Draw shot accuracy against OB

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Caveat: Beginner, practicing.

I find I am improving on general accuracy. While I am far from perfect knowing where to aim, my issue has mostly been hitting the OB where I am aiming. That is getting much better and more consistent with practice, and watching lots of videos and reading.

Except on draw shots. Note I am not even worrying where the cue ball ends up at the moment, but am finding that for any longish draw shot, I am way off on where it strikes the object ball.

Yesterday I hit about a dozen shots, perfectly lined up on the diagonal, cue ball about 6' from object ball - missed every one. I shifted up to the center and made 2 of 3. About the same with a follow shot.

The misses were variously soft and hard hits, with little difference. It seems whenever I shift my front hand down to get back spin, something goes wrong.

My question is: do you have suggestions for self-diagnosis?

I am trying to keep the cue as parallel to the table as practical, am trying not to change the stroke much from what I would hit at the center (which seems to work). I am getting a fair amount of backspin on the ball, and I do not feel I am mis-cueing at all (and am trying for a nice even layer of chalk). I do not think my bridge hand is moving, I think whatever is happening is either that I am not "seeing" the center (low) of the cue ball and actually setting up a bit off center, or more likely my back hand is doing something bad.

I've tried working my way down the cue ball, and indeed it just gets worse the further down I go.

Does a draw shot's lower hit actually require a lot more accuracy, due to rolling resistance (or other reason), and this is normal? Again, seeing no degradation in a follow shot accuracy, just bottom.

Or am I likely doing something different, and just not sensing it?

So back to the point: Suggestions for self-diagnosis?

PS. I have inquiries out to two instructors locally, but no response.

PPS. If it matters, 9' table, simonis 860 cloth.
 

SFC9ball

JimBaker PBIA Instructor
Silver Member
A lot of players cant hit the spot on the cue ball they are aiming at due to a poor stroke, my advice to you is to find a certified instructor and have them work with you, a video analysis will show what you may or may not be doing correct in your stroke. Scott Lee who lives in Largo Florida would be my go to guy, he can cut years off of the learning curve. If you are a beginner it will be better to take a lesson now because you don't have any ingrained bad habits to break.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks, @SFC9ball, he's one I have an inquiry out to already. I tried a local one but no reply in the last month, and Scott Lee is pretty far north, so not sure about logistics, but I did inquire of him a few days ago. I realize personal instruction is a better path, but we make do with what's available, which right now is me and a table. :embarrassed2:
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
One thing you can do to see if you are hitting the cue ball with unintended side spin is to use a stripe for the cue ball. Place the stripe so that it is vertical and in the line of travel. The stripe should remain vertical during the shot if you hit the "cue" ball in the vertical center. Start with very short shots (cue ball to object ball distance) and increase the length only as you can control the stripe.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One thing you can do to see if you are hitting the cue ball with unintended side spin is to use a stripe for the cue ball. Place the stripe so that it is vertical and in the line of travel. The stripe should remain vertical during the shot if you hit the "cue" ball in the vertical center. Start with very short shots (cue ball to object ball distance) and increase the length only as you can control the stripe.

Thanks. I have tried that, though not recently; I have trouble seeing the effect enroute to the cue ball (I can see it spinning wildly afterwards, but not sure how much of that comes from the off-center strike on the OB).

I've been seeing lots of examples of people using video here, so I think I'll try to set up a video of it so I can watch in slow motion and see more what is happening. I'm not sure I'm going to see where the tip touches, but at least I should see if I'm sending it spinning.

I'm not much of a videographer, though, so that may be harder than hitting it straight.
 

SFC9ball

JimBaker PBIA Instructor
Silver Member
Thanks, @SFC9ball, he's one I have an inquiry out to already. I tried a local one but no reply in the last month, and Scott Lee is pretty far north, so not sure about logistics, but I did inquire of him a few days ago. I realize personal instruction is a better path, but we make do with what's available, which right now is me and a table. :embarrassed2:

Scott is out in Las Vegas right now, if he hasn't already contacted you I am sure he will very soon.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Scott is out in Las Vegas right now, if he hasn't already contacted you I am sure he will very soon.

