"Aiming Systems" are Junk, DO the Work!

lfigueroa · Sep 4, 2017

BC21 said:
As long as you keep placing the sticky mark on the OB the student will always know exactly where to aim, as long the sticky is in the right place. But it's not practical to mark the spot on every shot. When you remove the sticky and the student has to visualize the spot, it'll take a few thousand shots before they really start to get it.

My whole point with aiming systems is that if a system allows the player to know exactly where to aim, the player will pocket a greater percentage of those thousands of shots, which will allow him/her to develop a feel for it much quicker. This doesn't apply to systems that require tons of shots just to get it working. I mean, if you work everyday for a month or two before finally understanding how your aiming system works, you probably could've already improved using ghostball or contact points throughout this same time period.

I believe that's what you're saying, and I agree with that conclusion. But I don't believe all aiming systems can be lumped into that category.

Well, I agree that it's a bit of a problem moving the spot around, so maybe you just use a red circle CB for training purposes to make it practical. My proposition is that after a while the student will grasp the concept and wouldn't need the visual. I doubt it would take thousands of shots, perhaps a few dozen -- I just don't believe it's all that hard.

What's hard is hitting that spot consistently while playing position. It's the stuff you're doing with the CB that makes it tough and that's what takes thousands of shots and years to learn.

Lou Figueroa

Low500 · Sep 4, 2017

There are times when prudence is best.

stan shuffett said:
No pivot-just see and align
You said that the offset is to a perception-the offset is to CCB
Sure, there are perceptions
Where to line up? Anywhere from standing to full stance
CTE is a total approach to playing the game....Visually and physically
CTE is not a tool for occasional use.....CTE is full time..It's the way you play.
CTE is see and align.....Its that simple but there is a framework to learn if you want to know how to really see the balls and how to correctly align.
Stan Shuffett

Mr. Shuffett.
Perfectly stated.
I had the perceptions down in a week. I had the manual pivoting down in about a week and a half. (I don't look at myself as being "all that smart" either...I just worked at it a few hours a day and there it was..not all that hard)
I have no plans to move into the Pro 1 approach since I'm perfectly comfortable with manual pivoting. I can really "see" what's happening that way.
I never ran 100 in straights in my life until I put your CTE thing into use along with making sure my dominant right eye was in control..and not relying on that Willie Mosconi thing of both eyes over the cue.
To me, there is nothing more pleasing in pool shooting than to be jammed up on the rail, trying to sink a straight-in into a 4 1/4 inch pocket 9 feet away...and watch that cue ball roll pure and clean all the way to contact and then see the object ball go into that pocket. That, to me, is the biggest contribution from the CTE approach....the pure, rolling ball...., slow and easy or like a rocket. With no deflection to be trying to "allow for".
I know you remember Billy Johnson....he drilled a lot of big time pool players using nothing but that rolling ball with either follow, draw, or stun....relying on the angles, force, and speed for shape. Rarely did he use any english...usually on those thin cuts when the object ball is frozen on the rail, that was about it.
Yes. it's true his position play wasn't of the caliber of SVB, Eddie Kelly, Grady Mathews, or Buddy Hall. But, his shotmaking offset any deficiencies in "precision shape". It probably wasn't the CTE formula, but I'm betting it was close. I watched him for many years.
As for you not putting any more information on here, I wouldn't blame you at all.
Might just be a good idea to lay low until you've completed your book on this subject and then let it speak for itself.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

BC21 · Sep 4, 2017

lfigueroa said:
Well, I agree that it's a bit of a problem moving the spot around, so maybe you just use a red circle CB for training purposes to make it practical. My proposition is that after a while the student will grasp the concept and wouldn't need the visual. I doubt it would take thousands of shots, perhaps a few dozen -- I just don't believe it's all that hard.

What's hard is hitting that spot consistently while playing position. It's the stuff you're doing with the CB that makes it tough and that's what takes thousands of shots and years to learn.

Lou Figueroa

I agree with most of this. Maybe "thousands" of shots is a little much, but I don't think a few dozen would get it unless we're talking about aiming at known aim points for known angles, not guessing at a contact point or ghostball center. Those spots are difficult to imagine from varying angles. A player would need to shoot a few dozen shots at each varying angle, and with the multitude of shot angles that come up, the process would take dozens upon dozens of shots before any sort of consistency established.

