Expensive old growth shafts

Flukes

New member
I bought 3 old growth shafts from Joe Barringer at $80 each. He claimed they were final turns. 2 were straight but one was significantly warped. I had trouble reaching him but finally sent him a video taken on the day I received them. He gave me a bunch of BS about 3 day return policy. Said the warp would come out if I turned it more. What does final turn mean anyway? I finally let him know I was done with him for good. It's a shame he doesn't stand behind what he ships because he really does have good stuff.

Even the straight shafts showed so much grain pattern on the surface that I regretted ever falling for the hype.
 

Attachments

  • 20180105_171826.jpg
    20180105_171826.jpg
    197.9 KB · Views: 1,564

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hopefully, the good ones turn out great.

In my experience, 1/3 ain't the worst rate for shafts. And it pisses me off too.
 

Flukes

New member
I'm new to posting but I hope the attached screenshot identifies what I fell for.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20180105-235746.jpg
    Screenshot_20180105-235746.jpg
    182.7 KB · Views: 1,143

JC

Coos Cues
Joe's stuff is generally pretty good quality. The trouble with it is that nothing is as good as his embellished descriptions. Then the goofy regular price/sale price stuff. Reality has no direction to head from there but down. Add in his unique charm and customer service what do you get?

Another satisfied customer.

Too bad he's not here to tell us how good these shafts were and that he doesn't give a shit about some guy who spent $200 because he sells all over the universe by the cargo ship load.

At this point anyone with any self respect would be a fool to deal with this guy regardless of how good or not his products are.

JC
 

CuesDirectly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very sad looking, I hope no unsuspecting AZBilliards member ends up with them, hopefully, you will use them yourself.

Top quality shaft wood should have minimum standards.

You should have talked to people in the awesome "Ask the Cuemaker" section of AZBilliards, they could have helped you and I am very sure you would not have made this mistake.

You got cheated and no one can help you at this point.
 
Last edited:

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
I'm not going to defend anybody here, but there are some things you should understand about cue making. We begin with raw materials, and with any raw material we only know what we can see. Once we begin working with it, successive cuts or simply time itself will reveal flaws that we were unaware of, rendering the material junk. Nobody buys 100 shafts expecting to build 100 cues. You buy 100 shafts hoping to build 70, realistically expecting to build 50. It's the nature of the beast and is a fact that EVERY cue maker using solid wood shafts has to contend with. Even production companies deal with it. We don't blame the supplier because wood went bad. Nature does what nature does regardless of what we want. We do, however, blame the supplier if the wood was already known to be bad before it was sold to us. That's where your situation is iffy. Did your supplier know it before sending it to you?

As for the grain pattern you're speaking of, if it's the minor waves you show in your pic, then I'd say it's pretty normal. The pic shows 7-8" of 30" blanks, and it's the joint end shown. I don't see any issues in the section you show, and cannot comment on what I can't see. IMO, if you start at the joint end and pick a grain line in the middle, visually follow it to the tip, if it didn't run off the side of the shaft then it's a great shaft. If you start at the tip end and follow it to the joint without it running off, it's a good shaft. A few waves or wrinkles, especially at the joint end, are trivial. Furthermore, the more grain lines a shaft has, the more exaggerated those waves & wrinkles look because you have more dark lines to outline the imperfection.

I'm not taking any sides. I'm only playing devil's advocate for the purpose of conversation. The stuff I mention is from my own perspective and I am neither supplier nor consumer, but manufacturer. The fact that you bought only 3 shafts & ordered them at finish size indicates that you are a consumer, not a manufacturer. My guess is that either you have limited ability/experience to tinker or else you had a mind to hire a cue maker to do the work on the shafts. Either way, you feel like you got robbed, but it's nothing more than an every day experience for every cue maker buying raw material. The only mistake you made was grossly over paying for a supplier to do the work a cue maker should have been doing, and expecting something that we builders know is unrealistic. Like I said, I'm not taking any sides, just pointing out a different perspective.
 

Flukes

New member
Yep, this was a learning experience. I still feel that paying an extra $50 for a .860, .525 pro taper shaft should get enough care from the supplier to ensure the shaft is straight before putting it in the box.

The grain complaint is just a nit that I didn't discuss with him. Your explanation makes total sense.

Hopefully writting about this experience will help other hobbyists like me navigate the market place.

Anyway... enough time spent on it.

Thanks all.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
I'm not going to defend anybody here, but there are some things you should understand about cue making. We begin with raw materials, and with any raw material we only know what we can see. Once we begin working with it, successive cuts or simply time itself will reveal flaws that we were unaware of, rendering the material junk. Nobody buys 100 shafts expecting to build 100 cues. You buy 100 shafts hoping to build 70, realistically expecting to build 50. It's the nature of the beast and is a fact that EVERY cue maker using solid wood shafts has to contend with. Even production companies deal with it. We don't blame the supplier because wood went bad. Nature does what nature does regardless of what we want. We do, however, blame the supplier if the wood was already known to be bad before it was sold to us. That's where your situation is iffy. Did your supplier know it before sending it to you?

