New Aiming System (Partial)

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precisepotting

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi Jeff,

I am stunned by your reply. I do believe that throw has a certain minimal effect but by a whole 23 degrees for a half -ball aim, that is astonishing (or rather shocking).

May I know how the test is done and how sure are you that you are hitting the exact spot on the half-ball aim point each time? I am concern especially since I hope to use the half-ball aim as one of my three aiming points.

Thanks for the heads up.
 
L

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Originally Posted by BC21
What is a half ball collision? Point of contact? This makes no sense. On a 1/2 ball shot, where we aim through center CB to split the tip on the outer edge/surface of the OB, the point of contact when the balls is exactly halfway between the center and the edge of the OB. If you aim then center of the CB to the 3/4 aim point (producing about a 15° cut shot) the actual point of contact is halfway between the center and the 3/4 aim point on the OB. It works this way on all cut shots...the point of contact is halfway between center OB and the aim point being used.

The angle produced from a specific cut shot does not change with distance. In other words, a 30° shot results in aiming center CB toward the edge of the OB. The distance between the balls makes no difference, because the 30° angle is measured like this: the apex of the angle is at the ghostball center, from there we draw a line through center OB toward the pocket and another line to the edge of the OB. It will be 30° everytime.

I too aim a double distance or halfway aiming system user except when the CB and OB are too close together for it isn't as accurate as when they are farther apart. I switch over to CP to CP aiming for thee (CPs) are easier to see when the balls are close together.

CLOSE 30 degrees.jpg
 
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C

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
precisepotting said:
Hi Jeff,

I am stunned by your reply. I do believe that throw has a certain minimal effect but by a whole 23 degrees for a half -ball aim, that is astonishing (or rather shocking).

May I know how the test is done and how sure are you that you are hitting the exact spot on the half-ball aim point each time? I am concern especially since I hope to use the half-ball aim as one of my three aiming points.

Thanks for the heads up.
Click to expand...

I was pretty "stunned" as well. Anyway, you can test it yourself. First, accurately mark cue ball and object ball positions (with hole reinforcements) to a target that would result in a 22 degree shot (theoretical 5/8 ball aim) to a distant pocket. But when shooting, don't aim at the 5/8 ball aim but take your aim at the half-ball edge instead. Try different speeds and vertical spins until you make the shot.

As for the upper extremes, set up a 39 degree (3/8 theoretical) shot (to a closer pocket because the shot will have to be soft) and do the same using different outside spins and soft speeds. If you can aim at the edge yet get the object ball heading toward the pocket, it means you've effectively increased the half ball angle to 39 degrees. You can try setting up an even steeper cut until you can't get the object ball heading toward the pocket anymore.

BTW, for the cue ball positions, I prefer to cut the hole reinforcements in half with the open end towards the object ball. This keeps any jumping of the cue ball out of the equation.

Edit: Also, for the sake of accuracy and ease during the test, try to keep the cueball to object ball distance low, maybe a foot or so.
 
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P

precisepotting

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
bluepepper said:
I was pretty "stunned" as well. Anyway, you can test it yourself. First, accurately mark cue ball and object ball positions (with hole reinforcements) to a target that would result in a 22 degree shot (theoretical 5/8 ball aim) to a distant pocket. But when shooting, don't aim at the 5/8 ball aim but take your aim at the half-ball edge instead. Try different speeds and vertical spins until you make the shot.

As for the upper extremes, set up a 39 degree (3/8 theoretical) shot (to a closer pocket because the shot will have to be soft) and do the same using different outside spins and soft speeds. If you can aim at the edge yet get the object ball heading toward the pocket, it means you've effectively increased the half ball angle to 39 degrees. You can try setting up an even steeper cut until you can't get the object ball heading toward the pocket anymore.

BTW, for the cue ball positions, I prefer to cut the hole reinforcements in half with the open end towards the object ball. This keeps any jumping of the cue ball out of the equation.

Edit: Also, for the sake of accuracy and ease during the test, try to keep the cueball to object ball distance low, maybe a foot or so.
Click to expand...

Hi Jeff,

Isn't a foot or so, too far for a test of accuracy. I fancy it should be a few millimeter. If side-spin is used, then care must be taken to make sure it still hits the half ball aimed marking (I believe you have the PP manual, so maybe it can help in hitting the right spot for side-spin shot).

