Secrets!

catpool9 · Aug 18, 2011

JoeyA said:
I had a conversation with someone recently who mentioned that the professional pool players will tell you many things that will help your game but that there are some "secrets" that you will never pry from their minds.

This is obviously true and it has been my personal experience as well. I once asked Ralf Souquet what his technique was for maintaining composure and he said he would only reveal that only after his days of competition are over. I can understand that and I'm sure many of you can as well.

There are other things (secrets) that top players know that some of us don't know but I suspect that some secrets are idiosyncratic and may not be as valuable to others as they are for the person who thinks it is "the secret" to their success.

I think we all learn particular things which help our game but that they are relative to us as individuals. Sure, those unique things that we do to help us pocket balls might help others but not always. I haven't tested my theory out on any of the professional players but I would almost bet that they do unusual things to help them pocket balls but may be too embarassed to tell others how they perceive or execute the shots because it isn't in the books. We all know that if it isn't in the books, then it can't be right.

I think the biggest "Secret" to beating your opponent is being able to get them out of their natural Rhythm, and you do this in subtle ways, not by blatant sharking, but by just being You, the way you walk, talk, lookinto ones eyes, it can be unnerving to some people if your good at it, and when a player gets off their game , they start making mistakes, and you capitalize , and in return you will play an excellent game of pool yourself.

There are many secret's to playing good pool & winning, but being able to take someone out of their own element of their "feel good range" has got tobe at the top of the list!

David Harcrow

Kickin' Chicken · Aug 18, 2011

pt109 said:
Sean...you pressed the right buttons.....
To get me to play 'call-shot' 10-ball, you'd have to hold a gun to my head.
...And if you wanted to make it 'with the shoot again' option.....
I'd say "Pull the trigger!"

regards
pt..<..looking for a 'steak' horse

Maybe a horse steak? :deadhorse: :smile:

Best,
Brian kc

Kickin' Chicken · Aug 18, 2011

Regarding razor thin cuts, Thorsten Hohman told me that best success is achieved when striking the cue ball, top center (yes, JoeyA).

His rationale is that there is much less of a target for your tip to strike, and this translates to less chance for error.

As for striking whitey low center, you are more likely to lose your level cue which can compromise accuracy.

Best,
Brian kc

ShootingArts · Aug 18, 2011

one more thing

Kickin' Chicken said:
Regarding razor thin cuts, Thorsten Hohman told me that best success is achieved when striking the cue ball, top center (yes, JoeyA).

His rationale is that there is much less of a target for your tip to strike, and this translates to less chance for error.

As for striking whitey low center, you are more likely to lose your level cue which can compromise accuracy.

Best,
Brian kc

Often on those long thin shots we are letting the cue ball fly and have to add a touch of side to keep it going straight up and down the table and staying out of trouble. That little bit of side has a lot less effect on the cue ball's path to the object ball with a high hit than low. Aside from anything else for absolute best accuracy I'm a fan of getting the cue ball rolling as soon as possible instead of sliding, my first reason for a high hit.

i need somethin · Aug 18, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q4jEPmHFa8

the best secret on the market for playing consistently

JoeyA · Aug 18, 2011

ShootingArts said:
Often on those long thin shots we are letting the cue ball fly and have to add a touch of side to keep it going straight up and down the table and staying out of trouble. That little bit of side has a lot less effect on the cue ball's path to the object ball with a high hit than low. Aside from anything else for absolute best accuracy I'm a fan of getting the cue ball rolling as soon as possible instead of sliding, my first reason for a high hit.

First Jay and now you. What the hell is going on? I know the heat index is up there. My son and I were crazy to go over to your part of the world at Nick's shooting range at 2:00 pm this evening and have a go with a new toy and a couple of old ones. A touch of side to keep it going up and down the table???

No side, hit high, medium fast speed; cut clean, cue ball go up and down the table like machine.

jay helfert · Aug 18, 2011

catpool9 said:
I think the biggest "Secret" to beating your opponent is being able to get them out of their natural Rhythm, and you do this in subtle ways, not by blatant sharking, but by just being You, the way you walk, talk, lookinto ones eyes, it can be unnerving to some people if your good at it, and when a player gets off their game , they start making mistakes, and you capitalize , and in return you will play an excellent game of pool yourself.

There are many secret's to playing good pool & winning, but being able to take someone out of their own element of their "feel good range" has got tobe at the top of the list!

David Harcrow

This is strong, the best I've read yet. One of the MANY answers to the OP. Yes, the top players today know how to do this and often do to their lesser opponents. Happens all the time in tournaments David! And it goes on off the table too, in the banter between players before and in-between matches. Everyone is hanging around in the same areas and the younger and less experienced players are trying to get accepted by the older guys. And the only way for that to happen is for the young guns to kick some ass on the table. That's the only real entree in the pool world to the upper echelons. And I have to tell you, this natural competition is just as pure in the pool world as it is in golf or tennis. Sure the money's different, but that's not all that matters if you're a real pool player. It's all about showing what you got and if you can bring it when the pressure is on. Somes can and somes can't!