As for the grain pattern you're speaking of, if it's the minor waves you show in your pic, then I'd say it's pretty normal. The pic shows 7-8" of 30" blanks, and it's the joint end shown. I don't see any issues in the section you show, and cannot comment on what I can't see. IMO, if you start at the joint end and pick a grain line in the middle, visually follow it to the tip, if it didn't run off the side of the shaft then it's a great shaft. If you start at the tip end and follow it to the joint without it running off, it's a good shaft. A few waves or wrinkles, especially at the joint end, are trivial. Furthermore, the more grain lines a shaft has, the more exaggerated those waves & wrinkles look because you have more dark lines to outline the imperfection.

I'm not taking any sides. I'm only playing devil's advocate for the purpose of conversation. The stuff I mention is from my own perspective and I am neither supplier nor consumer, but manufacturer. The fact that you bought only 3 shafts & ordered them at finish size indicates that you are a consumer, not a manufacturer. My guess is that either you have limited ability/experience to tinker or else you had a mind to hire a cue maker to do the work on the shafts. Either way, you feel like you got robbed, but it's nothing more than an every day experience for every cue maker buying raw material. The only mistake you made was grossly over paying for a supplier to do the work a cue maker should have been doing, and expecting something that we builders know is unrealistic. Like I said, I'm not taking any sides, just pointing out a different perspective.

It's 100% the suppliers fault for shipping a warped shaft, period, end of story.
Jason
 

CuesDirectly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's 100% the suppliers fault for shipping a warped shaft, period, end of story.
Jason


He didn't buy a Shaft, he bought a Shaft blank to be made into a Shaft.

It most likely is fine IF it's a very small warp, it still needs to be turned on a lathe to a final finish diameter, typical is .840". Did the OP realize that it needs more turning? I suspect not.

Don't get me wrong Jason, I already stated my opinion on the shafts not being of good quality and at the cost, wow, the guy got burned in my humble opinion.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
It's 100% the suppliers fault for shipping a warped shaft, period, end of story.
Jason

If it was warped when it was shipped. If it was fresh turned to size, then shipped within a day of being cut, then it could have been sent straight and moved after the fact. We dont know.
 

Russell Cues

Maverick Cue Builder
Silver Member
Ive had very good percentages with any of the shafts I've gotten from Joe. That being said, for comparison sake, I purchased several bowling alley shaft blanks once, wood that had been on an alley for 50 plus years? Of the 15 I bought, only one made it to a usable shaft. Its wood, its organic, I can dip it in Any wood stabilizer and if it wants to move it will. Ive also had expensive lakewood shafts warp like hell after the first small.pass. This is my 2 cents.
 

Quesports

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have seen many threads just like this one concerning Cue Components over the years. When I do I have always wondered if he isn't passive aggressive by nature. OR maybe it is the customers? Anyway there are always defenders / accusers and hardly ever anything else.. Carry ON!
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
I have seen many threads just like this one concerning Cue Components over the years. When I do I have always wondered if he isn't passive aggressive by nature. OR maybe it is the customers? Anyway there are always defenders / accusers and hardly ever anything else.. Carry ON!

I'm not defending him. If he did something sour, then there's no defense. I don't agree with how he handled the situation, and don't know any other supplier who would have handled it that way. However, the buyer was naive in his expectations by relating raw materials with finished products, which is unfair to the supplier. At the very worst, it was a failed communication between the two on what was being offered & what to expect. Beyond that it was a sour way to handle the situation after the fact, which is probably why the buyer came here to vent. He has every right to be upset.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think that as consumers, we have grown quite spoiled by advances in manufacturing and the advantages of modern distribution.

The crisp guy is likely right that out of 100 blanks, it is prob far to bet 50 are up to his standard. He didn't pull that math out of thin air, folks.

Barringer's customer service has had plenty of reviews. I doubt he averaged 50/100.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
If it was warped when it was shipped. If it was fresh turned to size, then shipped within a day of being cut, then it could have been sent straight and moved after the fact. We dont know.

Bottom line is, the guy got a warped "shaft" and he didn't order a warped shaft.
Jason
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Bottom line is, the guy got a warped "shaft" and he didn't order a warped shaft.
Jason

Yes, you have pointed that out. However, you're completely missing my point, while insistently attempting to argue as if I have a different opinion. Yes the guy ordered a shaft and expected it to be straight. Perhaps if he'd ordered it from a cue maker, it would have been. But he didn't. He ordered it from a raw material supply, yet expected it to be finished product quality. My point is that the buyer missed the point. When you buy from a raw material supply, it means you're supposed to be the one who turns that raw material into a finished, STRAIGHT, product. As I said, it's a matter of miscommunication and wrongful expectations. Both parties have to accept partial blame.
 
Top