Rail recalibration.

trentfromtoledo said:

"I think your talking your customers out of calibrating the rails......cause you don't offer that."<<<<<<-------Mark Gregory keeps badgering me about this and I have already answered him:

I tell every single Anniversary, Centennial and Gold Crown 1 & 2 customer about the Monarch Cushions being a bit smaller (1/8") than the Brunswick Superspeed and that they are not an exact fit. I then let them know that there are a handful of guys that actually modify the subrails to fit and the table plays more like a GC5 or Diamond. NONE of them have ever said they wanted this done to their tables. I tell every prospective customer the same things and none have expressed interest.

My question to all the other mechanics out there: Do you modify or send the rails out for every Anniversary, Centennial and Gold Crown 1 & 2 project you take on?? With out a customer asking for it?

Part 2: if you do the modification, or have someone else do it, it makes the table cost more in the end correct? Just wondering everyone else's thoughts.

I think Mark has a hard time understanding that many people who buy these tables are buying them for the looks and are not so concerned with the table playing like GC5 or Diamond. ALL of the clients I have restored Anniversary's and the one Centennial were. I stopped dealing with GC2 tables because of it and prefer to deal in GC4's. The GC4 was designed to fit the Superspeed Cushion and I am gonna take a guess that Mark will chime in and say they still need to be recalibrated. Never mind what the manufacturer says ! LOL

Thanks

Trent from Toledo

P.s. Also, when modifying and Antique: Doesn't a modification make it not original anymore?

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I'm not badgering you....I'm asking you a question you keep dodging.
But now...after reading this post....you answered my question.
Your putting cushions on a table that don't fit and hang over the bottom....so now the cushions not glued on the sub rail properly.
I thought that's what you were doing.......people want more than looks on these table.....they don't have to play the Jerimy and Glen and I make them play.....but I would think they wouldn't want to spend big money and have the cushions not fit on the table......here I'm going to help you out......after everyone looks the table over and says the table look good.....then guess what.....all that want to do with the table is play pool on it.
They no longer care how it looks.......they care how it plays.
You have crossed a lot of people in this industry.....I'm the only one standing up.....cause you called me out first......I didn't mention you or your work in my post to the guy that asked about formica....you opened your big mouth trying to knock me.
Now I'm going to keep hammer you.
Mark Gregory

The cushion nose height needs to be 1 7/16" and I measure every set I have put on, right on the money, everytime. Now is the 9 foot table a true 50" x" 100" no, it is short the 1/4" each way. No bulge at the bottom of the rail either.

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What about the angle where the cushion glues to , Trent? Is it the same for Monarch or Superspeed ? I have a GC 2.
I thought 1 13/32 was the right height.
Tnx

trentfromtoledo said:

From my original post "Monarch Cushions being a bit smaller (1/8") than the Brunswick Superspeed and that they are not an exact fit." I do not think the angle is the same.
As I have mentioned I do not know how to perform the sub-rail adjustment as of yet.
From what I have learned is that Bunswick Superspeed Cushions do not fit the GC2 correctly either because the table came with monarch cushions.

Are you saying you have Superspeeds on a GC2 with out the sub rails adjusted? If so, how do you think it plays?


Trent from Toledo

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You don't know how to make sub rail adjustments....but your super speed cushions don't hang over the bottom and the nose height is 1-7/16th on the money.....you want everyone to believe that...LOL
And yes....I do recalibrate the GC4 tables to my specs and trust me....the 4s I redo play way better than the come from the factory...and that's a fact.

I just did 15 of them in the last year......and the really play great.
Glens doing the same adjustments to tables as well.....ask him how much of a difference it makes.
The manufacturer builds the table and sells them....it's the mechanics job to make the play great.
You are good on the computer.....I give you that......pool tables...?????
Mark Gregory

Table

Hey shithead, Do you realized what u just said...? Earlier you said ur cushion fit the table with no over hang.... Then here u said you know the k55 cushions are larger today than the monarch cushions of the 50's.... How the hell do you get the cushions to fit with no overhang if they are to big.....?


Stick to your popular mechanics website and stay off here unless u want to hear the truth, everything I've said to you in PM's a long time ago is the same things your hearing ppl say to you over and over again about pool table mechanics...you are in over your head around here trying to talk pool tables...

WE AROUND HERE ARE INTO "PLAYERS" TABLES..NOT FURNITURE!!