Yes, for clarity, I did not consider him slow in responding, as it has only been a few days; I just worry with his reputation and distance from me if that will work out.

Another gentleman, however, is about a month with no answer. Maybe a snowbird, and doesn't work down in Florida in the summer.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So at the risk of general ridicule... remember I'm a beginner...

I tried making a video so I could see what is happening. The first issue is not really sure if this what what one needs to see, but I did it from two angles for what I think I wanted to see and combined.

Not sure I'll leave this up permanently but here's my first attempt: https://youtu.be/xvoM9P28vc0

I found this both depressing and illuminating; depressing as I can't see anything much I did right. :frown:

I am lifting the cue tip as I follow through, obviously lowering my arm to do so.

I also seem to have hit the bottom left side of the cue ball the first time (and not very low, pretty high), and bottom right side the second time. So I am just plain missing, and not consistently.

But the surprise to me is that my bridge hand is moving, through I would have sworn it was solid. As the cue comes up on the stroke, especially in the first one, my hand moves up off the table. Whether cause or effect (from the back going down), it's certainly not keeping a stationary bridge.

Still not sure why I am so much worse with the draw; maybe that I don't have that back-down-front-up motion then.

But... doing a video is really interesting, I can see a lot that is wrong. Whether I know what's right or not is different question, so welcome comments.

Comments, on the way I did the video (and if something could be done better, different angles, etc) or on the stroke welcome.

Beginner, remember.

PS. Next time I'll use a real microphone, the audio is awful, but is not really relevant; I was just babbling.
 

SFC9ball

JimBaker PBIA Instructor
Silver Member
Video

I watched the video and I will give you just a couple of pointers to work on until you work with and instructor.

Put you cue ball 1 diamond away from your object ball, start close and work your way back 1 diamond at a time.

The first thing that I noticed right a way is your front had is loose and not firmly planted on the table. This will cause the cue tip not hit where you are intending.

Plant your hand firmly on the table, not so that it is uncomfortable but so that it is stable, form a loop bridge tight enough that you can slide the cue through. When striking the cue ball you do not have to hit hard to get the ball to draw back, use a Level cue, Loose grip (back hand) and aim below horizontal center and about 1/2 speed.

This will get you going in the right direction.

Do you have Mark Wilsons book "Play Great pool"?

Good luck and stay positive.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks, Matt, I will work as suggested.

Do you have Mark Wilsons book "Play Great pool"?

No. Honestly since getting a pool table and asking advice I have had about 20 books recommended as "you must read this", with so little consensus that I just have not bother buying any, and instead have read a lot at Billiard University and associated Colorado State site, and watched a ton of You Tube videos (many proving that the bar to publishing on You Tube is awfully low :( ).

And mostly just been knocking balls around trying to teach myself and having fun with a new table.
 

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You said the cue goes off to the left but its hard to tell by the video, and since your alignment, (being visual or body or probably a little of both), what you say is off to the left, may in fact, not be true.

I knew one guy who swore he was stroking straight on his warm ups and the cue was curving severely.

A video of you shooting from a dead on straight front view would be much better.

It's just a suggestion, I'm not a instructor. Personally, i am curious though. Do another video as suggested if you can or like.

Thanks.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks, @paultex, I will do more video, a few for me first. The idea of straight on is useful as well, I set the second camera up from the back to see where the cue actually hit. I've got a third camera I can try as well. What I don't think I can do is shoot at a high frame rate, I think I'm stuck at 30fps, though one might do 60 if I lower the resolution, need to check; this video stuff is not what I use them for normally.

To your point, to me it looked like one went one side, one the other; basic lack of consistency. But I'll do some more, this was a trial run to see if it even helped.
 

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks, @paultex, I will do more video, a few for me first. The idea of straight on is useful as well, I set the second camera up from the back to see where the cue actually hit. I've got a third camera I can try as well. What I don't think I can do is shoot at a high frame rate, I think I'm stuck at 30fps, though one might do 60 if I lower the resolution, need to check; this video stuff is not what I use them for normally.