Played some one pocket last night, then straights, then 9ball, and ended with 8ball. Played from 7pm until 3am this morning. Not gambling....just hitting with a friend I've known for about 25 years. I got him in straights, though never hit big run. I hit 28 once, then 22 another time. Tough game, especially on a tough table. I easily won the 1-hole games because he doesn't play the game much any more. Then I got him 3 to 2 out of 5 little games if straight pool to 50. After that he crushed me 7-2 in 9ball. But I finished strong beating him 5-2 in a set if 8ball.

I told him about my test (aiming analysis) with Heather, my wife. And we got to talking about when we each first started playing pool. We agreed learning to pocket balls did not take us too long, but only compared to other beginning players we knew. I'd go to my cousin's house to play pool when I was 15. They'd had the pool table since I was little. I remember seeing it many times but never played until I was 15. Anyway, as a beginner no cousins or neighborhood kids could pocket balls like I could, and they lived there and played more often. So maybe, while learning to aim, a few dozen shots would suffice for a handful of players, but the vast majority of beginners need a lot more.

We also talked about how our shot-making skills took a dive years later when we switched from bar room 8ball to pool hall 9ball. This is because a new element was introduced into our games, -- the need to play more accurate position with the CB, which took a long while, years, to finally develop a feel for it.

lfigueroa · Sep 4, 2017

BC21 said:
I agree with most of this. Maybe "thousands" of shots is a little much, but I don't think a few dozen would get it unless we're talking about aiming at known aim points for known angles, not guessing at a contact point or ghostball center. Those spots are difficult to imagine from varying angles. A player would need to shoot a few dozen shots at each varying angle, and with the multitude of shot angles that come up, the process would take dozens upon dozens of shots before any sort of consistency established.

Played some one pocket last night, then straights, then 9ball, and ended with 8ball. Played from 7pm until 3am this morning. Not gambling....just hitting with a friend I've known for about 25 years. I got him in straights, though never hit big run. I hit 28 once, then 22 another time. Tough game, especially on a tough table. I easily won the 1-hole games because he doesn't play the game much any more. Then I got him 3 to 2 out of 5 little games if straight pool to 50. After that he crushed me 7-2 in 9ball. But I finished strong beating him 5-2 in a set if 8ball.

I told him about my test (aiming analysis) with Heather, my wife. And we got to talking about when we each first started playing pool. We agreed learning to pocket balls did not take us too long, but only compared to other beginning players we knew. I'd go to my cousin's house to play pool when I was 15. They'd had the pool table since I was little. I remember seeing it many times but never played until I was 15. Anyway, as a beginner no cousins or neighborhood kids could pocket balls like I could, and they lived there and played more often. So maybe, while learning to aim, a few dozen shots would suffice for a handful of players, but the vast majority of beginners need a lot more.

We also talked about how our shot-making skills took a dive years later when we switched from bar room 8ball to pool hall 9ball. This is because a new element was introduced into our games, -- the need to play more accurate position with the CB, which took a long while, years, to finally develop a feel for it.

I started out young too, playing on a homemade table one of the older guys in the neighborhood had made, then moving on to an actual pool hall with a buddy. I got better, he did not and he gave up after a few months.

A higher degree of accuracy is a biggie.

I played on normal GC's most of my life and hitting the rail a diamond or two before the pocket wouldn't stop the balls from dropping. Then, when I moved to St. Louis, I encountered my first GCs setup for 1pocket. You could still play the rail some. Now I play on Diamonds and I have had to improve my accuracy even further and that has been taking me a while. But the payoff has been that I don't need the rail (much

BTW, today for a brief while I tried to figure out what I was looking at to "aim" and the absolute truth of the matter is that I just look at the ball/shot and shoot. I'm not looking a specific spot or portion on the OB, no overlap, no ghost ball.

Now I know some might doubt that but for the 10 minutes or so I was trying to observe I couldn't see anything more than the shot itself, so I just forgot about it and kept shooting.

