Little Ko wins 8-Ball !!! Big KO ripped off, Pool hangs it's head

HelloBaby-

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wu Yu Lun switched to snooker to play for the Taiwanese team in the Asian Games//World Games. If you win a medal in one of those, the government will pay you on top of your prize money. I am not sure what exactly happened to him, but I don't beleive I've seen his name in the Taiwanese circuit recently.

Lots of top Taiwanese pros disappear or lose interest into their 30s. If those players are still playing strong, Taiwan would easily put together the toughest team. Some have returned but are playing nowhere near their top.

That's the thing I can't understand.
Let's talk about Yang, he was one of the world super star at a very young age for a pool player. And he decided to retired at the age of 30 ???
I mean come on, Yang is not like the others, he knew it, everybody knew it, he's one of the most talented player that the pool world ever had.
How the hell a guy like that, decided to give up at that young of age ???
I can't find a reason honestly, for me there are no reason for him to give up.
 

HelloBaby-

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You're welcome Jay. The only weakness I would say about Ko is his safety and kicking game. He excels during near-perfect equipment and conditions, but when the racks get sloppy, some of the Filipino players have an edge. Too often, like many Taiwanese players, he lives and dies by the jump cue.

So true, kick safety is where Ko still need to improve, Chang Jung Lin for me is a perfect player, his safety game is just as sick as his offensive play, the break, the jump... they are all at world class level.
Maybe all taiwaneses players share the same weaknesses, sometimes they choose to attack some hard shot that can cost them the game instead of playing safe, the Wu's style.
A very interesting thing happened during the stream at Big Tyme: after losing to Efren, Chang asked Orcullo about a shot he faced on that match, it's a very tough shot, Chang took that on and missed which cost him a very crucial rack. Orcullo examined the shot and play a relatively easy but perfect safe lol, and then he played the offensive option and also make it lol :smile:

Orcullo is the best in the world, not by a large margin, but he's the best :smile:
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
That's the thing I can't understand.
Let's talk about Yang, he was one of the world super star at a very young age for a pool player. And he decided to retired at the age of 30 ???
I mean come on, Yang is not like the others, he knew it, everybody knew it, he's one of the most talented player that the pool world ever had.
How the hell a guy like that, decided to give up at that young of age ???
I can't find a reason honestly, for me there are no reason for him to give up.

There is one good reason - to try to make a decent living doing something else! Even when I was young, all the top players aspired to own a poolroom, so they could make a living from the game. I bought my first poolroom at age 27, so I was ahead of the curve, but many of my peers followed suit in the years afterward. Most of us did pretty good too. It was a good time to own a poolroom.
 

lost

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's the thing I can't understand.
Let's talk about Yang, he was one of the world super star at a very young age for a pool player. And he decided to retired at the age of 30 ???
I mean come on, Yang is not like the others, he knew it, everybody knew it, he's one of the most talented player that the pool world ever had.
How the hell a guy like that, decided to give up at that young of age ???
I can't find a reason honestly, for me there are no reason for him to give up.

Almost any educated professional makes more than a "pro" pool player. Why would it be surprising a person wouldn't want to make a better living for their family? You know...get married, buy a house...provide educations for their kids, etc.
 

vincentwu817

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's the thing I can't understand.
Let's talk about Yang, he was one of the world super star at a very young age for a pool player. And he decided to retired at the age of 30 ???
I mean come on, Yang is not like the others, he knew it, everybody knew it, he's one of the most talented player that the pool world ever had.
How the hell a guy like that, decided to give up at that young of age ???
I can't find a reason honestly, for me there are no reason for him to give up.

For me, Yang did not have the mental toughness off the table. While he is a tough player that enjoys making big shots, he was tired of pool and lost interest in it. Of course, the money isn't that good either. I wouldn't call him antisocial, but he is also a very reserved individual which may contribute to this - I think he spends most of his time fishing now.

On top of that, his mentor Chao Fong Pang may have an effect on him as well, who is now a successful businessman and was for a short time a politician. The thing is, Yang never even graduated middle school.
 

vincentwu817

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Almost any educated professional makes more than a "pro" pool player. Why would it be surprising a person wouldn't want to make a better living for their family? You know...get married, buy a house...provide educations for their kids, etc.

Hsia Hui Kai comes to mind. At his peak he was easily a top 15, if not top 10 player in the world. He retired out of nowhere and took an actual office job. He had a family to take care of and pool isn't secure enough.
 

vincentwu817

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So true, kick safety is where Ko still need to improve, Chang Jung Lin for me is a perfect player, his safety game is just as sick as his offensive play, the break, the jump... they are all at world class level.
Maybe all taiwaneses players share the same weaknesses, sometimes they choose to attack some hard shot that can cost them the game instead of playing safe, the Wu's style.
A very interesting thing happened during the stream at Big Tyme: after losing to Efren, Chang asked Orcullo about a shot he faced on that match, it's a very tough shot, Chang took that on and missed which cost him a very crucial rack. Orcullo examined the shot and play a relatively easy but perfect safe lol, and then he played the offensive option and also make it lol :smile:

Orcullo is the best in the world, not by a large margin, but he's the best :smile:

I agree. Orcullo has has a complete game in terms of both skills and mental toughness. He has the patience to grind it out.

