All Finishes Pros and Cons

cueman · Apr 25, 2017

Since we side tracked the Ivory Slabbing thread with finish discussion I thought we would visit this subject again. But lets do it differently from past threads.
Lets list the negatives and positive you see in each type.

Here is one:

Cue Cote Epoxy finish.

Positives:
1. I like the hardness it reaches as it dent resistant, but can dent without lifting.
2. It will shine up nice with some effort.
3. Only requires a slow speed lathe to put on with brush.
4. Bubbles are easily removed with a torch.
5. Fumes are not as bad or toxic as many other finishes.

Negatives:
1: It is a little harder to master than many other finishes
2. It is slow drying.
3. It ties your lathe up for at least 12 hours as it has to slow rotate for several hours to cure and lever out.
4. It is harder to buff back to a shine than many finishes.
5. Not suggested as a finish without carbide sanding mandrels s thickness is hard to control.

whammo57 · Apr 25, 2017

I have tried many finishes.................

Water based takes a week to cure and all of them turn yellow after a year or 2 especially if you cook it in you car over the summer (tried 4 different ones)

Urethane..... yellow tint...........

Lacquer never seems to harden all the way

Epoxy............ West, Max 1618.......... work nice but hard to control build and hard to buff..... like Chris said.............. not really that shinny

Solarez UV............ fantastic ....... but it requires a learning curve.... sands and buffs to a wet shine easily.................. this all I use now............

I always use an epoxy sealer/base coat............. (max 1618)

Solarez and Max 1618 do not yellow even in direct sunlight

Kim

JoeyInCali · Apr 25, 2017

I put on epoxy base coat or finish with playing card and blue glove.

whammo57 · Apr 25, 2017

JoeyInCali said:
I put on epoxy base coat or finish with playing card and blue glove.

I do all epoxy and finish with the blue glove................. thin coats......... just seems to work the best........................

Kim

qbilder · Apr 25, 2017

Each one of these cues represent a different finish that my cues have had through the years. Can anybody tell which is epoxy, auto clear, CA, and UV? I sprayed my first cue in 2000 with DuPont Chroma. Since then I progressed through many different types & brands of finishes. Some were easier than others, some required more equipment, but pretty much all made a fine finish once I figured out how to use them. I guess folks can put me in the anything goes camp. If it shines, looks nice, holds up well over time, takes abuse, then it's a good finish, IMO.

captainjko · Apr 25, 2017

whammo57 said:
I do all epoxy and finish with the blue glove................. thin coats......... just seems to work the best........................

Kim

What is "the blue glove" ? Where do you buy them?

JoeyInCali · Apr 25, 2017

captainjko said:
What is "the blue glove" ? Where do you buy them?

Blue latex glove. You can find them at Home Depot.
Best deal I've seen is at Sam's Club. Two big boxes with a lot of them in there.
I go through them like toilet paper.
But, the best latex glove I've used is the black ones you see at Home Depot.

I still use the glove AND a card when applying epoxy. Works better for me.

Sanding the epoxy for a second or third coat caused me a lot of tears.
I want the rest to enjoy the tears as well so I'll let them learn it on their own.
And just because you use epoxy, it doesn't mean you can't use thin CA for for a little help in the process. Even if you eventually sand almost all of the CA.

pescadoman · Apr 25, 2017

JoeyInCali said:
Blue latex glove. You can find them at Home Depot.
Best deal I've seen is at Sam's Club. Two big boxes with a lot of them in there.
I go through them like toilet paper.
But, the best latex glove I've used is the black ones you see at Home Depot.

I still use the glove AND a card when applying epoxy. Works better for me.

Sanding the epoxy for a second or third coat caused me a lot of tears.
I want the rest to enjoy the tears as well so I'll let them learn it on their own.
And just because you use epoxy, it doesn't mean you can't use thin CA for for a little help in the process. Even if you eventually sand almost all of the CA.

If you aren't alergic to latex then try that.......

qbilder · Apr 25, 2017

Blue nitrile rubber gloves at Harbor Freight. They sell them in boxes of 100 for like $7. My hands are too big for the "one size fits all" hardware store gloves.

louieatienza · Apr 25, 2017

I finished a cue once with tung oil. Took a long time to build a finish that I could rub out, but it did look really nice, and I like the amber glow it has. I don't even remember what I did with that one...

I've used a lot of finishes. I never used epoxy for a finish; rather I use it as a pore-filler because it has a different look than a solid-color filler. I feel the chatoyance of the wood is retained with epoxy filler. I never used it as a finish because I was under the impression that there was no UV protection, though maybe some of the newer formulations do have UV protection?

My favorite finish now is ACME Finish1 sold by Sherwin-Williams automotive. Dust-free after 15 minutes, dries in a few hours, buff the next day. Super clarity. After a few days sandpaper slides over it for the first few strokes, then it sands nice and powdery instead of scratching.