Bingo David! You hit pay dirt on this one. :thumbup2:

jay helfert · Aug 18, 2011

Somebody touched on it earlier when they said the secret was "Don't Aim." They attributed this important piece of information to the esteemed Hal Mix, one of the greatest pool coaches of all time! He took a pretty good player in Nick Varner and made him into a world beater! Nick had trouble winning tournaments before he met Hal. When he somehow got Hal to mentor him, he became a champion, winning multiple tournaments year after year. And Nick was winning during the prime of Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Steve Mizerak, Efren Reyes, Jose Parica and Earl Strickland. So how good did he play?

I'd like to enlarge on what Mr. Mix had to say. At the highest level of pool, there is no more aiming! It all becomes instinctive, where our brain goes into auto-pilot, and makes instantaneous calculations on how to hit each shot. I'm rolling now, so pay attention. This is a little preview of what you're going to get in my next book. Pool becomes a game of Touch and Feel! It's no longer about "one tip left" or a "half a tip high." There is no "high" or "Low", no "Left" or "Right." What there is now, is an instant brain-calculated estimate of exactly how to hit the shot. Where and how to strike the cue ball, where you want to hit the object ball and at the exact right speed to make the shot and cause the cue ball to go where you need it for the next shot. You can't measure this point of aim in degrees left or right, high or low. It is a more precise equation then that. It's an infinite calculation, the most accurate one you'll ever make. Pool becomes wholly an "instinctive" act, where the thought processes are more free flowing. There are no obstacles to how our brain is operating at moments like this. That's when we're operating at full throttle! In pool we call this moment of nirvana, "being in dead stroke." That's as good a name as any, but it doesn't do justice to what is happening with our mind and body. A pool player in dead stroke is using his faculties at their maximum efficiency. This is about as good as it gets in life! And that's why they play pool. It ain't just about the money! HONEY!! :blush:

irock · Aug 18, 2011

Thanks JoeyA, for starting this thread, you got some talented players putting out a few little nuggets there. I am going out to the table and try the thin cuts, low and high, to see the difference. I use to use the break for the eight ball in the side pocket all the time, but never tried to split them, I really want to give this a try. I think all of us who have played a long time, have been in the zone, when it feels like you are shooting golf balls at water buckets. In the zone is great, but for me, out of the zone sucks, unfortunately for me that is most of the time lol.

ShootingArts · Aug 18, 2011

I could have been clearer

JoeyA said:
First Jay and now you. What the hell is going on? I know the heat index is up there. My son and I were crazy to go over to your part of the world at Nick's shooting range at 2:00 pm this evening and have a go with a new toy and a couple of old ones. A touch of side to keep it going up and down the table???

No side, hit high, medium fast speed; cut clean, cue ball go up and down the table like machine.

Joey,

I could have been a little bit clearer, actually did go mow some grass upcountry today and was a bit furry minded. I'm talking about straightening out the cue ball's path when it hits the first rail after contacting the object ball to avoid scratching or unwanted contact with other balls. Seems like a lot of those superthin table length shots are natural scratches after going another nine or eighteen feet. I often use a touch of side to keep the cue ball moving parallel to the long rail when it would be angling to one side or the other hunting trouble. Of course it is a lot nicer to not have to use any side at all. If the side is a must I'd lot rather use high and side than low and side. Just side would work but as mentioned when the cue ball has a long ways to go I believe it rolls truer than it slides so I like to get it rolling.

If I was going to do the mad dogs and englishmen thing I'd have a lot rather been at Nick's than mowing the field. Got to pick up a few tons of grass in the next day or two and I barely made a dent in the grass needing to be cut today.

Hu

JoeW · Aug 18, 2011

jay helfert said:
At the highest level of pool, there is no more aiming! It all becomes instinctive, where our brain goes into auto-pilot, and makes instantaneous calculations on how to hit each shot.

If there is a secret to playing pool I think that this is it. Unfortunately, knowing that this is where you need to be does not get you there. If someone could come up with a way to teach another person how to do this they could make a great deal of money.

I hear those who say you have to hit a million balls but I would bet there are people who have hit a million balls who cannot do what Jay is talking about.

I also think that this is not about natural talent (though talent certainly helps). It is about learning how to let go and let your brain do what is needed. A very difficult task. Interestingly it does not appear to be some thing that is restricted to any one personality type or set of individual characteristics. It does seem to be a skill that is in some way learned perhaps over several different sports.