I don't know what ur after badgering mark about using a cell phone to post....DO YOU HAVE A CELL PHONE THAT DONT REQUIRE WIFI TO MAKE CALLS OR TEXT??
I have not talked to mark on phone in months....but I do know he's got more money in a computer than you probably have in tools.




Rob.M








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trentfromtoledo said:

From my original post "Monarch Cushions being a bit smaller (1/8") than the Brunswick Superspeed and that they are not an exact fit." I do not think the angle is the same.
As I have mentioned I do not know how to perform the sub-rail adjustment as of yet.
From what I have learned is that Bunswick Superspeed Cushions do not fit the GC2 correctly either because the table came with monarch cushions.

Are you saying you have Superspeeds on a GC2 with out the sub rails adjusted? If so, how do you think it plays?


Trent from Toledo

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Trent ran off line.....he's not having fun anymore....LMAO

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Trent...you need to stop with Marks picking on me...so I look like the bad guy.
I'm not picking on you.....I'm asking you to answer some questions.
We all know you don't know much about pool tables.....and that's fine....but you shouldn't act like you do if you really don't.
Here's some pointers for you.....what are you doing about the rails on those antiques as you put it......about the corners not having the same miter cut....the corners and side that were sanded by so many people screwing the pockets up....all the worm wood under the rail for millions of stapes over the years...and that's just a few questions on the rails.
We all know the veneer gets new...the casting get buffed....everything gets stained....who can't do that to tables.
What about the slates...what are you doing to fix them....these tables are old and screwed up from top to bottom.
Buffing and staining makes your customers happy....I would love to have those guys for customers.....the first question customers ask me on every phone call.....is can you make the pockets this tight....are you going to calibrate the sub rails....can I get Artemis cushions....can you make it play like a Diamond.
What about the t-brackets in the ends of the rails holding the castings on....they are so damaged....they won't even hold the castings in place.
The down Angels of the pockets are so damaged.....and sanded to the wrong bevel.
I could go on and on.....but I'm picking on you.....now we all know why you make GOOD money on the tables....you put a little as possible into them....and charge top dollar for them.
But you going to try and put my prices up on this forum....which are wrong.....and the forum is not allowed to post prices....so you can say your customers don't want to pay extra for rail work.....are you. Kidding everyone.....who would want to spend good money and not have the rails restored at worst....not calibrated....but at least replace the dmaged wood in them.
You have been putting your foot in your mouth since you been posting.....and I just kept leading you right into your bullshit stories.
Do you have any idea how much the rails are off even on today's tables....Greg Sullivan knocks his brain in everyday trying to get his Diamond table to play better and better.
Think about it....if he's doing that to a table most players love plying on.....think of just how bad those tables were back in the 40s 50s until tables of today.
We all heard it over and over here's my inventory thanks for looking....and my customers love my tables....and I make good money...that's all you say.
Tell us something that has to do with the questions we ask you......you do minimal work to the tables......put as little materials into the tables.....and make as much as you can profit cutting corners.
Have I missed anything Trent.....and I didn't type from my little iPhone.....you want to answer...or just say how happy you are restoring tables....don't you mean having them done by others.
Mark Gregory

I am not a table mechanic just a customer. I will share my customer perspective. I have a GCII, about 2 years ago I wanted new cloth and cushions. Local table installers tried to talk me out of having my sub-rails modified, they said it was not needed. Through the interweb I learned that my table had Monarchs on it and they no longer made a current profile to match. All the installers said a K55 (that's what i think they said they would use) would be close enough and that nose height would be correct but playing surface would be 1/4" smaller, I figured no big deal. Then I thought some more and realized this meant my table would no longer be twice as long as it is wide. When I measured my playing surface in original configuration it was exactly 100" long & 50" wide. The more I thought it about it the more it seemed a bad idea to put on the wrong cushions. My table is a very slightly used GCII that was privately owned its entire life. It really started to bother me that people were trying to talk me into gaffing up a perfectly nice table with the wrong cushions. In the end I had my rails modified for current cushions, my playing surface is still 100" x 50" and the table seems to play very, very nice. It would have cost me close to $1k with Artemis cushions, Simonis, and labor, why would I want to spend that much money to intentionally screw my table up. Had I not had the rails modified and I was unhappy or became unhappy with the performance of the table that would have been $1k down the drain. In the end I spent a little more money but I also ended up with zero regrets. FWIW I did not have Mark do my rails, I was discussing it with him but he was pretty busy at the time so my table would have been down for quite a while, but he was my first choice. If someone has something that's really nice I just do not understand why they would knowingly make less than ideal modifications.

trentfromtoledo said:

Now the installer actually trying to talk you out of it and you wanted it, that is not right. I try to sell the option and people simply never have accepted it. I just got off the phone with a very reputable mechanic that does rails and he says most people are not willing to pay the extra. He went on to say that the percentage of people who will is very small.