I will probably try it out this weekend if I have the table for my use.
 
C

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
precisepotting said:
Hi Jeff,

Isn't a foot or so, too far for a test of accuracy. I fancy it should be a few millimeter. If side-spin is used, then care must be taken to make sure it still hits the half ball aimed marking (I believe you have the PP manual, so maybe it can help in hitting the right spot for side-spin shot).

I will probably try it out this weekend if I have the table for my use.
Click to expand...

You could certainly put the balls closer to one another, but you need room for cue follow through. I was just trying to suggest not putting them too far away from one another, because the closer they are the less of a chance your aim will be off. As for the soft side spin shots that determine the upper limits of angle, that can't be as accurate, because you have to pivot and/or slide your cue outside the line, and all cues will have different deflection.
 
BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
bluepepper said:
Just keep in mind that throw manipulates the theoretical angle in huge ways. In fact, I've set up a half-ball shot many times recently to see just how much it can be thrown. I've found that with just the right firm stun and my Aramith Tournament Ball set, I can reduce the angle from the theoretical 30 degrees down to about 22 degrees. And a soft shot with just the right side spin can increase the angle to, if I recall, even up to about 45 degrees. And this all with the same exact aim point and contact point.

What does this mean? It means that a half-ball aim can be used to cover a range of about 23 degrees worth of shots.

5/8 aim covers about as much ground, going from its theoretical 22 degrees down to about 15 degrees with just the right firm stun and way up to the 3/8 aim theoretical angle of 39 degrees.

3/8 aim also has a wide range, but maybe not as wide as the other two.

So, you might want to look at the range from 5/8 aim to 3/8 aim (cue outside edge at edge of object ball up to cue inside edge at edge of object ball) as covering about 35 degrees if necessary.

I think it's also very important to realize that stun and draw add more throw to shots, so if you're faced with, say, a 30 degree shot that you want to use stun or draw on, you have to aim outside the edge slightly. Even a 30 degree shot with follow will drag the angle down a few degrees to probably 27 or so because of the severity of throw around the edge ball aims.
Click to expand...

Yes sir. A player can fine tune aiming with just a small amount of english. Every 1/8 of a ball fractional aim changes the shot angle by about 7°, like the difference between a 5/8 and a 1/2 ball aim. Using 1/4 tip of english can add or subtract another 3 to 4 degrees, the equivalent of aiming a 16th thinner or thicker. A 1/2 tip of spin could get you an extra 5 to 7 degrees. Of course, different cues and table conditions are determining factors, as shaft deflection, CB squirt, and ball-to-ball friction varies. Maybe your cue gets a 7° angle change by using a quarter tip of spin instead of a half tip. ?? A full tip of left or right spin could alter the shot by as much as 10 to 15 degrees, which equates to a whole 1/4 fractional aim difference. The trick is to know and understand the effects caused by your specific cue when applying varying amounts of side spin. Here's an example: (you can fast-forward to 2:53 to avoid suffering my long-winded english tutorial)
https://youtu.be/iOHgrxLvMP8
 
P

precisepotting

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
bluepepper said:
You could certainly put the balls closer to one another, but you need room for cue follow through. I was just trying to suggest not putting them too far away from one another, because the closer they are the less of a chance your aim will be off. As for the soft side spin shots that determine the upper limits of angle, that can't be as accurate, because you have to pivot and/or slide your cue outside the line, and all cues will have different deflection.
Click to expand...

Hi Jeff,

Maybe I got the wrong person, but I thought I sent you my Precision Potting Manual earlier. If you have read it and tried it out, then you can't say that you won't be as accurate with soft spin. You can.
 
P

precisepotting

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BC21 said:
Yes sir. A player can fine tune aiming with just a small amount of english. Every 1/8 of a ball fractional aim changes the shot angle by about 7°, like the difference between a 5/8 and a 1/2 ball aim. Using 1/4 tip of english can add or subtract another 3 to 4 degrees, the equivalent of aiming a 16th thinner or thicker. A 1/2 tip of spin could get you an extra 5 to 7 degrees. Of course, different cues and table conditions are determining factors, as shaft deflection, CB squirt, and ball-to-ball friction varies. Maybe your cue gets a 7° angle change by using a quarter tip of spin instead of a half tip. ?? A full tip of left or right spin could alter the shot by as much as 10 to 15 degrees, which equates to a whole 1/4 fractional aim difference. The trick is to know and understand the effects caused by your specific cue when applying varying amounts of side spin. Here's an example: (you can fast-forward to 2:53 to avoid suffering my long-winded english tutorial)
https://youtu.be/iOHgrxLvMP8
Click to expand...