Lou Figueroa

BC21 · Sep 4, 2017

lfigueroa said:
.........

BTW, today for a brief while I tried to figure out what I was looking at to "aim" and the absolute truth of the matter is that I just look at the ball/shot and shoot. I'm not looking a specific spot or portion on the OB, no overlap, no ghost ball.

Now I know some might doubt that but for the 10 minutes or so I was trying to observe I couldn't see anything more than the shot itself, so I just forgot about it and kept shooting.

Lou Figueroa

Same here my friend. I don't remember learning any aiming methods other than looking and shooting, and eventually it started working very well. And that's something that can't be taught. I can throw a ball out on the table and immediately fire it in without thinking about anything except the position of the balls in reference to the pocket. But I can't tell someone else how to do it. After my wife did the analysis for me, I showed her a homemade trick shot then fired 3 or 4 full table cut shots in, just showing off (she doesn't hang out in my pool room often)

After each shot, as soon as the CB stopped, I fired the next shot into the pocket. I told her if she practiced she could do that too, but she just laughed and went back upstairs.

I wrote my book hoping it would provide an alternative path to playing like I play, or like you play, by feel or instinct, but in a fraction of the time it took for us to learn how to do it.

stan shuffett · Sep 5, 2017

Low500 said:
Mr. Shuffett.
Perfectly stated.
I had the perceptions down in a week. I had the manual pivoting down in about a week and a half. (I don't look at myself as being "all that smart" either...I just worked at it a few hours a day and there it was..not all that hard)
I have no plans to move into the Pro 1 approach since I'm perfectly comfortable with manual pivoting. I can really "see" what's happening that way.
I never ran 100 in straights in my life until I put your CTE thing into use along with making sure my dominant right eye was in control..and not relying on that Willie Mosconi thing of both eyes over the cue.
To me, there is nothing more pleasing in pool shooting than to be jammed up on the rail, trying to sink a straight-in into a 4 1/4 inch pocket 9 feet away...and watch that cue ball roll pure and clean all the way to contact and then see the object ball go into that pocket. That, to me, is the biggest contribution from the CTE approach....the pure, rolling ball...., slow and easy or like a rocket. With no deflection to be trying to "allow for".
I know you remember Billy Johnson....he drilled a lot of big time pool players using nothing but that rolling ball with either follow, draw, or stun....relying on the angles, force, and speed for shape. Rarely did he use any english...usually on those thin cuts when the object ball is frozen on the rail, that was about it.
Yes. it's true his position play wasn't of the caliber of SVB, Eddie Kelly, Grady Mathews, or Buddy Hall. But, his shotmaking offset any deficiencies in "precision shape". It probably wasn't the CTE formula, but I'm betting it was close. I watched him for many years.
As for you not putting any more information on here, I wouldn't blame you at all.
Might just be a good idea to lay low until you've completed your book on this subject and then let it speak for itself.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

Thanks, I appreciate your support and comments.
Still truckin for certain. Unsure of my direction, though. Plenty enough options.
Stan Shuffett

Bobkitty · Sep 7, 2017

dr_dave said:
Dennis,

FYI, that is not an accurate statement. There are a wide variety of aiming systems that some people find helpful, especially for certain shots and situations. In fact, Bob and I have put out a 3-DVD instructional series called How to Aim Pool Shots (HAPS) dealing with aiming systems. So we certainly don't think buying such a product is stupid.

It is true that Bob and I both think some "aiming system" proponents in the past have made unreasonable (and sometimes outrageous) claims about the magical nature of their system (for example, see the satirical DAM marketing blurb). But cut-shot aiming systems do offer both tangible and intangible benefits to the people who find them helpful.
Regards,
Dave

I just don't see how a very difficult "aiming system" could not include at least 3-5 parts of the pocket. Everyone knows that the angle of the CB into the OB, into the pocket can vary the path of the CB takes. Every shot my teacher takes, he tries to pocket the OB into the pocket at the appropriate angle (1-5 parts) for the CB to maneuver around the table. He can announce it as he goes along. He is a center ball player unless English is needed. I would ask any descender to find a professional pool instructor that can demonstrate that for them. In my first column, I demonstrated that as a hustler, he needed to hit the points of a pocket for a miss. 1/2 diamond out would not convince his opponent he was hoping to miss. Which derived "aiming system" teaches that?

