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  (#196)
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10-02-2014, 06:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Renfro View Post
I'm your huckleberry.......

But on a "hey I hit the ball 30 times without a misscue" test Balabushak is going to crush us both... They have the largest abrasives on the market.... Good thing that's not the only thing that chalk is graded on......
Doubt it. But give it a whirl. I sent dr, dave the magic chalk cause it fears no other brand and I knew the results would be off the charts. I tested myself and posted it in the MF a few months back.....I went 56 shows before miscue
  
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  (#197)
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10-02-2014, 06:38 AM

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Originally Posted by The Renfro View Post
I have the magic chalk here and have looked at it under the microscope... Really hard to tell it from the blue diamond... The micron size of the abrasives on average is the same with a similar ratio...
Maybe the abrasive has different properties (strength, hardness, texture, or shape).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Renfro View Post
Was the test performed in the same room on the same table?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Renfro View Post
Had it rained or was the humidity different between the days of testing...
It did rain that day, which is unusual for Colorado. I'll retest both the Master and Magic Chalk today to see if there is any diffference. Today is a typical dry Colorado day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Renfro View Post
How much more play had your tip gotten since the last test....
None. My chalk-test cue (Predator 314 with the stock tip ... LePro I think) had not been used between any of the tests, nor has it been used since.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Renfro View Post
I would have expected it to perform about the same as the blue diamond and would have expected the Kamui to have ourperformed all others in this particular test just because of what I have seen and experienced with them all...
I was also very surprised by the results. Again, I'll run another set of tests today (if I can find the time) just to confirm.

Catch you later,
Dave
  
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Old
  (#198)
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10-02-2014, 06:46 AM

Thanks for taking the time to do this. It was good and some of the results were not what I was expecting.


-H

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I'm really a sh!t pool player and you probably shouldn't listen to any advice I may give.
  
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  (#199)
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10-02-2014, 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Maybe the abrasive has different properties (strength, hardness, texture, or shape).

Yes.

It did rain that day, which is unusual for Colorado. I'll retest both the Master and Magic Chalk today to see if there is any diffference. Today is a typical dry Colorado day.


None. My chalk-test cue (Predator 314 with the stock tip ... LePro I think) had not been used between any of the tests, nor has it been used since.

I was also very surprised by the results. Again, I'll run another set of tests today (if I can find the time) just to confirm.

Catch you later,
Dave
Your time and efforts are appreciated

Chris


Get off the layered tip bandwagon. Ki-Tech!!!

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  (#200)
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10-02-2014, 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
chalk: average number of shots before miscue
Master: 8
pre-flag: 8
Lava: 9
Blue Diamond: 11
Kamui: 15
Silver Cup: 7
Magic Chalk: 29!!!
I just did another set of tests to see if things change much from one day to the next, and with slightly different conditions (today was much drier than on the day of the previous tests) and procedures (with cleaning chalk marks, and with how much chalk was applied). I did two sets of tests with each chalk and averaged the results. The results are listed in the order the tests were performed. Again, I was careful to completely remove the chalk and scuff the tip between each set of tests. Here's what I got:

With vigorously rubbing (with my finger and finger nail) and wiping (with cloth) the chalk marks off the CB after each shot (NOTE - With the first set of tests summarized above, I was just wiping the marks off after each shot):

chalk: number of shots before miscue
Magic Chalk: 21, 17 - avg: 19
Kamui: 17, 15 - avg: 16
Master: 13, 10 - avg: 11.5
Silver Cup: 9, 10 avg: 9.5

Then I tried another set of tests with the Magic Chalk, applying more chalk than normal to the tip, and then only wiping (and not vigorously rubbing) the chalk mark of the CB after each shot. This time, I got:

chalk: number of shots before miscue
Magic Chalk: 25, 29 - avg: 27

I would have liked to have tested all of the chalks under various conditions, but I have already put in far too much time into the project. Maybe some other people can do similar careful experiments and report their results. It is not that difficult, it just takes lots of time.

These new results taught me several things:

- How the CB is cleaned between each shot seems to make a difference

- Hitting the CB in the same place every time (and not cleaning thoroughly) might result in some chalk particles being retained on the CB in addition to on the tip.

