Holding position, help please

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk

Registered
My first ever posting here. I've been hugely enjoying reading everyone's words for a few days, and now it's time to take the plunge myself.

Please take a look at the table layout below

CueTable Help



As you can see, the 1 is my break ball and I've tried to land straight on the 2 as my key ball (or even slightly on the other side). Unfortunately I'm just a fraction on the wrong side, so even if I cheat the pocket, I'll be drifting so that I end up straighter on my break ball than I want to be. (If my diagram doesn't make it look like to much of a problem, then please assume it would be.)

So here's my question:

(1) How should this be played to hold position, to maintain MAXIMUM angle on the break ball? My instinct is to play this shot with soft draw and outside english to spin the 2 ball into the pocket. Not to draw back, but just to hold position where I am.

But is this really the best way to hold position?

And let's say, for the sake of argument, I'm right, that spinning the ball in is the best way to hold. Is this still true if I have a larger angle? Would you ever use inside english to hold position?

And is a little draw better than a little follow? (I think stun is clearly out of the question.)

It seems to me this shot comes up all over the table in many, many different situations. That's why I also wonder if larger angles require different approaches.

Thanks in advance for any help.
 
D

Dave Nelson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi Monk

I'm not a good player and I don't know how to use cue table but I would play that shot with inside english to go to the head rail come off the rail toward the side pocket and stop at the desired position. You might even try enough english to go two rails to your desired position.

Dave Nelson
 
TSW

TSW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe it's because I'm a 9-ball player, but I'd follow to the end rail and back with a touch of inside english:

Edit: Dave beat me to it. The two-rail follow is good too depending on the exact angle.

CueTable Help

 
Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk

Registered
Dave Nelson said:
Hi Monk

I'm not a good player and I don't know how to use cue table but I would play that shot with inside english to go to the head rail come off the rail toward the side pocket and stop at the desired position. You might even try enough english to go two rails to your desired position.

Dave Nelson
Click to expand...

Thanks Dave. Oh, absolutely there are other ways to play it. Perhaps I should have spent more time making a diagram that would have taken those options out (I should have made it a secondary break shot, say, with balls in my way and the only option being to hold the ball as close to the 2 as possible.)

Because that's the part I'm really interested in -- holding the ball as close to the object ball as you can. What's the best technique?
 
TSW

TSW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thelonious Monk said:
Thanks Dave. Oh, absolutely there are other ways to play it. Perhaps I should have spent more time making a diagram that would have taken those options out (I should have made it a secondary break shot, say, with balls in my way and the only option being to hold the ball as close to the 2 as possible.)

Because that's the part I'm really interested in -- holding the ball as close to the object ball as you can. What's the best technique?
Click to expand...

That's a slightly different question and you might do well to post it in the main forum. That gets more traffic by the physics crowd (Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, etc.).

I like doing it the way you described - soft draw/drag with maximum left english to hit the object ball as full as possible and use the spin to throw it into the pocket. But I can't tell you exactly why that's the best way (if it even is), and the more science-minded posters can.
 
Ratta

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
Hussa :)

If the constellation of the shown keyball and cueball is exactly like shown with the cuetable-diagram there s ( in my opinion ) the best way probably the follow-shot with a bit right-hand english to come into a nice angle for your break-shot.
The other *balls* which could perhaps work would be very hard to shoot- Follow with a bit right-hand-english should be the easiest way to pocket and get into position for your break.
Keep the game as simple as possible :) (and sooo often the first idea is the best :p )

The shot really looks more difficult as it is- no need to hit the ball too hard- just a smooth stroke with medium speed is enough!
lg
Ingo
 
BayGene

BayGene

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Inside Right

Follow up to the foot rail with enough speed to get shape. Play it two rails (bottom-side) to get closer.
 
alphadog

alphadog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Set up shots like this and try to move your cueball into position thru different uses of high or low,more or less english.See what the maximum
amount of "bend" you are able to obtain.Try this on other tables and see
if your results are the same.When I play a shot like you have shown, I want to know if I have to slow roll the ball like you suggest, or hit it with
high inside,or even go three rails for shape using center ball to turn the
cue ball path out a liittle.Good luck with your practice! Jack
 
Last edited:
D

Dave Nelson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I could use a little help. I tried to print the cue table so I could take it down to my table and work on it. I know that I have done this in the past but now I can't make it print.

Dave Nelson
 
Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk

Registered
OK, below shows how I really should have done the diagram to take one or two rail position out of it. (Sorry, my first post, I'll learn to be more specific in future.)

So now (below) I'm getting to the heart of it I hope -- in general, when you hold for position, how do you MINIMIZE cue ball drift.

CueTable Help

 
Blackjack

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
Thelonious Monk said:
OK, below shows how I really should have done the diagram to take one or two rail position out of it. (Sorry, my first post, I'll learn to be more specific in future.)

So now (below) I'm getting to the heart of it I hope -- in general, when you hold for position, how do you MINIMIZE cue ball drift.