HawaiianEye · Sep 7, 2017

denwhit said:
I just don't see how a very difficult "aiming system" could not include at least 3-5 parts of the pocket. Everyone knows that the angle of the CB into the OB, into the pocket can vary the path of the CB takes. Every shot my teacher takes, he tries to pocket the OB into the pocket at the appropriate angle (1-5 parts) for the CB to maneuver around the table. He can announce it as he goes along. He is a center ball player unless English is needed. I would ask any descender to find a professional pool instructor that can demonstrate that for them. In my first column, I demonstrated that as a hustler, he needed to hit the points of a pocket for a miss. 1/2 diamond out would not convince his opponent he was hoping to miss. Which derived "aiming system" teaches that?

Why don't you record some of your guy's stuff and put it online here so we can check it out? Unless he is camera shy, of course.

Dan White · Sep 7, 2017

denwhit said:
I just don't see how a very difficult "aiming system" could not include at least 3-5 parts of the pocket. Everyone knows that the angle of the CB into the OB, into the pocket can vary the path of the CB takes. Every shot my teacher takes, he tries to pocket the OB into the pocket at the appropriate angle (1-5 parts) for the CB to maneuver around the table. He can announce it as he goes along. He is a center ball player unless English is needed. I would ask any descender to find a professional pool instructor that can demonstrate that for them. In my first column, I demonstrated that as a hustler, he needed to hit the points of a pocket for a miss. 1/2 diamond out would not convince his opponent he was hoping to miss. Which derived "aiming system" teaches that?

I'm not sure why you are so hung up on hitting multiple parts of the pocket in regards to aiming systems. As far as I know Stan's method is the only one that purports to be able to hit the center of the pocket. If that is in fact the case, then I imagine the solution to hitting one side of the pocket or the other is a matter of tweaking the alignment that the aiming system gives you.

By and large, aiming systems are for recreational players and discussion of splitting the pocket into subdivisions is far too advanced.

Lassiter told my father that he divides the pocket into 3 sections -- left, center, right, and that was on generally larger pockets than we have today. I doubt anything above that level of detail is useful for 99.9999% of players.

PS - Welcome back!

Bobkitty · Sep 7, 2017

HawaiianEye said:
Why don't you record some of your guy's stuff and put it online here so we can check it out? Unless he is camera shy, of course.

I'm sure any professional pool player can do the same stuff if he isn't reliant on an aiming system that only can hit the middle of the pocket . He is a stop shot/ tangent player and everything the CB does is related to that instinct. Watch the tangent line change as the OB changes from 1 (thickest) all the way to 5 (thinnest) to the pocket. 5 different lines. Doing that, proves the point of the whole post.

Bobkitty · Sep 7, 2017

Dan White said:
I'm not sure why you are so hung up on hitting multiple parts of the pocket in regards to aiming systems. As far as I know Stan's method is the only one that purports to be able to hit the center of the pocket. If that is in fact the case, then I imagine the solution to hitting one side of the pocket or the other is a matter of tweaking the alignment that the aiming system gives you.

By and large, aiming systems are for recreational players and discussion of splitting the pocket into subdivisions is far too advanced.

Lassiter told my father that he divides the pocket into 3 sections -- left, center, right, and that was on generally larger pockets than we have today. I doubt anything above that level of detail is useful for 99.9999% of players.

PS - Welcome back!

Many thanks.

cookie man · Sep 7, 2017

Dan White said:
I'm not sure why you are so hung up on hitting multiple parts of the pocket in regards to aiming systems. As far as I know Stan's method is the only one that purports to be able to hit the center of the pocket. If that is in fact the case, then I imagine the solution to hitting one side of the pocket or the other is a matter of tweaking the alignment that the aiming system gives you.

By and large, aiming systems are for recreational players and discussion of splitting the pocket into subdivisions is far too advanced.

Lassiter told my father that he divides the pocket into 3 sections -- left, center, right, and that was on generally larger pockets than we have today. I doubt anything above that level of detail is useful for 99.9999% of players.