JoeyA · Aug 18, 2011

JoeyA's FRICTION SECRETS!

irock said:
Thanks JoeyA, for starting this thread, you got some talented players putting out a few little nuggets there. I am going out to the table and try the thin cuts, low and high, to see the difference. I use to use the break for the eight ball in the side pocket all the time, but never tried to split them, I really want to give this a try. I think all of us who have played a long time, have been in the zone, when it feels like you are shooting golf balls at water buckets. In the zone is great, but for me, out of the zone sucks, unfortunately for me that is most of the time lol.

Irock,
I'll go to a little more trouble since you seem interested. Look at the diagram below and set up this fairly easy shot. Follow the instructions outlined in the text. I have not seen this information in any book, or any video and perhaps it is only idiosyncratic to me. Then again, perhaps it is a universal truth for all. If it works for you or others as I have diagrammed, then it may be something of value to all. If it is only idiosyncratic to me, then perhaps it will open up a window to the perspectives of others, so that when you hear the next crazy suggestion by another player, you won't be too hesitant to listen carefully to see what you might glean from their information.

Keep in mind that these different paths are not much different and you have to have a very STRAIGHT stroke to be able to achieve the same cue ball path on each shot. It is my belief that the different paths are simply caused by less friction which is the result of more or less speed of the cue ball (based upon you shooting the shot with the same shot speed). Hitting the cue ball with low or draw will slow up the cue ball because of the back spin resulting in a slight increase in friction which cuts the object ball less. The opposite is true for "follow" (less friction & more speed of cue ball). All of these factors are slight but real at least for my perspective.

Good luck. Let me know how this works for you. Others are welcome to try JoeyA's exercise in cutting balls accurately and you can let me know how I am so full of it.

I have other exercises that demonstrate this phenomena but this is enough for now.

CueTable Help

JoeyA · Aug 18, 2011

ShootingArts said:
Joey,

I could have been a little bit clearer, actually did go mow some grass upcountry today and was a bit furry minded. I'm talking about straightening out the cue ball's path when it hits the first rail after contacting the object ball to avoid scratching or unwanted contact with other balls. Seems like a lot of those superthin table length shots are natural scratches after going another nine or eighteen feet. I often use a touch of side to keep the cue ball moving parallel to the long rail when it would be angling to one side or the other hunting trouble. Of course it is a lot nicer to not have to use any side at all. If the side is a must I'd lot rather use high and side than low and side. Just side would work but as mentioned when the cue ball has a long ways to go I believe it rolls truer than it slides so I like to get it rolling.

If I was going to do the mad dogs and englishmen thing I'd have a lot rather been at Nick's than mowing the field. Got to pick up a few tons of grass in the next day or two and I barely made a dent in the grass needing to be cut today.

Hu

Ahhhh, I see. Sure, that makes more sense. The heat must have been getting to me too.

Mikjary · Aug 18, 2011

jay helfert said:
Somebody touched on it earlier when they said the secret was "Don't Aim." They attributed this important piece of information to the esteemed Hal Mix, one of the greatest pool coaches of all time! He took a pretty good player in Nick Varner and made him into a world beater! Nick had trouble winning tournaments before he met Hal. When he somehow got Hal to mentor him, he became a champion, winning multiple tournaments year after year. And Nick was winning during the prime of Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Steve Mizerak, Efren Reyes, Jose Parica and Earl Strickland. So how good did he play?

I'd like to enlarge on what Mr. Mix had to say. At the highest level of pool, there is no more aiming! It all becomes instinctive, where our brain goes into auto-pilot, and makes instantaneous calculations on how to hit each shot. I'm rolling now, so pay attention. This is a little preview of what you're going to get in my next book. Pool becomes a game of Touch and Feel! It's no longer about "one tip left" or a "half a tip high." There is no "high" or "Low", no "Left" or "Right." What there is now, is an instant brain-calculated estimate of exactly how to hit the shot. Where to strike the cue ball, where and how you want it to hit the object ball and at the exact right speed to make the shot and cause the cue ball to go where you need it for the next shot. You can't measure this point of aim in degrees left or right, high or low. It is a more precise equation then that. It's an infinite calculation, the most accurate one you'll ever make. Pool becomes wholly an "instinctive" act, where the thought processes are more free flowing. There are no obstacles to how our brain is operating at moments like this. That's when we're operating at full throttle! In pool we call this moment of nirvana, "being in dead stroke." That's as good a name as any, but it doesn't do justice to what is happening with our mind and body. A pool player in dead stroke is using his faculties at their maximum efficiency. This is about as good as it gets in life! And that's why they play pool. It ain't just about the money! HONEY!! :blush:

Exactly. I never understood when players would say, "Use two tips of spin", or "Cue a half tip lower". I took it to mean more or less spin, not where you hit the cue ball. For sure, you hit the cue ball in different places, but I never aim my tip at an exact spot. I use my stroke to put the different degrees of spin on the cue ball. There is just more, or less stroke.

