Slight right to left stroke

skipbales · Nov 26, 2015

I set up a straight in shot on a diagonal line to the right corner pocket. It is laser straight (thanks to Scott Lee and double checked since). Object ball is 3 diamonds out and cue ball is 3 diamonds back from that. I have hit this shot 2,950 times (50 a day).

Even on a very good shot my cue tends to finish 1/4 to 1/2 inch left of center. I have changed everything I can think of from feet position, stance, head angle, stroke and aiming.
I seem to be having some success by approaching the ball slightly from the right, kind of like a TOI but with no angle created, or at least such a small angle it does not cause a miss. I am able to pocket the ball and stay directly online with SOME consistency but I think I am actually hitting the ball slightly right of center. I know this because the cue ball is still spinning after coming to rest. So the cue is online, finishes online, the ball goes in the center of the pocket, it "looks" to me like I am slightly right of center and the spinning cue ball seems to confirm all this.

I suspected what I see is not actually the center of the cue ball, possibly an eye dominance thing or something, and the tiny right shift was putting me on true center, but why would the cue ball be spinning horizontally after stopping if I am not putting side spin on the ball.

I don't know if I like the stroke that appears slight right of center and ends up right online with the cue ball spinning or the one that looks correct to my eye but ends up slightly left of the center line. I am concerned that the right of center shot will affect cut shots that hit the rail, so am leaning towards living with the left of center finish.

Neil · Nov 26, 2015

skipbales said:
I set up a straight in shot on a diagonal line to the right corner pocket. It is laser straight (thanks to Scott Lee and double checked since). Object ball is 3 diamonds out and cue ball is 3 diamonds back from that. I have hit this shot 2,950 times (50 a day).

Even on a very good shot my cue tends to finish 1/4 to 1/2 inch left of center. I have changed everything I can think of from feet position, stance, head angle, stroke and aiming.
I seem to be having some success by approaching the ball slightly from the right, kind of like a TOI but with no angle created, or at least such a small angle it does not cause a miss. I am able to pocket the ball and stay directly online with SOME consistency but I think I am actually hitting the ball slightly right of center. I know this because the cue ball is still spinning after coming to rest. So the cue is online, finishes online, the ball goes in the center of the pocket, it "looks" to me like I am slightly right of center and the spinning cue ball seems to confirm all this.

I suspected what I see is not actually the center of the cue ball, possibly an eye dominance thing or something, and the tiny right shift was putting me on true center, but why would the cue ball be spinning horizontally after stopping if I am not putting side spin on the ball.

I don't know if I like the stroke that appears slight right of center and ends up right online with the cue ball spinning or the one that looks correct to my eye but ends up slightly left of the center line. I am concerned that the right of center shot will affect cut shots that hit the rail, so am leaning towards living with the left of center finish.

It's best to be able to see correctly what you want to hit, and then have a straight stroke to hit where you wanted to.

That said, we then need to know if finishing off line a little bit is a problem or not. You have shot a lot of shots which means whatever you are doing is ingrained pretty well into your subconscious. And, will take some effort on your part to change it. So, before you go changing anything, first we have to know if something actually needs changing or not.

When shooting that straight in shot, what do you do with the cb? Do you follow the ob, draw, or practice stop shots? If practicing stop shots, does the cb stop dead with no spin when you think you are hitting center cb? You stated that it has spin when applying spin, as it should have.

Having the cue go dead straight for the entire stroke is the optimal goal. Few will ever attain that for every shot. The straighter, the better. That said, there is a point where it also is straight enough to accomplish the real goal. Which is to hit the cb where you want to, and then hit the ob where you want to. If you can repeatedly stop the cb dead on a straight in shot, you are accomplishing what really needs to be accomplished.

Without video or someone watching you shoot, it is near impossible to see just exactly why you tend to go off line a little bit. And, you can be chasing that solution for a long time and never find it by yourself.

