what makes 'em stick?

wigglybridge

wigglybridge

14.1 straight pool!
Silver Member
i get to play in 3 rooms, all quite a drive:

(1) Ivory Billiards in Holyoke MA. immaculate GCs & Anniversaries with Simonis, good balls (older aramith, i think) usually clean but not polished.
(2) dumpy bar in Brattleboro VT. one beattoshit 9' noname, cloth was once nappy but now worn thin, absolutely filthy, cheapshit non-plastic-type balls look like they've hit the bare floor a thousand times (they have)
(3) McCue's in Keene NH. Connelley tables with nasty pockets, reasonably fast cloth of unknown type, balls are unlike others i've seen, with a Helvetica-like font, but often clean & polished. tables not as dirty as (2), but not real clean

so, 3 questions:

(a) why do i have such a struggle getting the pack apart at (3), even more than at (2)? i hit a Great break shot and there's still 10 balls stuck like glue!
(b) what physical factors make the biggest difference in breaking clusters?
(c) does the type of ball make such a difference that it overcomes how clean/polished they are?

i can't see myself carrying a set of aramith around, but it sure is frustrating trying to play in 2 & 3, especially because they're the ones i can get to more often, before or after a sound gig. i swear one night in (3) i was playing like Mosconi & Hohmann's lovechild, and the best i could manage was 21.
 
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3andstop

3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
I'm sure there is a technical way of measuring this, and I'm sure it has to do with mfg process and material as well, but ... you can take two balls that weigh the same, are the same size, and drop them from the same height onto the same surface and they can bounce entirely differently. One may bounce way up while the other thuds like a hard boiled egg. :shrug:

Dunno exactly why but the elasticity in the plastics must have a lot to do with it.
 
dmgwalsh

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
wigglybridge said:
i get to play in 3 rooms, all quite a drive:

(1) Ivory Billiards in Holyoke MA. immaculate GCs & Anniversaries with Simonis, good balls (older aramith, i think) usually clean but not polished.
(2) dumpy bar in Brattleboro VT. one beattoshit 9' noname, cloth was once nappy but now worn thin, absolutely filthy, balls look like they've hit the bare floor a thousand times (they have)
(3) McCue's in Keene NH. Connelley tables with nasty pockets, reasonably fast cloth of unknown type, balls are unlike others i've seen, with a Helvetica-like font, but often clean & polished. tables not as dirty as (2), but not real clean

so, 3 questions:

(a) why do i have such a struggle getting the pack apart at (3), even more than at (2)? i hit a Great break shot and there's still 10 balls stuck like glue!
(b) what physical factors make the biggest difference in breaking clusters?
(c) does the type of ball make such a difference that it overcomes how clean/polished they are?

i can't see myself carrying a set of aramith around, but it sure is frustrating trying to play in 2 & 3, especially because they're the ones i can get to more often, before or after a sound gig. i swear one night in (3) i was playing like Mosconi & Hohmann's lovechild, and the best i could manage was 21.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Bill. I don't know the answer either.

When I went to a little seminar on 14.1 held by John Schmidt at Derby about 5 years ago, he said, make sure your table is clean. Wipe it down with a wet rag. And make sure the balls are clean. It will make a big difference in how well the balls come apart.

A few months later, we were lucky enough to entice Bobby Hunter to join our league at the Illinois Billiard Club. He looked at the beat up balls that we had and complained about them. I ordered a new set of centennials and brought them in for him to use while he was in the league. (I was videoing his matches and I wanted our members to see his best game) He actually was very particular about using good balls and making sure they were clean. He even told us the brand of product to use to clean the balls. I forget the name. We used for a while but no longer being made, so now I have graduated to Novus.

After Bobby left the league, I figured I might as well start using the balls and started bringing them in. Since that time, 7 or 8 other guys in the league got their own sets, got ballcleaners to use at home, and have used various products to clean the balls. We think it is necessary to have good equipment if you are looking for good runs.

My two cents.
 
michael4

michael4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
wigglybridge said:
i was playing like Mosconi & Hohmann's lovechild,
Click to expand...

I now have a terrible image in my head that I must get rid of :D

more seriously, I dont have a good answer to your questions, but I just read a lot about cue balls and their weight, etc. Curious, Is there any difference in the cue balls between the locations?
 