CueTable Help

Click to expand...

You have to learn how to "cinch" the ball ... this requires a smooth stroke on the bottom of the ball at its axis. When "cinching" the ball, you are sending the object ball to the desired pocket while manipulating the cue ball away from the natural position path - or stopping the cue ball abruptly.

In this shot, you would cinch the ball inward to the shot, or manipulate the ball to stop on impact by spinning to the inside of the shot. EVen if you do that, you will be left with too much angle, and as others have already said, you need to follow to get on the 1 as your break ball.

"Cinching" sounds like a Greek language course if you don't know how to do it - it is much easier to demonstrate than it is to explain.

In your second diagram, I'd double check to see if that 11 ball is dead in that lower left corner, or I would pocket the 2 and nudge the 4-5, then try to get a good angle on the 1 ball for a secondary break shot. The 15-10 is easy to deal with, and more times than not (the way you have them set up in this layout) you can get the two-for-one special. (see below diagram - 3 pages)

CueTable Help

 
3andstop

3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
I may be completely misunderstanding the question, but I think your diagram confuses the issue a tad because when players look at it, they are thinking in terms of getting through the rack, when what I think you are asking is how to simply stop the CB when a shot (any shot) is not straight in. When there is a slight angle.

If I'm right, then the method would be a very practiced way of shooting straight on to the shot, hitting it full, aiming it at the short rail, and then twisting it in using left hand english which diminishes the angle.

Its easy to dog this type stroke and find yourself loosing the CB to some extra forward roll. You can twirl it a bit more with slow speed and fast spin but you have to kind of nip stop it. LOL . . . hard to explain. The farther the CB is from the OB the tougher it is.

This kind of shot come up all the time in straight pool when you are in the middle of the rack touching balls into pockets at closer range.

Of course the way to get on the break shot is to follow it just as Dave suggested using the RH english.
 
Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk

Registered
3andstop said:
I may be completely misunderstanding the question, but I think your diagram confuses the issue a tad because when players look at it, they are thinking in terms of getting through the rack, when what I think you are asking is how to simply stop the CB when a shot (any shot) is not straight in. When there is a slight angle.

If I'm right, then the method would be a very practiced way of shooting straight on to the shot, hitting it full, aiming it at the short rail, and then twisting it in using left hand english which diminishes the angle.

Its easy to dog this type stroke and find yourself loosing the CB to some extra forward roll. You can twirl it a bit more with slow speed and fast spin but you have to kind of nip stop it. LOL . . . hard to explain. The farther the CB is from the OB the tougher it is.

This kind of shot come up all the time in straight pool when you are in the middle of the rack touching balls into pockets at closer range.

Of course the way to get on the break shot is to follow it just as Dave suggested using the RH english.
Click to expand...

You're dead right, 3andstop, my diagram did nothing but confuse. And you're also right again, I'm really asking how to (almost) stop the shot when you have a bit of an angle.

And yes, it comes up all the time in the straight pool in many different situations. One of the reasons I ask is because of the following situation. (Hopefully my diagram won't confuse this time.

CueTable Help


I saw Steve Lipsky in a straight pool situation much like the above.

Personally I would have tried to spin the 4 ball in, low outside english to hold as straight as I could for the 1 ball (I want to be straight as I can to hold for the break ball).

However, and I may be mistaken here, I think Steve Lipsky played this with high inside english, to roll forward and hold, the complete opposite to what I would have guessed.

So this made me wonder, does the best method for holding as close as you can to an object ball depend upon the angle? If I'm just a tiny fraction off straight I can spin it in with low outside english and stop. But if I have a little bit of a larger angle, I need to change the approach (to high-inside, say).

But this is just me conjecturing wildly and hoping someone has an authoritative answer.

This is probably boring to most people, but it's the tiny-weeny nuances like this that make pool, and especially straight pool, so fascinating to me. Perhaps I'm odd.
 
TSW

TSW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thelonious Monk said:
I saw Steve Lipsky in a straight pool situation much like the above.

Personally I would have tried to spin the 4 ball in, low outside english to hold as straight as I could for the 1 ball (I want to be straight as I can to hold for the break ball).

However, and I may be mistaken here, I think Steve Lipsky played this with high inside english, to roll forward and hold, the complete opposite to what I would have guessed.

So this made me wonder, does the best method for holding as close as you can to an object ball depend upon the angle? If I'm just a tiny fraction off straight I can spin it in with low outside english and stop. But if I have a little bit of a larger angle, I need to change the approach (to high-inside, say).

But this is just me conjecturing wildly and hoping someone has an authoritative answer.

This is probably boring to most people, but it's the tiny-weeny nuances like this that make pool, and especially straight pool, so fascinating to me. Perhaps I'm odd.
Click to expand...


Again, I think the situation you diagrammed is slightly different than your question. Remember that the position zone on the 1-ball opens up in a "V" shape as you get further away from the 1. And here you want to stay as straight on the 1 as possible.