I grew up spraying lacquer. I don't spray it much anymore because I'm addicted to the small, reminds me of banana daiquiri. It's also another finish where patience is a virtue; my schedule for a guitar would involve pore fill and sealer (or sealer then filler, then sealer again), then 3-4 coats. Next day, do 3-4 coats. Last day, cut down with 600-1000 grit and do 3-4 coats. Then let it sit a month. For furniture it's wham, bam, thank-you ma'am... spray and ship.

If it was more water-resistant, I think French-polished shellac would be a great finish. Thin, and clear. Not the store bought crap. Cutting down shellac flakes with pure alcohol (Everclear.) Never tried it before, but a lathe would be an ideal way to apply a French polish since it's always moving. Again, it would take a few sessions, over the span of a month, to do it right.

Waterborne finishes? I don't like them. Hate the way they lay down. Not a fan of full-HVLP systems (though I do have some decent "conversion" guns...)

Super-glue. I remember in 1989, a year before Stevie Ray Vaughn died, the then relatively new Fender custom shop made a SRV model. Since SRV didn't like the feel of finish on the necks, but they wanted to protect it, they used super glue so that the wood still felt "bare." That was the first time I heard of its use as a finish. Being an SRV fan I attempted to duplicate this, and these were some of the worst fumes I've ever smelled...

I've also had success with rattle-can lacquers, polyurethanes, acrylics, etc. They just take longer and require longer curing time.

cueman · Apr 25, 2017

My thoughts on Super Glue Finish:

Positives:
1. It only takes a lathe and a little ventilation to apply
2. You can literally finish a cue in 30 minutes with it when using accelerator.
3. It dries really clear when done well.
4. It shines almost as much as auto clear coats.
5. Makes a fast easy way to finish the end of the shaft for repair work or building.

Negatives
1. The fumes from the glue will burn your eyes.
2. The fumes from the accelerator make me sick. The accelerator fumes have even penetrated the latex gloves and once on my skin I feel nauseous.
3. Most brands turn yellow fairly soon. Not all super glues are created equal.
4. It tends to be brittle and cracks around rings.
5. It lifts easier around the end of the joint than some finishes, especially when done thick.

cueman · Apr 25, 2017

FRENCH POLISH FINISHING

French Polish refers both to a method and to a type of finish and not all are created equal. The sealer I use for shafts is in the French Polish category. The method French Polish refers to taking a ball of cheese cloth and wetting it with a lacquer based finish and stroking down across and up like a pendulum just striking the table top or flat surface on the bottom of the pendulum stroke. You can finish table tops and it look nice. This is old world type of craftsmanship made to give a nice finish without the cross-linkers found in modern finishes.

Back in the 80's Leonard Bludworth was using his secret formula for a sealer on shafts and at the time I was doing touch up work on Console Television Cabinets part time for a living. One of the French Polishes I used on Television Cabinets smelled kind of like what he was using so I tried it on a lathe on a shaft and discovered it worked great shaft. The lathe spinning so fast made the super fast drying type of French Polish put on a perfect ultra thin finish without swirl marks. To this day I have not found anything I like better for shaft sealing and some of the top cuemakers use it. Many also apply it to linen wraps for a slight seal.

This thread is about finishes and not sealing shafts. So I will get to the finish point. I use my French Polish Shaft sealer for a finish on antique cues. I noticed most of the early 70's cues and older did not have a thick finish on them and I found a couple dozen coats of shaft sealer put on 5 to 10 minutes apart made a nice thin finish for those older cues and gave the slight amber tint they had.

Positives
1. Easy to apply, sand and buff.
2. Gives a result that is hard to get with modern finishes.
3. Looks much like the old ultra thin Lacquer finishes.

Negatives
1. Being thin gives less protection
2. Does not last as long as thicker finishes.

Bumlak · Apr 26, 2017

My thoughts on Super Glue Finish:

Positives:
1. It only takes a lathe and a little ventilation to apply
2. You can literally finish a cue in 30 minutes with it when using accelerator.
3. It dries really clear when done well.
4. It shines almost as much as auto clear coats.
5. Makes a fast easy way to finish the end of the shaft for repair work or building.

Negatives
1. The fumes from the glue will burn your eyes.
2. The fumes from the accelerator make me sick. The accelerator fumes have even penetrated the latex gloves and once on my skin I feel nauseous.
3. Most brands turn yellow fairly soon. Not all super glues are created equal.
4. It tends to be brittle and cracks around rings.
5. It lifts easier around the end of the joint than some finishes, especially when done thick.