I personally do not subscribe to this line of thought. A throw effect is due to some latent momentum being transfer to OB. It will be minimal unless CB is a lot heavier than OB.

The spin on the cue ball will create a counter spin on the object but again very minimal unless the two balls have rough surfaces.

To get the amount of throw from what you have said is "a little too much" to accept. If that is true, then we will have no confidence in making the OB even though it is struck exactly on the opposie side of the pocket. Maybe I have misunderstood what you have been saying. If so, sorry.
 
C

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BC21 said:
Yes sir. A player can fine tune aiming with just a small amount of english. Every 1/8 of a ball fractional aim changes the shot angle by about 7°, like the difference between a 5/8 and a 1/2 ball aim. Using 1/4 tip of english can add or subtract another 3 to 4 degrees, the equivalent of aiming a 16th thinner or thicker. A 1/2 tip of spin could get you an extra 5 to 7 degrees. Of course, different cues and table conditions are determining factors, as shaft deflection, CB squirt, and ball-to-ball friction varies. Maybe your cue gets a 7° angle change by using a quarter tip of spin instead of a half tip. ?? A full tip of left or right spin could alter the shot by as much as 10 to 15 degrees, which equates to a whole 1/4 fractional aim difference. The trick is to know and understand the effects caused by your specific cue when applying varying amounts of side spin. Here's an example: (you can fast-forward to 2:53 to avoid suffering my long-winded english tutorial)
https://youtu.be/iOHgrxLvMP8
Click to expand...

Another great video, Brian. Yeah, I can't be sure exactly how much extra angle I can buy with just the right side spin and softness, but the lower limits are easy enough to find with the draws/stuns at different speeds.
 
C

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
precisepotting said:
Hi Jeff,

Maybe I got the wrong person, but I thought I sent you my Precision Potting Manual earlier. If you have read it and tried it out, then you can't say that you won't be as accurate with soft spin. You can.
Click to expand...

Yes. I had read your book. I liked it. You may be correct, but I have a low deflection shaft, so I couldn't apply your instruction with my particular cue.
 
BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
precisepotting said:
I personally do not subscribe to this line of thought. A throw effect is due to some latent momentum being transfer to OB. It will be minimal unless CB is a lot heavier than OB.

The spin on the cue ball will create a counter spin on the object but again very minimal unless the two balls have rough surfaces.

To get the amount of throw from what you have said is "a little too much" to accept. If that is true, then we will have no confidence in making the OB even though it is struck exactly on the opposie side of the pocket. Maybe I have misunderstood what you have been saying. If so, sorry.
Click to expand...

The throw effect is caused by friction between the balls at the point of contact, so applying the outside english allows the CB to spin off the OB, reducing the friction, and at the same time slightly throwing the OB onto a wider path/angle toward the pocket.

I think you are on to something by using english and only a couple of aim references, provided the player is using a high deflection shaft if applying english with a pivot motion. Low deflection shaft users would have to use the parallel application for english. Deviating from CCB involves an experienced feel in order to really be accurate, especially at different speeds, angles, and distances. But it could still be perfected, as with any other method. It's good to have a few spin shots in your skill bag...they come in handy.:D
 
P

precisepotting

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BC21 said:
The throw effect is caused by friction between the balls at the point of contact, so applying the outside english allows the CB to spin off the OB, reducing the friction, and at the same time slightly throwing the OB onto a wider path/angle toward the pocket.

I think you are on to something by using english and only a couple of aim references, provided the player is using a high deflection shaft if applying english with a pivot motion. Low deflection shaft users would have to use the parallel application for english. Deviating from CCB involves an experienced feel in order to really be accurate, especially at different speeds, angles, and distances. But it could still be perfected, as with any other method. It's good to have a few spin shots in your skill bag...they come in handy.:D
Click to expand...

Yes, you are right. I have also read about the throw is due to friction between the two balls. To me, outside English creates a very slight counterspin on the OB (again due to friction) thus negating the throw effect.

You are spot on. The shaft cannot be LD when using my method.
 
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