I have spent waaaay to much time with this back & forth on here and I have now realized it. Lesson learned!

Trent from Toledo

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You asking people for and up charge and something that should be done to the table....what don't you understand about that?
Some people don't want to get their rails done.....I agree.....but not what you call a table restored.....and ask for more money when the job should be preformed without question. What don't get between the 2 different oppsions.
Mark Gregory

trentfromtoledo said:

People make choices. I offer tables with options, clients choose. It is that simple.
I have spoken to 3 mechanics today that offer sub rail modification and they quoted me very fair prices and 1 week turn around time. Your next complaint will be that the person who did the work is not capable of doing it. I don't care what you think anymore.

Now that I have 3 different options of mechanics to do the sub rail work I am all set!

You will never be satisfied and I don't really care. I don't owe you s h i t and I am done going back an forth with you. You can have the last word Mark, I hope it makes you feel great. I won't be replying to anymore of your posts. I am not going anywhere, I will be continuing to post my work whether you like it or not. Have a great night!

Trent

New pictures of my Centennial project up here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/album.php?albumid=1481

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No as usual it's the same Craig's list advertised response.
I have no problem with who does your rails for whatever prices they get.....I'm happy now your at least giving your customers decent playing tables IF you have the rails done.....wonder how much your going to tack on for that....and you have the nerve to say I'm high priced?
BOY.....you have a lot to learn.....but with your little girl additude......it's going to take awhile.
Last word

Mark Gregory

My 2 cents, if the rubber needs replaced on those tables, the modification needs done. Fastone kinda nailed it although he didn't elaborate. A 9' should be 50x100". Without mods, you're at 49-3/4"x99-3/4", in other words, not at length = 2 x width, in other words no longer regulation playing surface specs. Your diamond system is inaccurate at that point.

When dealing with an older table with Monarch rubber, I don't really present it as an option. If you're replacing the rubber, it's going to be more expensive because that mod needs to be done to keep the playing surface where it needs to be. My priority as a mechanic is playability before furniture. You're in the unique position of not really needing to "sell" that mod. It's something that needs to be included in the price of replacing the rubber.

I always wonder how many people would try to buy a car without windows if they were sold as an option you had to pay for. :grin:

trentfromtoledo said:

Josh,

I appreciate your opinion on the topic and also that you quoted me a fair price the other day when I called you about the sub rail modification. Your turn around time and being in the same state makes everything much more feasible than the other options I have explored in the past. The price I was quoted was double yours and that did not include shipping them 700miles on top of it. I look forward to getting a set of rails down to you on my next project.
Thanks again.

Trent from Toledo

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Trent instead of always trying to do your best at knocking me with your little hints of yours....why don't you just tell the truth....you asked me to do the rail work and not put cushions on...so you could copy my work.....I turned you down.....I didn't want your work then....I don't want your work now.
What you fail to understand....no sets of rails are a like.....so trying to paint by numbers is never going to work.
Go about your own business.....and stay out of mine....I do no business with you....as well as you with me.
Your the one that started this.....but you play the nice guy act and think everything's fine.......maybe everyone should read some of your smart ass comments you have made to members in the pass...then they may see just who you really are.
You have table work you need done....that has nothing to do with me.....so stop your childest comments.....and grow up BOY.
other than posting your inventory 100s of times....try answering some questions on here...that's what Talk To A Mechanic is for.....not turning it into Craig's List.
Since we're advertising....Ken Hash at Classicbilliards.net refinished tables blow your's away.
As long as you keep being me into your posts....the more I'm going to keep informing people......and if they get your tables and don't like the play.....they can always look back and say I warned them.
I got in these threads and tried given Jerimy props......but you had to come on here and try and knock me.....my work speaks for it's self.....you have to play the game......understand the game....before you can ever understand how cushions and tables are supposed to play correctly.
Which of those do you fall under?
If you want to keep on and on....keep posting your little digs about me.....but it's going to get ugly for sure.
Go about your business.....as I will of mine.
Mark Gregory