Scott Lee · Nov 26, 2015

What he said...:thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Neil said:
Having the cue go dead straight for the entire stroke is the optimal goal. Few will ever attain that for every shot. The straighter, the better. That said, there is a point where it also is straight enough to accomplish the real goal. Which is to hit the cb where you want to, and then hit the ob where you want to. If you can repeatedly stop the cb dead on a straight in shot, you are accomplishing what really needs to be accomplished.

.

rrick33 · Nov 26, 2015

If you are finishing 1/4 - 1/2 inch off the center line then I'm surprised you're not throwing the OB off track. Unless you're hitting the shot with a fair amount of speed to kill the throw effect.

You never mentioned what your potting percentage was.

If you're using too much speed, you may be pushing the stroke and this can cause you to connect poorly on the cue ball.

Have you tried this shot using a variety of different speeds to determine if it's a factor?

skipbales · Nov 26, 2015

1. I draw 2-3 diamonds back.
2. I draw almost perfectly straight back online
3. I miss one in 10 as an average but can miss the same ball three times in a row on occasion.
4 I miscue 1 in 20
5. I routinely miss my first shot of the morning and do better shortly, no matter how much I try to focus on that first shot.
6. I only noticed this offline finish as I moved back in distance with speed. I shot the first couple of thousand hits from one diamond back then two and from stop shot to 5 diamonds draw from those closer positions. I gradually moved back and drew farther. The offline finish was not very noticeable until I reached this level.

Here are my two options at this point:
1. Straight shot, draw back right online cue stick finishes slightly left of center line cue ball stops with no side spin. Maybe this is OK and I don't need to fix anything. I guess that is my question.
2. Approach cue ball from what my eye tells me is slightly right of center, Straight shot, draw back right online cue stick finishes on center line but the cue ball is spinning horizontally indicating I am actually hitting right of center. This spin doesn't matter if I don't hit a rail but on an angle shot would affect my position after hitting a rail. I am not sure I want to build an inside hit into my stroke and have to learn to compensate for this in all my shots to get position.
3. Yes speed is a factor. With a stop shot or from 2 diamonds out and two back it is not much of an issue.

Using Scot Lee's speed system it is a 5, enough for a 2-3 diamond draw from 3 diamonds away, pretty firm.

My next thought I got from some advice Fran Krimi gave someone else. I am going to set the shot up on the other side of the table to see what I get that way. I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner.

BTW thanks for the input guys. I hope this extra info helps. Maybe it is not really an issue and I am being anal. It just bugs me the stick is offline at finish even if the shot tracks perfectly. If I force the stick to track the exact line I do miss the shot. I don't seem to see a track down the exact line that ends up online, in the pocket and straight back.

skipbales · Nov 26, 2015

Neil said:
That said, there is a point where it also is straight enough to accomplish the real goal. Which is to hit the cb where you want to, and then hit the ob where you want to. If you can repeatedly stop the cb dead on a straight in shot, you are accomplishing what really needs to be accomplished.

With my crazy angled stroke I am now able to put the object ball in the center of the pocket and draw almost perfectly straight back online. I could not do this in the beginning. I began drawing off at a 20 degree angle left or right. This straight back online is great progress for me and I love it. It is just the finish and the fact that I still miss one in 10 that bugs me. My goal is 50 shots with no miss and no miscue. I did 50 with no miscue once but not without a miss.

rrick33 · Nov 26, 2015

skipbales said:
1.
6. I only noticed this offline finish as I moved back in distance with speed. I shot the first couple of thousand hits from one diamond back then two and from stop shot to 5 diamonds draw from those closer positions. I gradually moved back and drew farther. The offline finish was not very noticeable until I reached this level.

I suspect the added force within your stroke delivery is contributing to the problem.
The fact that you say it's "crazy angled" as well is not helping the matter.
There is an art to executing a relaxed, straight stroke with momentum. Once you figure that out, you will likely resolve your off center follow through.