Take a look at cue balls A and B below. Cue ball A is a soft follow shot, and B is a not-perfectly-executed soft draw/drag shot with maximum right hand spin. B involves less movement of the cue ball but is not as good of an angle for the 1.

If I were shooting this I'd go with the soft follow to point A. As diagrammed, I think it is possible to shoot the draw/spin shot and hold the cue ball before reaching point B, but it's hard. If you're a little bit off, you get to point B and then you're out of line on the key ball. So IMO the follow is a risk-avoidance shot as well as being simpler to execute.

I'm not sure if this matches exactly to the situation Steve had, but I'm sure that whichever way he shot it was the right way for that layout.

CueTable Help

 
Last edited:
Steve Lipsky

Steve Lipsky

On quest for perfect 14.1
Silver Member
I wish I had more insightful information here but I don't think my angle was quite that severe. I remember the situation well, and I remember that I was juuuuust barely out of line on the 4. The main thing I did was hit it to the outside of the pocket (side pockets from that angle are quite big) with probably a touch of right english.

I also knew that if need be, I could do something similar on the 1 - with even less risk than on the 4 because it wouldn't be so bad if I had to roll slightly towards the breakball anyway. So with this knowledge, the urgency for hitting the 4 perfectly was eased a bit.

- Steve
 
BayGene

BayGene

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Non-Pool Question

Hey, Thelonius.

Did you ever see himself-Melodious Thunk-in person?
 
JimS

JimS

Grandpa & his grand boys.
Silver Member
Thelonious Monk said:
My first ever posting here. I've been hugely enjoying reading everyone's words for a few days, and now it's time to take the plunge myself.

Please take a look at the table layout below

CueTable Help



As you can see, the 1 is my break ball and I've tried to land straight on the 2 as my key ball (or even slightly on the other side). Unfortunately I'm just a fraction on the wrong side, so even if I cheat the pocket, I'll be drifting so that I end up straighter on my break ball than I want to be. (If my diagram doesn't make it look like to much of a problem, then please assume it would be.)

So here's my question:

(1) How should this be played to hold position, to maintain MAXIMUM angle on the break ball? My instinct is to play this shot with soft draw and outside english to spin the 2 ball into the pocket. Not to draw back, but just to hold position where I am.

But is this really the best way to hold position?

And let's say, for the sake of argument, I'm right, that spinning the ball in is the best way to hold. Is this still true if I have a larger angle? Would you ever use inside english to hold position?

And is a little draw better than a little follow? (I think stun is clearly out of the question.)

It seems to me this shot comes up all over the table in many, many different situations. That's why I also wonder if larger angles require different approaches.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Click to expand...
I don't care if you can play or not... you got the best screen name!

Best pianist ever... imho.
 
JimS

JimS

Grandpa & his grand boys.
Silver Member
Blackjack said:
You have to learn how to "cinch" the ball ... this requires a smooth stroke on the bottom of the ball at its axis. When "cinching" the ball, you are sending the object ball to the desired pocket while manipulating the cue ball away from the natural position path - or stopping the cue ball abruptly.

In this shot, you would cinch the ball inward to the shot, or manipulate the ball to stop on impact by spinning to the inside of the shot. EVen if you do that, you will be left with too much angle, and as others have already said, you need to follow to get on the 1 as your break ball.

"Cinching" sounds like a Greek language course if you don't know how to do it - it is much easier to demonstrate than it is to explain.

In your second diagram, I'd double check to see if that 11 ball is dead in that lower left corner, or I would pocket the 2 and nudge the 4-5, then try to get a good angle on the 1 ball for a secondary break shot. The 15-10 is easy to deal with, and more times than not (the way you have them set up in this layout) you can get the two-for-one special. (see below diagram - 3 pages)

CueTable Help

Click to expand...

I'm just real happy to be seeing an occasional post from you. I hear you might have a straight pool book available some day? :groucho:
 
Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk

Registered
JimS said:
I'm just real happy to be seeing an occasional post from you. I hear you might have a straight pool book available some day? :groucho:
Click to expand...

Hi JimS and BayGene,

No, BayGene, I never got to see the great Thelonious Monk. I was 10 years old when he died. If someone had said 'jazz' to me, I'd have thought, 'great, someone's come out with a new candy bar'.

But that's what time machines are going to be invented for, right?

And yes, JimS, I'm planning a billiards book, ghostwriting it for the real Thelonious Monk from beyond the grave. [Danger! Jazz in-joke alert.] It's going to be called 'Straight Pool, No Chaser'.

Apologies to everyone for the change in subject, but jazz and pool really should go together more often. Undoubtedly two of the greatest American inventions. And I say this as a foreigner from a land in which snooker is considered the higher calling.

If anyone has ever thought to themself, 'maybe I should listen to some jazz one day', you could do a lot worse than starting off gently with Thelonious Monk's 'Best of the Blue Note Years', or if you don't like compilations, the incomaparable 'Brilliant Corners'.

Now back to the pool.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top