PS - Welcome back!

Except CTE Pro-One is used by US Amatuer Champion,multi time winner, former mosconi cup player, several mid level pro's.. Not just recreational players

But you are right on one thing, a minor adjustment and we can hit different parts of the pocket. More then likely though players are using english to get position around the table.

Bobkitty · Sep 7, 2017

cookie man said:
Except CTE Pro-One is used by US Amatuer Champion,multi time winner, former mosconi cup player, several mid level pro's.. Not just recreational players

But you are right on one thing, a minor adjustment and we can hit different parts of the pocket. More then likely though players are using english to get position around the table.

If the pool player has not had someone like the teaching pro that I use, I guess there is nothing they can do to see it. There are many, many CB paths off of the OB's that the stop shot/ tangent player can do that the spin players can't do. I've seen it so many times. By stop shot/ tangent players, I mean they can take a shot of 15-30 degrees (or so) and make the CB go anywhere on the table by using center top to center bottom cue tip on the CB and SPEED. To do this, they need to determine 1-5 position of the OB into the hole pockets. Nothing else to know. What a beautiful way to play, IMO!
I would like to see someone that is working on "an aiming" system to put the OB in the center of the table and with a 15-30 degree angle (something conducive) of the CB from a diamond away and make the OB into the left angled part of the pocket, maybe slightly hitting the rail, middle of the pocket, and then to the right edge of the pocket. I'm sure you can do it, but what "aiming system" did you use? I think you HAVE to know these lines.

Low500 · Sep 7, 2017

denwhit said:
If the pool player has not had someone like the teaching pro that I use, I guess there is nothing they can do to see it. There are many, many CB paths off of the OB's that the stop shot/ tangent player can do that the spin players can't do. I've seen it so many times. By stop shot/ tangent players, I mean they can take a shot of 15-30 degrees (or so) and make the CB go anywhere on the table by using center top to center bottom cue tip on the CB and SPEED. To do this, they need to determine 1-5 position of the OB into the hole pockets. Nothing else to know. What a beautiful way to play, IMO!
I would like to see someone that is working on "an aiming" system to put the OB in the center of the table and with a 15-30 degree angle (something conducive) of the CB from a diamond away and make the OB into the left angled part of the pocket, maybe slightly hitting the rail, middle of the pocket, and then to the right edge of the pocket. I'm sure you can do it, but what "aiming system" did you use? I think you HAVE to know these lines.

On a 4 1/4' pocket, that's pretty darn tough to do, no matter what aiming system or aiming method is being used.
Could you elaborate a little on why this is important in making shots and getting out?
The only big time player I ever knew who shot like this was Billy Johnson, but that was back in the days of the 4 1/2 inch and 4 3/4 inch pockets too. "They" tell me CJ Wiley can do that, but I've never seen him in live action...just on videos
Does your coach drill 'em in like that on these 4 1/4 inch pockets that we get stuck with at so many pool rooms nowadays?
Thank you.
:thumbup:

Neil · Sep 7, 2017

denwhit said:
I'm sure any professional pool player can do the same stuff if he isn't reliant on an aiming system that only can hit the middle of the pocket . He is a stop shot/ tangent player and everything the CB does is related to that instinct. Watch the tangent line change as the OB changes from 1 (thickest) all the way to 5 (thinnest) to the pocket. 5 different lines. Doing that, proves the point of the whole post.

Actually, it does just the opposite of proving your point. You are going by instinct to guess the correct spots on the ob. Whereas with an aiming system, such as CTE that gives you center pocket, it is very easy to then adjust to another part of the pocket if so desired.

Much better to adjust off a known spot than to just use instinct and guess. You are under the wrong assumption that just because an aiming system gives you center pocket, that that then is all that one can shoot at.