FranCrimi · Nov 26, 2015

Set up the same shot in the left corner pocket. What happens when you shoot it?

Edit --- I just noticed that you wrote that you were going to try the shot in the opposite pocket. Good. Post back what happens.

skipbales · Nov 27, 2015

FranCrimi said:
Set up the same shot in the left corner pocket. What happens when you shoot it?

Edit --- I just noticed that you wrote that you were going to try the shot in the opposite pocket. Good. Post back what happens.

Working on that today. I apologize I spelled your last name with a K instead of a C. I will let you know how it comes out.

skipbales · Nov 27, 2015

Move to the left side of the table

FranCrimi said:
Set up the same shot in the left corner pocket. What happens when you shoot it?

Edit --- I just noticed that you wrote that you were going to try the shot in the opposite pocket. Good. Post back what happens.

OK. Same result on the other side.
Summary:
My cue stick ends up covering most of the white dot the cue ball started from and from 3/4 to none of the follow through dot. There is no correlation between the quality of the result to the distance off the follow through dot. I can hit a perfect shot and be off a full dot on the finish and hit the same quality and be almost straight through. I am NEVER off to the right. The right side of both dots is always visible.

The shot where I move slightly to the right (on this side it is outside English the other side was inside) the cue ends up online, the ball pockets and the cue ball spins back online but has definite counter-clockwise spin (I use a multi red dot cue and the spin is obvious). It may be the only reason I am finishing online is I am starting a little to the right. I suspect I am putting a touch of backhand English on with this stroke.

I am experimenting with my grip hand position. I hang it straight down but there are a lot of variations of that. A little side arm it is a different grip than closer to my body. Grip is not really the right word, I hold the cue very loose, sometimes even letting it slip some on a long shot. I have tried 2, 3 and 4 fingers, trying not to influence the path. Curling my fingers under the cue is different than holding it in the tips of my fingers. None of this is making a difference so far.

skipbales · Nov 27, 2015

Latest update.
If I rest the butt of the cue in my right fingers with them curled under the stick and my thumb not even in contact with the cue I come through straight online. I don't like this grip as it turns my hand slightly under and lets the cue totally slip but it does finish online. This seems to indicate my stroke path is straight.

What seems to be happening is my right hand turns slightly on a long hard stroke but the turn occurs after contact with the cue ball. That is why it does not affect the quality of the shot. It could even be the impact with the cue ball at higher speeds that causes a small twisting in my wrist. My wrist seems to be weaker in one direction then the other so it flexes consistently in one direction. I hold my wrist quite loose so this seems to be a natural response to the impact on the way up to my chest on the pendulum swing. Turning my hand over strengthens that portion of my wrist as does starting slightly to the right. The stronger wrist position does not turn on impact so it finishes down the line.

Since the cures seem worse than the disease my plan is to keep the stroke I have, always working towards the online finish and see if the muscle in my wrist strengthens. If the only penalty is a slight left of center finish but the shot is good I can live with that.

I would appreciate your comments if you think I am going down the wrong path. I shoot this shot 50 times each morning and hope to improve my results at all levels over time. It sure is a slow process.

FranCrimi · Nov 27, 2015

skipbales said:
Latest update.
If I rest the butt of the cue in my right fingers with them curled under the stick and my thumb not even in contact with the cue I come through straight online. I don't like this grip as it turns my hand slightly under and lets the cue totally slip but it does finish online. This seems to indicate my stroke path is straight.

What seems to be happening is my right hand turns slightly on a long hard stroke but the turn occurs after contact with the cue ball. That is why it does not affect the quality of the shot. It could even be the impact with the cue ball at higher speeds that causes a small twisting in my wrist. My wrist seems to be weaker in one direction then the other so it flexes consistently in one direction. I hold my wrist quite loose so this seems to be a natural response to the impact on the way up to my chest on the pendulum swing. Turning my hand over strengthens that portion of my wrist as does starting slightly to the right. The stronger wrist position does not turn on impact so it finishes down the line.