I'm using the CA finishes and Chris, you are 100% correct as usual. Not all CA's are created equal. I am using the Bob Smith Medium Gap Filling and Bob Smith accelerator (I'm fortunate enough to have a Hobby Lobby locally.) Applying with a playing card and using nitrile gloves. I've actually found the finish to be really hard so far, but around the rings...only time will tell. With the correct initial base coat, it's very easy to work with for doing fast re-finishes for repair. I did have to build a small ventilation unit for dust / fumes. I haven't found the Bob Smith CA to yellow as of yet. Once I was shown how to do it correctly, it was a very fast learning curve. Took me maybe 3 finishes to get fantastic results after years of being frustrated with finishing.

Erich

pdcue · Apr 26, 2017

Since you asked - a while back there was lots of talk about West 207/105. Anyone
have experience with that combo. PMs are fine if you prefer to limit things.

TIA
Dale

BHQ · Apr 26, 2017

auto clearcoat
cue base-coated with clear epoxy MAX1618

Pro's
1) easy to spray ***
2) easy to sand & buff
3) not brittle like ca, will dent rather than chip or crack
4) high gloss with quality clear & good procedures

Con's
1) toxic of course
2) takes longer than an hour to do ( if that's what matters to you )
3) costs more than a couple bucks worth of CA ( if that's what matters to you )

***sometimes if i've only got a couple shafts or joint protectors to finish, it's pain in the butt for that small amount, cleaning gun , etc. i'll apply clearcoat with a card just as applying epoxy with a card.
never tried it but have thought a complete butt could also be done that way.

KJ Cues · Apr 26, 2017

Finishes - Good Topic

Today I shoot auto-clear and have been for 10-15 yrs.
I didn't start with A/C but rather, went through a progression to get here.
Krylon rattle-can was played with but just didn't have the millage.
Pretty decent finish though if you had the patience for 10-20 sessions; good gloss.
Next up IIRC was poly-urethane. Laid-out well but yellowed from the start and never really got hard.
After that was a DEFT product. I really started to like that but my source dried up. This was before internet.
My brother who is a professional commercial painter suggested Sherwin Williams conversion varnish which is
actually a very good lacquer. But like all lacquers I've experienced, it would eventually yellow; good hardness.
About that time is when I started with Seyberts and had to find a finish that was similar to what Predator
was using. I don't know for sure but Pred may have started with A/C (auto-clear) but soon went to UV for production.

I'm pretty satisfied with A/C, gloss wise it's hard to tell the diff btwn that and Pred's UV. It's a good match.
Cost wise, I don't think anything can compete with A/C given the results; very cost effective. I like it.
Will it kill you? Sure, if you let it. You just have to be smarter than the product you're working with.
CA will kill you also and pretty much in the same way. The fumes are CA in gas form instead of liquid.
Fill your lungs with CA fumes to where it coats them and say good-night Gracie. You won't be able to breathe.
Same with A/C, coat your lungs and you're done. I'm not a chemist but I believe there is a similar molecule in both.
The other major concern with A/C is ISO-CYANATE gas. Notice the similarity to CYANO-ACRYLATE.
Also, ISO-CYANATE gas messes with your nervous system. The trick is, don't expose yourself to it.
I've stated this before and since we're here, I think it's worth repeating.
ISO-CYANATE gas doesn't exist until you mix the two components; it's a by-product of the reaction.
If you can smell the mixed finish, you're exposing yourself to ISO. No smell - No ISO.
IMO, A/C has received a bad rap and that rap has been passed around by a lack of knowledge. Educate yourself.

I had a thought recently for a clever spray-booth design. Think sand-blast cabinet.
The work, the gun and fumes stay in the cabinet. The fumes are vented out the back; no exposure.
I think the idea is so trick that you could shoot butt-ass naked if you were so inclined and no, I'm not.
Sorry Joey, I know you would have jumped all over that without my disclaimer. Lol.

scdiveteam · Apr 26, 2017

KJ Cues said:
Today I shoot auto-clear and have been for 10-15 yrs.
I didn't start with A/C but rather, went through a progression to get here.
Krylon rattle-can was played with but just didn't have the millage.
Pretty decent finish though if you had the patience for 10-20 sessions; good gloss.
Next up IIRC was poly-urethane. Laid-out well but yellowed from the start and never really got hard.
After that was a DEFT product. I really started to like that but my source dried up. This was before internet.
My brother who is a professional commercial painter suggested Sherwin Williams conversion varnish which is
actually a very good lacquer. But like all lacquers I've experienced, it would eventually yellow; good hardness.
About that time is when I started with Seyberts and had to find a finish that was similar to what Predator
was using. I don't know for sure but Pred may have started with A/C (auto-clear) but soon went to UV for production.