To your point, to me it looked like one went one side, one the other; basic lack of consistency. But I'll do some more, this was a trial run to see if it even helped.

Yes thanks. You would be surprised how often your eyes lie to you vs reality. Obviously the shot relationship looks straight to you, but the reality is a missed shot and I have the feeling the average miss is to the right of the pocket?...and cue ball goes left after contact?

Try to get the camera angle dead straight and use a string line or whatever you think it takes to get the camera and cueball/object ball as straight as possible to the camera angle. Do not worry about if you yourself are not straight with the shot, I'm sure you know that, but just making sure.

When you do all that, the shot line itself will continue toward you, make note and state where your right foot stands, if on the shot line, fine, if left or right of it, then state how much in approximate inches.

One last thing, also state what that shot relationship looks like to your eyes.I'm sure it appears "straight", but really make a conscience effort to really squeeze out that perception from your eyes to your mind. Is it straight in your eye/brain reality? Don't second guess yourself, if it looks straight, ok then cool. Use a comfortable vision like i assume you usually do.

Thanks.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I see this a lot with people who are new to the game.

To the OP: You don't have a sense of the level of difficulty that you are attempting. Drawing a long shot like that is extremely difficult, even for a pro player. You aren't experienced enough to attempt a shot like that.

Set smaller and more realistic goals for yourself. The first thing you should do is to secure that bridge hand. Don't even attempt to do anything else until you can shoot any shot with a secure bridge hand that doesn't move.

Your fundamentals need work, starting with your stance. Your stance is your first step into proper alignment. Pool isn't just played from the waist-up.

Get some outside help, whether it's from an instructor or videos or books.
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Get some outside help, whether it's from an instructor or videos or books.

Last first, thanks; I have one of the best (from what I read) lined up though it will be September - Scott Lee.

Your fundamentals need work, starting with your stance. Your stance is your first step into proper alignment. Pool isn't just played from the waist-up.
I like that last quote. I started out trying the squared off snooker type stance a lot of videos recommend (and there's a discussion around here also). My body just doesn't do that; the left-foot (I shoot right handed) aligned and shoulder width is possible but awkward, but I just can't bend smoothly at the waist as they do to put my chin near the cue. Maybe 40 years ago. We work with what we have.

That's not to say I have given up on standing properly, just that I think I need someone to work with me to find something I can manage that works.

To the OP: You don't have a sense of the level of difficulty that you are attempting. Drawing a long shot like that is extremely difficult, even for a pro player. You aren't experienced enough to attempt a shot like that.

Well, nothing attempted, nothing gained, but your comment does make me feel a lot better.

One thing I have learned is that as I increase power, my right (back) hand is moving all over the place, left, right, etc. If I shoot soft, I am a lot more consistent. I think I was wrong about it being about a draw shot, it's more about power and maintaining consistency.

I have found that if I stop and ensure my back forearm is vertical I do better. I found I was varying that a lot by how far in I needed to reach. But the core movement problem (there are others, and sure a stance might help) is that I can't move fast and also keep the hand going straight down the cue line.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not much of a videographer, though, so that may be harder than hitting it straight.


I think you are being modest. I like the split screen. How do you sync the cameras, if I may ask, and are they just smart phones or real video cameras?
 

Linwood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think you are being modest. I like the split screen. How do you sync the cameras, if I may ask, and are they just smart phones or real video cameras?

Oh, not at all. I do a lot of sports photography and am quite good at it, but I know people who do video well, and there's a HUGE difference. I don't even try shooting sports video, just stills.

And no, they are DSLR's, a D5 and D800 in this case. Which are probably better than cell phones but hardly real video cameras.

Fortunately me shooting pool is not a hard to track subject. :rolleyes:

I didn't sync the cameras, I loaded the video from them into a video editor and found the spot where the ball was hit, then slide the second video left and right until they lined up. That's the easy part.

But thank you. I was thinking of trying again after some practice, and trying as suggested above and shooting from the far side instead of behind me for the second shot. Any other suggestions welcomed.
 
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