Chang Jung Lin's safety and kicking game is definitely superior to Ko's. He is much more risk averse and plays the percentages well. However, I would take Ko's offensive game any day. He never seems to get out of line. I talked to Chang after his match against Efren in Hard Times, which involved a lot of safety game as the table broke like @$$. As a top 5 player in a world, he admits that he has little chance against Efren in safeties and even made a facebook post about how Efren "taught him a lesson."
 

richiebalto

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just spoke to Mark and he asked that I post his comment from another thread into other relevant threads. So here it is.

My suggestion is that all take into consideration that CSI has several huge events still going. Mark does want to provide an explanation and will do so as soon as the dust settles.

Lou Figueroa

+

What really doesn't look good to me is why was KO told if he forfeited that match with SVB, he (ko) would not receive any money from this tournament, even know he was clearly in the money!

But Ralf still got his money and as we all know Ralf was the one to forfeit in the first place, causing all this commotion !

Now how can anybody tell KO If he forfeits, then he gets no money!

Somebody f-up and it sure wasn't KO!
 

vincentwu817

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
+

What really doesn't look good to me is why was KO told if he forfeited that match with SVB, he (ko) would not receive any money from this tournament, even know he was clearly in the money!

But Ralf still got his money and as we all know Ralf was the one to forfeit in the first place, causing all this commotion !

Now how can anybody tell KO If he forfeits, then he gets no money!

Somebody f-up and it sure wasn't KO!

This is what I am wondering too. I have first hand source that this indeed happen, unless there was an "error" in translation.
 

SakuJack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is what I am wondering too. I have first hand source that this indeed happen, unless there was an "error" in translation.

It is quite unsettling. I get what you mean about the possibility of an error in translation (no money could have actually meant "if you refuse to play SVB then you forfeit the match and just get semi-final money"), but honestly, either way I don't like the sound of an innocent part in this (Ko) being strong armed in some way.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not really.

Silence /= compliance.

I have now moved on. I spent a great deal of money on TAR streams and I supported this stream, I have spent a considerable amount of time commending the BCAPL league system as the best there is on this forum and in person, and I have been a fan of pool for decades.

My lack of posting anymore (other then this response to the "assumed" reason in order to correct the error) is that I am done with it.

There is no point in posting anymore. They did what they did, I have made a decision that this event was the last event of CSI's that I will pay for or watch. I have absolutely no idea if Itsfroze's post up there is correct about the idea that Ko refused to play SVB and was threatened not to be paid, but if that is true that is again something that makes me a little ill to my stomach. The things that went down that night were fairly gross TBH and watching the stream that was supposed to be enjoyable entertainment ended up making me feel like crap watching it all go down. I am happy Little Ko won, but I was not online to watch it, I went and watched TV after they pulled their crap.

They totally have their right to run "their" event as they see fit, and I have every right to choose whether or not to pull out "my" Visa and support their product or not. From this day forth their product will see none of my money. It is sad, because as of last week I thought they were the best thing North American pool had going for it, but this whole scene stunk and it killed CSI for me personally. If others are still cool with CSI and enjoy their product that is good for them and I am happy for them and CSI both. But when the next CSI promotion takes place I will be spending my money elsewhere on another form of entertainment.

My silence is not because I am waiting for a response. I don't give a crap what the response is at this point, I am over it and I am done with them and that means I really don't see much of a point in commenting on it anymore.

I just wanted to make sure that you and others know that my own absence and silence is not "gee Celtic must be waiting for the official response to see what his final thoughts will be." I have already decided to not "pay" to see this type of BS again. They fooled me once into paying to see it, it will certainly never happen again.


OK, dooley noted.

Lou Figueroa
mark +1 in that column
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
+

What really doesn't look good to me is why was KO told if he forfeited that match with SVB, he (ko) would not receive any money from this tournament, even know he was clearly in the money!

But Ralf still got his money and as we all know Ralf was the one to forfeit in the first place, causing all this commotion !

Now how can anybody tell KO If he forfeits, then he gets no money!

Somebody f-up and it sure wasn't KO!


I dan't know. Like "most" I await Mark's side of the story with bait on my breath.

Lou Figueroa
 

pro9dg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's not handled this way in Pool, never has been and you know it.
Say whatever you want it's your right. I will too, that's why I apologized
to Ko Pin Yi that's my right. That's the way it is sorry you don't like it. :D

There are not too many times that you and I agree on this forum.But I think that you are 100% right on this one.
The contingent of Taiwan players are as nice a bunch of professional sportsman as you could wish to meet. They would have to have a pretty strong case if they protested about a decision.
 

pro9dg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For many years now I have been involved in the running of WPA sanctioned World 8 Ball and World 9 Ball Championship. These are played to the following format - Players who win two opening matches advance to the single KO stage as seeds.
Players with a 50% record face a playoff which will give one of them the required two wins. But they go into the knockout stages as unseeded players.
Once they are charted then no changes are made.
Any withdrawal are treated as a bye with the winning player advancing to the next round. In the unlikely case of them reaching the next round and still finding no opponent then he will advance another round. That is just his good luck

itsfroze you say this has how it's always been - please find another situation like this, with a two-stage tournament, where someone forfeited and wasn't replaced. If it's so obvious then there should be plenty of examples.