BC21 · Sep 8, 2017

denwhit said:
If the pool player has not had someone like the teaching pro that I use, I guess there is nothing they can do to see it. There are many, many CB paths off of the OB's that the stop shot/ tangent player can do that the spin players can't do. I've seen it so many times. By stop shot/ tangent players, I mean they can take a shot of 15-30 degrees (or so) and make the CB go anywhere on the table by using center top to center bottom cue tip on the CB and SPEED. To do this, they need to determine 1-5 position of the OB into the hole pockets. Nothing else to know. What a beautiful way to play, IMO!
I would like to see someone that is working on "an aiming" system to put the OB in the center of the table and with a 15-30 degree angle (something conducive) of the CB from a diamond away and make the OB into the left angled part of the pocket, maybe slightly hitting the rail, middle of the pocket, and then to the right edge of the pocket. I'm sure you can do it, but what "aiming system" did you use? I think you HAVE to know these lines.

When I find the time, I'll record this exact setup. I'll shoot it by feel/instinct first. Then I'll use fractional aiming for a comparison. I'm smart enough to not try this sort of unnecessary fine-tuning in match play. But I'll do it for experimental purposes. I say it's unnecessary because the 1 or 2 degree change in departure angle for the CB can easily be achieved with speed adjustments without taking a chance on missing due to trying to play perfect position. When the money's on the line, you focus on making the shot and getting on the right side of the next shot.

I love playing perfectionists, because perfection is a rare occurrence. If you can find one cut shot from center table as you described, where you think the only good option for position is to cheat the pocket one way or another, I'll prove it isn't necessary.

Bobkitty · Sep 8, 2017

BC21 said:
When I find the time, I'll record this exact setup. I'll shoot it by feel/instinct first. Then I'll use fractional aiming for a comparison. I'm smart enough to not try this sort of unnecessary fine-tuning in match play. But I'll do it for experimental purposes. I say it's unnecessary because the 1 or 2 degree change in departure angle for the CB can easily be achieved with speed adjustments without taking a chance on missing due to trying to play perfect position. When the money's on the line, you focus on making the shot and getting on the right side of the next shot.

I love playing perfectionists, because perfection is a rare occurrence. If you can find one cut shot from center table as you described, where you think the only good option for position is to cheat the pocket one way or another, I'll prove it isn't necessary.

I just used the simple straight into the side pocket as an illustration. He does this all over the table. He can perform shot after shot where cutting the ball correctly IS the right choice. On cuts, driving the OB into the rail and into the pocket (a 1) and then cutting it all the way over to a 5, makes a huge amount of difference in the CB line. I thought that was obvious. I give up here and if you're happy with your aiming system, go with it. I was just commenting on how he has taken guys that have spent years learning one "aiming system" and they can't do his drills. I was hoping someone would go out and see him to learn it themselves. So, instead of working their butt off for years. This man is an absolute pool genius and I'm hoping someone else might find it out for themselves. That is the only reason I've commented at all. I've paid for and studied a "DVD" and was hoping for the "book" coming out but he has saved me a lot of time knowing my aiming system is okay. Thought it might occur for someone else.

BC21 · Sep 8, 2017

denwhit said:
I just used the simple straight into the side pocket as an illustration. He does this all over the table. He can perform shots after shots where cutting the ball correctly IS the right choice. On cuts, driving the OB into the rail and into the pocket (a 1) and then cutting it all the way over to a 5, makes a huge amount of difference in the CB line. I thought that was obvious. I give up here and if you're happy with your aiming system, go with it. I was just commenting on how he has taken guys that have spent years learning one "aiming system" and they can't do his drills. I was hoping someone would go out and see him to learn it themselves. So, instead of working their butt off for years come learn it. This man is an absolute pool genius and I'm hoping someone else might find it out for themselves. That is the only reason I've commented at all. I've studied a "DVD" and was hoping for the "book" coming out but he has saved me a lot of time knowing my aiming system is okay. Thought it might occur for someone else.

With straight-in side pocket shots it is common to pocket the ball left or right of center to move the cue up or down table as needed. That comes up often. But a ball in the center of the table with a targeted corner pocket....that's a no-brainer, no pocket-cheating shot, especially on tight tables.

Anyway, I enjoy your posts. I wish your guy lived closer to me....I'd like the lesson, and a chance to pick his brain.:thumbup:

Bobkitty · Sep 8, 2017

....deleted...

JB Cases · Sep 29, 2017

A pro opinion
https://youtu.be/kbKmpmsT3bw

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"Aiming Systems" are Junk, DO the Work!

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