I'm pretty satisfied with A/C, gloss wise it's hard to tell the diff btwn that and Pred's UV. It's a good match.
Cost wise, I don't think anything can compete with A/C given the results; very cost effective. I like it.
Will it kill you? Sure, if you let it. You just have to be smarter than the product you're working with.
CA will kill you also and pretty much in the same way. The fumes are CA in gas form instead of liquid.
Fill your lungs with CA fumes to where it coats them and say good-night Gracie. You won't be able to breathe.
Same with A/C, coat your lungs and you're done. I'm not a chemist but I believe there is a similar molecule in both.
The other major concern with A/C is ISO-CYANATE gas. Notice the similarity to CYANO-ACRYLATE.
Also, ISO-CYANATE gas messes with your nervous system. The trick is, don't expose yourself to it.
I've stated this before and since we're here, I think it's worth repeating.
ISO-CYANATE gas doesn't exist until you mix the two components; it's a by-product of the reaction.
If you can smell the mixed finish, you're exposing yourself to ISO. No smell - No ISO.
IMO, A/C has received a bad rap and that rap has been passed around by a lack of knowledge. Educate yourself.

I had a thought recently for a clever spray-booth design. Think sand-blast cabinet.
The work, the gun and fumes stay in the cabinet. The fumes are vented out the back; no exposure.
I think the idea is so trick that you could shoot butt-ass naked if you were so inclined and no, I'm not.
Sorry Joey, I know you would have jumped all over that without my disclaimer. Lol.

scdiveteam said:
Hi,

I like automotive clear like KJ and his post is spot on.

Number 1: The trick is to make sure the woods in your cue are stable and that requires a storage environment that is controlled. After the cue is turned to final size you must seal it with a deep penetrating sealer. I apply my adhesion coat after one additional week and I spray the clear to a mill thickness of 2 mills.

Before wet sanding and buffing it is wise to let the cue cure out for weeks. Buffing creates some heat and you need the clear and substrates to be cured and non reactive regarding the chemistry.

The devil after a finish is shrinkage. People get in a hurry and wish to get the cue shipped. If you look at cues that have been in the field for a long time and they don't have shrinkage, the CM was not in a hurry IMO. There are no short cuts. Unless you use UV and it has it's own issues.

I have a high CFM mine safety approved 12" explosion proof blower with a 12" discharge ducting connected to my booth in a spray room. I don't need to wear a mask as i don't smell any fumes as they can not come into the room as the exiting air flow will not allow it. I also mix my clear directly upstream of the booth and i don't smell anything either as replacement air coming into the spray room creates a laminar flow from my mix area 6 " upstream of the booth.

With my old booth i needed to wear a mask for both duties. It is all about cfm.

Remember if you are smelling it, it is killing you. This stuff is cumulative. Over time even small exposures can get you.

Also i installed a smaller bathroom type vent fan in that spray room that I leave on for days so off gases from cues curing can not invade my shop. After having a long conversation with Dennis Searing, i installed the smaller vent fan because the secondary medical problems he encountered was from the off gassing of cues he hung in the shop to cure. Scary stuff, It is very important CMs share safety info.

Rick

scdiveteam · Apr 26, 2017

duplicate post deleted

whammo57 · Apr 26, 2017

JoeyInCali said:
Blue latex glove. You can find them at Home Depot.
Best deal I've seen is at Sam's Club. Two big boxes with a lot of them in there.
I go through them like toilet paper.
But, the best latex glove I've used is the black ones you see at Home Depot.

I still use the glove AND a card when applying epoxy. Works better for me.

Sanding the epoxy for a second or third coat caused me a lot of tears.
I want the rest to enjoy the tears as well so I'll let them learn it on their own.
And just because you use epoxy, it doesn't mean you can't use thin CA for for a little help in the process. Even if you eventually sand almost all of the CA.

I never sand between coats of epoxy or solarez................ never had an adhesion problem..............

from my experience.............. solarez will lift at the joint and at the wrap groove even if you use their vinyl sealer............ it never happens if you use an epoxy base coat..............

Kim

CuesDirectly · Apr 26, 2017

My favorite is not the most popular, it's rarely ordered and it does not look the greatest compared to the Automotive Gloss that I use.

My fave is my fave because of how it feels in the hand.

Boiled Linseed Oil or Danish Oil can be done in different ways but I like it this way.

After the cutting lathe, it goes on my sanding lathe, I wet and soak it with the oil for five minutes and then I put the oil on 320 grit sandpaper and start sanding, don't allow the oil to dry at this stage.

Then a little oil on 400 grit and keep sanding. No more oil needed at 600 grit, the oil begins to appear to dry when you get to 800. Then 1000, 1200, 1500 then 2000.

Set it aside for 3-5 days, lightly rub the oil on and go back with 1500 then 2000, let it sit again.

Rub on more oil and then go back with 1500 then 2000.

Wait 3 more days and polish with Maguires.

Try it on a piece of Wenge, the huge pours will fill in and feel fantastic on the hands. Wenge polishes very well this way.

Many people here on AZBilliards should give a big shout out to Chris for this thread, it turned a few negative threads to a positive direction. Thanks Chris.

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