- Results might vary with the amount of chalk first applied to the tip.

- Robot tests results would be useful, where as many variables as possible could be eliminated. But tip preparation, chalking, and ball cleaning would still need to be done very carefully and consistently.

Regardless, I think the main conclusions in the video are still accurate.

To me, here's the bottom line: If you chalk before every shot, the type of chalk doesn't seem to make much difference. However, if you forget to chalk, or don't like to chalk often, or don't chalk effectively, and if you miscue often, then you might prefer one of the chalks that remains effective on the tip longer. Magic Chalk still seems to be the best in this category (with Kamui 2nd best, and Blue Diamond also good).

Regards,
Dave
  
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  (#201)
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10-02-2014, 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
To me, here's the bottom line: If you chalk before every shot, the type of chalk doesn't seem to make much difference. However, if you forget to chalk, or don't like to chalk often, or don't chalk effectively, and if you miscue often, then you might prefer one of the chalks that remains effective on the tip longer.
Thanks for your work dave.

I do think it's important to mention that you found a downside to the stickier chalk: That it stays on the cue ball longer (thus perhaps increasing the chance of a skid), and also that it throws more, so if you're unlucky enough that the CB-OB contact point is right on a chalk mark, you're likely to get a worse reaction.

Maybe you're (understandably) reluctant to be too critical of a product, but IMO the lesson is to avoid the sticky chalks and just make sure you chalk up enough.
  
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  (#202)
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10-02-2014, 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
... To me, here's the bottom line: If you chalk before every shot, the type of chalk doesn't seem to make much difference. However, if you forget to chalk, or don't like to chalk often, or don't chalk effectively, and if you miscue often, then you might prefer one of the chalks that remains effective on the tip longer. ...
I think it is useful to note that the importance of not miscuing depends on your level of play. For the vast majority of players, miscuing one shot out of 200 is no big deal. For a top player that same miscue rate might double the rate of mistakes and misses. A similar situation holds for skids. If you are 80% to pocket the typical shot, one skid in 200 shots is lost in the large randomness of the direction you send the object ball. (I think many players don't even notice when a skid occurs.) For someone who might miss one shot per hour when they are playing well, skids are fearsome things.


Bob Jewett
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  (#203)
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10-02-2014, 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
To me, here's the bottom line: If you chalk before every shot, the type of chalk doesn't seem to make much difference. However, if you forget to chalk, or don't like to chalk often, or don't chalk effectively, and if you miscue often, then you might prefer one of the chalks that remains effective on the tip longer. Magic Chalk still seems to be the best in this category (with Kamui 2nd best, and Blue Diamond also good).
Thanks for your work dave.

I do think it's important to mention that you found a downside to the stickier chalk: That it stays on the cue ball longer (thus perhaps increasing the chance of a skid), and also that it throws more, so if you're unlucky enough that the CB-OB contact point is right on a chalk mark, you're likely to get a worse reaction.

Maybe you're (understandably) reluctant to be too critical of a product, but IMO the lesson is to avoid the sticky chalks and just make sure you chalk up enough.
Excellent point. I agree 100%. An increased risk of cling/skid/kick is a major issue, especially for a top player.

Based on all of the results, I would say the best chalk tested is the Magic Chalk. It doesn't seem to be as "sticky" as Kamui and Blue Diamond, and it has the best persistence with infrequent or inadequate chalking.

Regards,
Dave
  
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  (#204)
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10-02-2014, 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think it is useful to note that the importance of not miscuing depends on your level of play. For the vast majority of players, miscuing one shot out of 200 is no big deal. For a top player that same miscue rate might double the rate of mistakes and misses. A similar situation holds for skids. If you are 80% to pocket the typical shot, one skid in 200 shots is lost in the large randomness of the direction you send the object ball. (I think many players don't even notice when a skid occurs.) For someone who might miss one shot per hour when they are playing well, skids are fearsome things.
Excellent points. I agree 100% (as is usually the case with your posts).

Regards,
Dave
  
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  (#205)
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10-02-2014, 12:39 PM

Dr Dave, I think all of these companies need to cut you a check for you time and efforts. Oh, let's not forget about free advertising....LOL. Thanks for taking the time to do these tests. It's very much appreciated.
  