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wigglybridge

wigglybridge

14.1 straight pool!
Silver Member
Michael, i think the upshot of the cue ball weight discussion was that there Shouldn't be any difference within _current_ Aramith, but uncertain how it works in real life given time & history.

the cueballs at Ivory are blue circle. the one at the bar is a red aramith logo, although the rest of the balls are some weird stuff. the ones at McCue's seem like they go with the set, but as i said, i've never seen this type of ball before; they look more modern than the ones at the bar, but are some different material than aramith.

but it's a good question; i wonder if that's part of what's going on.
 
wigglybridge

wigglybridge

14.1 straight pool!
Silver Member
Dennis, i found in another thread elsewhere in AZland that Schmidt recommends Brillianize (for sure) for routine use, and the Aramith cleaner (if i remember right) for heavy-duty situations.

when i was scoring for him at Valley Forge, he was putting the balls through the Diamond cleaner about every 3rd rack, as was Bobby Chamberlain.

i do remember that at Ivory, one fellow there polished the living snot out of one set, and one night when i couldn't run a rack i moved to that table (they keep balls by table) and almost immediately ran 25, which is about my best speed. most of the time, the balls there are clean, but reasonably dull-looking; in this case, they were mirror-shiny, and came apart wonderfully.

maybe a set of balls should be on my shopping list...

...hmmm, just visited the Seyberts site, and the ones at McCue's (where i have the biggest problem) are definitely the Aramith Standard Billiard Balls, also called Aramith Crown Belgian on some sites.
 
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Samiel

Samiel

Sea Player
Silver Member
Dirty balls and dirty tables = tough to run. Most of the places I play at have tough to run equipment. It's amazing how much it matters. It's tough to run racks when you hit great break shots but have to work out 3-4 clusters every time.

Case in point... last Tuesday before league I was practicing 14.1 and I started out with good break shots and nailed rack hard each time, but the equipment was such that their'd be a big blob of 4-8 balls stuck each time. It's tough to run a lot of balls that way (at my level anyhow).
 
zencues.com

zencues.com

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's the dirty tables and balls...

I always take three or four napkins and just kind of polish the balls clean including the cue ball before I start play.
It helps a lot. Only takes about three minutes too.
 
stevekur1

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
Bob I highly recommend that you pick up a set for yourself. Nothing beats an evenly matched set of balls. It has made a world of difference for me. I notice it when I have to play in a league match and have to switch over to a mix match set of centenials.
If you are gonna pick up a set. I recommend going one step further and picking up a delta rack with inserts of course...to go with it.... Wow !!!!!!!

Steve


wigglybridge said:
Dennis, i found in another thread elsewhere in AZland that Schmidt recommends Brillianize (for sure) for routine use, and the Aramith cleaner (if i remember right) for heavy-duty situations.

when i was scoring for him at Valley Forge, he was putting the balls through the Diamond cleaner about every 3rd rack, as was Bobby Chamberlain.

i do remember that at Ivory, one fellow there polished the living snot out of one set, and one night when i couldn't run a rack i moved to that table (they keep balls by table) and almost immediately ran 25, which is about my best speed. most of the time, the balls there are clean, but reasonably dull-looking; in this case, they were mirror-shiny, and came apart wonderfully.

maybe a set of balls should be on my shopping list...

...hmmm, just visited the Seyberts site, and the ones at McCue's (where i have the biggest problem) are definitely the Aramith Standard Billiard Balls, also called Aramith Crown Belgian on some sites.
Click to expand...
 
dmgwalsh

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
wigglybridge said:
Dennis, i found in another thread elsewhere in AZland that Schmidt recommends Brillianize (for sure) for routine use, and the Aramith cleaner (if i remember right) for heavy-duty situations.

when i was scoring for him at Valley Forge, he was putting the balls through the Diamond cleaner about every 3rd rack, as was Bobby Chamberlain.
Click to expand...

John was doing a seminar and demonstration near Chicago a few years back and I was going down to watch. Marop told John and he told me to bring those Centennials of mine down polished with Brillianize.

We have since graduated to Novus. Novus lasts longer. We usually avoid cleaning the cue ball with Novus or Brillianize. Aramith cleaner for the cue ball only. Otherwise, the cue ball gets so slick it is hard to control.
 
S

Shaky1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
dmgwalsh said:
John was doing a seminar and demonstration near Chicago a few years back and I was going down to watch. Marop told John and he told me to bring those Centennials of mine down polished with Brillianize.

We have since graduated to Novus. Novus lasts longer. We usually avoid cleaning the cue ball with Novus or Brillianize. Aramith cleaner for the cue ball only. Otherwise, the cue ball gets so slick it is hard to control.
Click to expand...