Since the cures seem worse than the disease my plan is to keep the stroke I have, always working towards the online finish and see if the muscle in my wrist strengthens. If the only penalty is a slight left of center finish but the shot is good I can live with that.

I would appreciate your comments if you think I am going down the wrong path. I shoot this shot 50 times each morning and hope to improve my results at all levels over time. It sure is a slow process.

Leave the thumb and index finger on the cue but don't put any pressure on them and don't grab the cue with them. My guess is that you may be twisting with those two fingers. Let the last 3 fingers guide your stroke. That's exactly how I play and I don't twist the cue. Focus on moving your arm in a straight line. Make sure the knuckles of your grip hand are on the side of your cue and that they remain there throughout the stroke. Freeze your position after you've followed through and turn around and look at your grip hand. Make sure your knuckles are in the same place.

It takes some getting used to, but it's better if you fix this. You've created a bad habit that needs to be broken. If the cb is spinning in place afterwards, then you are putting spin on it at impact and while there is a small margin for error that may allow you to get away with shooting like that on some shots, it will come back to bite you on other shots.

skipbales · Nov 27, 2015

I will give that a try.

The cue ball doesn't spin on impact with my normal offline stroke, only with the stroke where I hit what my eye sees as a tiny bit to the right. The shot finishes online and ball draws straight back but then spins counterclockwise in place.

Thank you
Skip

skipbales · Nov 27, 2015

When you say "on the cue" ? There are two options for that. One is to hold the sides of the cue between the index and thumb and the other is to curl the index under and touch the thumb at the bottom. The second makes a kind of O the stick rest in.

Which do you suggest?
As for the last 3 fingers, do they curl under or lightly touch the side?

croscoe · Nov 27, 2015

Open or closed bridge?

skipbales · Nov 27, 2015

Closed bridge

FranCrimi · Nov 27, 2015

skipbales said:
When you say "on the cue" ? There are two options for that. One is to hold the sides of the cue between the index and thumb and the other is to curl the index under and touch the thumb at the bottom. The second makes a kind of O the stick rest in.

Which do you suggest?
As for the last 3 fingers, do they curl under or lightly touch the side?

I use the "O" that you described, but I let the cue rest mainly on the back three fingers.

skipbales · Nov 27, 2015

OK thank you. I know it sounds so basic but I have experimented with variations for a long time and never settled on a grip I liked. The wrist hinges two ways and I have tried holding the butt with just my finger tips and wrapping my hand around the stick but find things I don't care for about them all.

FranCrimi · Nov 27, 2015

skipbales said:
OK thank you. I know it sounds so basic but I have experimented with variations for a long time and never settled on a grip I liked. The wrist hinges two ways and I have tried holding the butt with just my finger tips and wrapping my hand around the stick but find things I don't care for about them all.

I know what you mean. Try not to get too complicated. Just make a fist around the cue and then relax the grip with the pressure off the first two fingers. That's pretty much all you need to do. I don't like resting it in the fingertips at all. It feels too unstable for me.

skipbales · Nov 28, 2015

New grip

FranCrimi said:
I know what you mean. Try not to get too complicated. Just make a fist around the cue and then relax the grip with the pressure off the first two fingers. That's pretty much all you need to do. I don't like resting it in the fingertips at all. It feels too unstable for me.

It is pretty crazy how simple this advice is and how far I have missed the point. I mistook a "light grip" with fingertips. By holding the cue in the tips of my fingers and not tucking my fingers under the cue I have erroneously developed a grip that doesn't really work well and I have never been comfortable with it. I now have a lot more points of contact without squeezing the cue and my wrist hinges completely differently. After 100 more shots it is already feeling more natural and I am finishing more online. I still tend to finish a little left but less and I even finished a little to the right once.

Thank you for the help.

Slight right to left stroke

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