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  (#206)
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10-02-2014, 01:05 PM

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Originally Posted by Allen Brown View Post
Dr Dave, I think all of these companies need to cut you a check for you time and efforts. Oh, let's not forget about free advertising....LOL. Thanks for taking the time to do these tests. It's very much appreciated.
If anybody wants to cut me a check (as long as nothing is expected in return), I would be happy provide my mailing address.

Catch you later,
Dave
  
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  (#207)
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10-02-2014, 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Maybe the abrasive has different properties (strength, hardness, texture, or shape).
Ya think?


http://www.uama.org/Abrasives101/101Types.html


There are a bewildering number of abrasives, both naturally formed and manmade. Even in common sandpapers there are huge differences. Years ago somebody turned me on to the Carborundum Premier Red abrasive papers that are made in Canada and I haven't bought a sheet of 3M since then. Same chemical (aluminum oxide) but vastly different properties in use. Premier Red is to 3M as Magic Chalk is to Masters - it lasts and lasts by comparison.

One of the things about this paper (as explained to me by our distributor) is that the granules are sorted, heated to a high temperature, and then cooled rapidly. This causes any small stress lines in the granules to open up and fracture the granule into smaller pieces that are both more stable to further breakage and have sharper edges. After that the stuff is re-sifted and graded.

This all costs the company a lot of extra time and money, as well as reducing the yield of large grains (those are always the more expensive grades), so the paper costs more. But use it once and you are a believer for life, it's just that good. So, on paper (pun intended) both of these products use the same formula for their abrasives, but the one outperforms the other by a huge margin.
  
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  (#208)
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10-02-2014, 01:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think it is useful to note that the importance of not miscuing depends on your level of play. For the vast majority of players, miscuing one shot out of 200 is no big deal. For a top player that same miscue rate might double the rate of mistakes and misses.
Mike Dechaine miscued three times in a row during one of his matches at Turning Stone. Turns out it was a defective tip he has just had installed at the tourney (I was kind enough to go to the car and get my Gator Grip and let him borrow it for the rest of the time I was there), but if he was using a "grippier" chalk that held on to the tip better, maybe he wouldn't have miscued at all.

Of course, three miscues did little to hold Mike back. He went on to win that match 9-2 IIRC.
  
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  (#209)
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10-02-2014, 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think it is useful to note that the importance of not miscuing depends on your level of play. For the vast majority of players, miscuing one shot out of 200 is no big deal. For a top player that same miscue rate might double the rate of mistakes and misses. A similar situation holds for skids. If you are 80% to pocket the typical shot, one skid in 200 shots is lost in the large randomness of the direction you send the object ball. (I think many players don't even notice when a skid occurs.) For someone who might miss one shot per hour when they are playing well, skids are fearsome things.
I often see players blame a miscue on not chalking, when I can clearly see them trying to hit too far away from center. Often, hitting too high when they stand straight up before they stroke it too strongly.

And, when I miscue, they usually correct me by stating that I didn't chalk well enough. But I am almost always pushing the edge too far or stroking with extreme soft bottom with spin. Each time I know that it's my fault for trying to do too much. But, I would just be wasting my breathe by stating what seems obvious to me. So, I just smile and go on.
  
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  (#210)
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10-02-2014, 02:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernDraw View Post
I often see players blame a miscue on not chalking, when I can clearly see them trying to hit too far away from center. Often, hitting too high when they stand straight up before they stroke it too strongly.

And, when I miscue, they usually correct me by stating that I didn't chalk well enough. But I am almost always pushing the edge too far or stroking with extreme soft bottom with spin. Each time I know that it's my fault for trying to do too much. But, I would just be wasting my breathe by stating what seems obvious to me. So, I just smile and go on.
I think many people miscue from poor mechanics: tightening the grip during the stroke (especially with draw shots that turn into scoop jumps), turning or flicking the wrist, and/or swooping the stroke. And sometimes it is from not chalking or not chalking properly and carefully.

I like blaming it on the chalk when I miscue also.

Regards,
Dave
  
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