Yes, if it's double or single elimination, then a forfeit is a loss and the opponent advances. But that wasn't the situation here. It was clearly a 2-stage event where the first stage resulted in rankings.

The best precedent I can think of is the World 9-ball championships in Qatar just last month, where they had a stage 1 qualifying round and then the main stage. Are you telling me that if the winner of a stage 1 bracket had to forfeit before the main stage, they would have just left a gap in the final brackets? I don't believe it, but I couldn't find an example. You think it's always been that way, so please find an example.

My guess is that it hasn't happened very often, if at all in a major tournament. But it clearly hasn't always been that you leave a gap in the final brackets.
 

NlceGuy

Registered
It is quite unsettling. I get what you mean about the possibility of an error in translation (no money could have actually meant "if you refuse to play SVB then you forfeit the match and just get semi-final money"), but honestly, either way I don't like the sound of an innocent part in this (Ko) being strong armed in some way.

Not only is it true, it was not the first time either. The same threat was uttered when they didn't want to do the mandatory FREE lessons for hour a day, after paying entry fee and flight to attend this 'invitational'.

Overall, it was a badly run event and really showed Mark and CSI's true colors. The threat of money was used on more then the Taiwanese, there were those involved in the broadcast staff that didn't like the decision either and received similar threats. Even if this event were to ever happen again, without some major changes to the format/money, at least half the field here will likely not be back.

At this point, its all over and the results speak for themselves. Not even the last minute 'no jump cue' rule could stop big and little ko from steamrolling the 10 ball event. And little ko showed a lot of heart to not get distracted and play near perfect pool to win the 8 ball finals. Despite everything, we did get to witness some great pool. :thumbup:
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
[...]
Once they are charted then no changes are made.Any withdrawal are treated as a bye with the winning player advancing to the next round. In the unlikely case of them reaching the next round and still finding no opponent then he will advance another round. That is just his good luck

So is that what all the outage is about? It's just the timing of the replacement? So had the charts not already been drawn putting in a replacement would not have been a big deal to anyone?

For whatever reason, many people on this site are just too emotionally invested in this. Why that is, I have no idea. Is it because we all had such big hopes for this tournament? Or maybe it’s because we all want professional pool to thrive so badly. Is that it? Is it because we have all been looking forward to having all these top players compete in the U.S. for some time? I really don't know what the answer to that question is. But let me pose a different hypothetical question and one that very easily could have happened.

Let's say the Ko brothers each reached the semi-finals only to realize they both had to head home or risk missing their plane. Would everyone be as outraged if CSI chose to fill those two vacancies? I'm not so sure there would be as much outage. I think everyone would have been pleased to see Appleton and SVB get another shot. Or whoever else would have filled those spots, especially if it was Efren - who everybody loves. Honestly, would everybody be outraged if CSI filled those two spots? Or would everybody understand that there was a tournament to be run and the next two players would need to step up?

Would everyone say -- "WAIT A SECOND!!! The charts have already been drawn and they were drawn in ink so they can't be erased. We must move right ahead to the finals." What if a portion of the first name was only written down on the chart? I can't imagine where we would even begin to sort out that epic moral quandary.

But I guess a rule is a rule and if the point of no return is once the chart is drawn than so be it. So the outrage is that CSI chose to break a written (or unwritten) rule by redrawing a chart. I could see that being worthy of criticism, but certainly not worthy of the death penalty or its equivalent -- no longer supporting CSI events.

I lied. Maybe I do know what's going on here. I think there are three things at play. First, we have reached a SVB saturation level. We all know he is a great player and clearly the best in the U.S. but many have simply grown tired of seeing him play. Second, many people have been suspect of the move toward invitational tournaments and excluding certain U.S. professionals from the mix. And last but most importantly, I think most of us U.S. pool fans (and our Canadian brothers) are decent people and we want to be viewed this way from the international players when they come here. We don't want them to feel slighted in the least because this makes us all look bad in a sense.

Now when you throw these three things into a blender and mix them all up you get the type of outrage that we have seen on this forum. But if you don't mix these things together and you just look at what actually took place in this tournament I don't think you will be as outraged. Instead, you will just possibly conclude that CSI made a mistake by redrawing the brackets after the fact. They didn't set out to screw someone over since this is not something they have a history of doing, at least not without a good reason. They weren't trying to push Shane into the final because he's their poster boy because had this happened in Appleton's group, I'm certain they would have done the same thing.

So just look at what happened. Is the outrage here REALLY because they redrew a portion of the bracket after the fact or are other things at play here?

I for one -- think there are other things at play and CSI really deserves better than that.
 
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