I have stopped making the polished cue ball mistake. Balls only now get polished. It makes a HUGE difference.
 
A

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
dmgwalsh said:
John was doing a seminar and demonstration near Chicago a few years back and I was going down to watch. Marop told John and he told me to bring those Centennials of mine down polished with Brillianize.

We have since graduated to Novus. Novus lasts longer. We usually avoid cleaning the cue ball with Novus or Brillianize. Aramith cleaner for the cue ball only. Otherwise, the cue ball gets so slick it is hard to control.
Click to expand...

Brillianize and Novus -- do they comply with WPA equipment specs? Should any high-run record set using such a polish be, at least, "asterisked"?

16. Balls and Ball Rack
All balls must be composed of cast phenolic resin plastic and measure 2 ¼ (+.005) inches [5.715 cm (+ .127 mm)] in diameter and weigh 5 ½ to 6 oz [156 to 170 gms]. Balls should be unpolished, and should also not be waxed. Balls should be cleaned with a towel or cloth free of dirt and dust, and may also be washed with soap and water. Balls contaminated with any slippery substance - treated with a polishing or rubbing compound and/or waxed - must be cleansed and dewaxed with a clean cloth moistened with diluted alcohol before play.​
 
dmgwalsh

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
AtLarge said:
Brillianize and Novus -- do they comply with WPA equipment specs? Should any high-run record set using such a polish be, at least, "asterisked"?

16. Balls and Ball Rack
All balls must be composed of cast phenolic resin plastic and measure 2 ¼ (+.005) inches [5.715 cm (+ .127 mm)] in diameter and weigh 5 ½ to 6 oz [156 to 170 gms]. Balls should be unpolished, and should also not be waxed. Balls should be cleaned with a towel or cloth free of dirt and dust, and may also be washed with soap and water. Balls contaminated with any slippery substance - treated with a polishing or rubbing compound and/or waxed - must be cleansed and dewaxed with a clean cloth moistened with diluted alcohol before play.​
Click to expand...

You may be right. But I figure I am not going to be breaking too many high run records. If it was good enough for Mosconi to play with polished balls, it is good enough for me. I only have a certain number of days on this planet to enjoy the challenge of playing 14.1 and I want the conditions to be the best that they can.
 
wigglybridge

wigglybridge

14.1 straight pool!
Silver Member
this is a naive -- not sarcastic or loaded -- question; i honestly don't know the answer.

how many 14.1 events does the WPA hold?

just as an observation, i doubt that they could claim that using a brand new set of balls would break the rules, and polishing of this sort gets the balls back to brand new condition, i would think.
 
A

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
wigglybridge said:
this is a naive -- not sarcastic or loaded -- question; i honestly don't know the answer.

how many 14.1 events does the WPA hold?

just as an observation, i doubt that they could claim that using a brand new set of balls would break the rules, and polishing of this sort gets the balls back to brand new condition, i would think.
Click to expand...

I think Dragon Promotions' "World" 14.1 event has been blessed by the WPA some years and not other years. I'm not aware of any other official WPA 14.1 event, although other events could be played under WPA rules.

As to polishing -- that's not the same as restoring new condition. A polish adds a slick coating to the ball that can make it play a bit differently from an unpolished ball (even a new one).
 
dmgwalsh

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
wigglybridge said:
Dennis, i see there are 3 different "numbers" of Novus: 1, 2, & 3. which one do you use?
Click to expand...

Novus 1. Non abrasive. Here is a link for a good price. I bought a couple of the big boys and shared.

http://www.delviesplastics.com/mm5/...Store_Code=DPI&Category_Code=Plastic_Cleaners

p.s.

The WPA has not sanctioned many US 14.1 tournaments lately. Money being the way it is in pool these days, I would not predict anything in the near future either.

I am , however, always willing to be surprised. :smile:
 
3andstop

3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
Just a thought on ball cleaning liquids. I used to use this stuff all the time. I used it on my motorcycle windshield. It was cheaper and ya got a lot more. Figuring it was for clear plastic like motorcycle windshields, it wouldn't leave a film.

Anyway, it worked pretty good, but a friend of mind gave me some of that Aramith ball cleaner. I never wanted to use it because I thought the extra money was a rip off, but, and I gotta say, it's only slightly more, and you get slightly less, it's true, but it worked better. With the amount you need to use it will last forever anyway. Somehow the balls stayed cleaner longer, and they had a better shine to them.
 
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