Best,
Mike

poolhalljnkie · Aug 18, 2011

lfigueroa said:
you just gave a half a dozen hardcore cters heart attacks.

Lou figueroa

cte??????????

jay helfert · Aug 18, 2011

Back to the cut shot we were talking about. I have an experiment for you. Put up the most extreme cut shot you can imagine, one that looks like it won't go. Then try hitting it firm with high English and firm with low English. See which way you can cut the ball the thinnest. Let me know what you discover.

pt109 · Aug 18, 2011

Kickin' Chicken said:
Maybe a horse steak? :deadhorse: :smile:

Best,
Brian kc

KC....you can have my share of the horse steaks.

but when it comes to 'call-shot' 10-ball....
..I am definitely a 'neigh' sayer

regards
pt..<..who seldom eats red meat...
..was gonna say 'rarely' but I know what you would do with that..

Kickin' Chicken · Aug 19, 2011

jay helfert said:
I'd like to enlarge on what Mr. Mix had to say. At the highest level of pool, there is no more aiming! It all becomes instinctive, where our brain goes into auto-pilot, and makes instantaneous calculations on how to hit each shot. I'm rolling now, so pay attention. This is a little preview of what you're going to get in my next book. Pool becomes a game of Touch and Feel! It's no longer about "one tip left" or a "half a tip high." There is no "high" or "Low", no "Left" or "Right." What there is now, is an instant brain-calculated estimate of exactly how to hit the shot. Where to strike the cue ball, where and how you want it to hit the object ball and at the exact right speed to make the shot and cause the cue ball to go where you need it for the next shot. You can't measure this point of aim in degrees left or right, high or low. It is a more precise equation then that. It's an infinite calculation, the most accurate one you'll ever make. Pool becomes wholly an "instinctive" act, where the thought processes are more free flowing. There are no obstacles to how our brain is operating at moments like this. That's when we're operating at full throttle! In pool we call this moment of nirvana, "being in dead stroke." That's as good a name as any, but it doesn't do justice to what is happening with our mind and body. A pool player in dead stroke is using his faculties at their maximum efficiency. This is about as good as it gets in life! And that's why they play pool. It ain't just about the money! HONEY!! :blush:

Nice, Jay! :thumbup:

Best,
Brian kc

JAM · Aug 19, 2011

I've been hearing about the infamous "feel shot" for years. I'd love to read the definition of one.

sfleinen · Aug 19, 2011

"Leveraging your subconscious (read: don't let your conscious get in the way!)"

jay helfert said:
Somebody touched on it earlier when they said the secret was "Don't Aim." They attributed this important piece of information to the esteemed Hal Mix, one of the greatest pool coaches of all time! He took a pretty good player in Nick Varner and made him into a world beater! Nick had trouble winning tournaments before he met Hal. When he somehow got Hal to mentor him, he became a champion, winning multiple tournaments year after year. And Nick was winning during the prime of Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Steve Mizerak, Efren Reyes, Jose Parica and Earl Strickland. So how good did he play?

I'd like to enlarge on what Mr. Mix had to say. At the highest level of pool, there is no more aiming! It all becomes instinctive, where our brain goes into auto-pilot, and makes instantaneous calculations on how to hit each shot. I'm rolling now, so pay attention. This is a little preview of what you're going to get in my next book. Pool becomes a game of Touch and Feel! It's no longer about "one tip left" or a "half a tip high." There is no "high" or "Low", no "Left" or "Right." What there is now, is an instant brain-calculated estimate of exactly how to hit the shot. Where to strike the cue ball, where and how you want it to hit the object ball and at the exact right speed to make the shot and cause the cue ball to go where you need it for the next shot. You can't measure this point of aim in degrees left or right, high or low. It is a more precise equation then that. It's an infinite calculation, the most accurate one you'll ever make. Pool becomes wholly an "instinctive" act, where the thought processes are more free flowing. There are no obstacles to how our brain is operating at moments like this. That's when we're operating at full throttle! In pool we call this moment of nirvana, "being in dead stroke." That's as good a name as any, but it doesn't do justice to what is happening with our mind and body. A pool player in dead stroke is using his faculties at their maximum efficiency. This is about as good as it gets in life! And that's why they play pool. It ain't just about the money! HONEY!! :blush:

Jay:

Excellent! I've believed in this "just letting go" approach for years. I firmly believe in tapping that massive storehouse of experiences and muscle memories we have, the subconscious mind. Back in January of this year, I wrote an article in the 14.1 forum precisely about this topic:

"Leveraging your subconscious (read: don't let your conscious get in the way!)"
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=216564

Thankfully, it appears to be an article that's gone over very well. I hope the readers here in the Main forum will enjoy it as well!

-Sean

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