How far can you throw your balls?

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
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I figured this deserved another thread rather than remaining a tangent topic in another. I claimed in another thread that when I tested the extremes of the fractional aims around half-ball (5/8, 1/2, 3/8) that, when considering various speeds and spins, each of the three aims has a large range of angles and therefore shouldn't be linked to its respective theoretical angles of 22, 30, and 39 degrees. I just tested this again, and I was wrong about the low and high angles I had previously come up with, but I was very close in my assessment of how large the range is.

So, I set up a hole reinforcement donut for the object ball 5 diamonds away from a corner pocket. I marked the cloth for a ghost ball resting point directly in line through center donut to perfect center of the pocket between the points. I also marked a short line on the cloth about 4 diamonds from the pocket and along the same line to the pocket. I used two cue balls, both the Aramith Tournament that came with my Tournament set and Aramith measle ball, and placed them within 1 foot of the object ball for the lower limit test and within 6 inches for the upper limit test. Other factors that may be worth considering are that my table is in a basement, humidity was high (82%), and I haven't cleaned the balls for about 3 weeks. They aren't dirty but they aren't super shiny. My cloth is Simonis 860HR. Pockets are a tight 4.25", so that should contribute to the accuracy of the test.

I can do tests for other fractions later, but this morning I focused on half ball only. For the lower limit of angle for the half-ball aim I had the cue ball about a foot away from the object ball, and I placed it so that the mark for the ghost ball was showing as thicker than half-ball aim. I started with the cue ball resting on a theoretical 5/8-ball aim of 22 degrees and tried to make the ball using a half-ball aim. It was simple. Just a hard stun shot and the ball went easily. I repeated it. This surprised me, because I recall the last time doing this that 22 degrees was about the lower limit for a half-ball stun.

So I reduced the angle further to a theoretical 1/4-ball (14.5 degree) setup. With repeated attempts I couldn't make the half-ball shot. So I set up a shot halfway between 1/4-ball and 5/8-ball. I could make it occasionally. I found that angle, about 18 degrees, to be the low extreme for me and my equipment on a half-ball shot. For the lower limit test, all spin was done along the vertical center line of the cue ball.

I then set up theoretical higher-than-halfball shots to find the upper extreme for a halfball aim. The cue ball was placed within 6 inches of the object ball to help control aim and spin. I struck the cue ball very softly with extreme outside english, and I found the theoretical 3/8-ball angle of 39 degrees to be about the highest I could accomplish for a half-ball shot to find the short line I drew on the cloth about a diamond away towards the pocket.

The results of this test suggest that a half-ball aim has a range of:
39-18=21 degrees. I believe the other two aims will show a similar result.

If you're willing I'd love for anyone to perform this test for yourself and report your results. Maybe conditions have a huge impact on this range.

Aim.jpg
 
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CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Today the humidistat shows 78% in the basement. I tested the other two aims with the balls before cleaning and polishing them. This is what I came up with:

5/8-ball range: 12-30 degrees
3/8-ball range: 25-45 degrees

I then cleaned and polished the balls, cleaned the cloth with the Simonis X1, and did the test again. I got the same results. Just in case my LD shaft was overflexing on the firm stuns and throwing things off, I grabbed a regular deflection cue with a conical taper, and I got the same results.

I'm looking forward to hearing from anyone who sets this up and tries it. Again, the lower extreme doesn't happen all the time, but a few degrees above that is easy to repeat with a firm stun and the balls close to one another.
 

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, my results show:

5/8-ball aim
theoretical: 22°
actual range: 12°-30°

1/2-ball aim
theoretical: 30°
actual range: 18°-39°

3/8-ball aim
theoretical: 39°
actual range: 25°-45°
 

Bob Jewett

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I think you need to better control your experiment. You have to control for swerve at low speeds and squirt at all speeds. One way is to have the cue ball within a few millimeters of the object ball. This reduces the effects of both squirt and swerve. You may get a double hit for outside english but the object ball will be gone already.

When trying stun shots, you should not shoot the cue ball at the object ball but rather set up a close combination using the cue ball as the middle ball and only a millimeter from the final object ball. If you set up yet another ball in the right place for a 3-ball-plus-cue-ball combo, you can control the cut angle very precisely.

Also, the surface condition of the balls is very important. Some ways of cleaning them and getting a really nice shine on them doubles how sticky they are.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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With clean pool balls, not very much. Certainly not every attempt.

randyg

Boy, I'm with you and would say the angles should be in the 5-10 degree range. My test would be set up so that the balls are shot in a straight line and the CB has to stay on the original line. Maximum throw should come with a perfect stop shot and max English. How far off the straight line can the OB be thrown in that test? I would think that would produce the max throw for pool balls.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Physics says that you don't always want max side spin for max throw.

Gosh, Isn't the spin on the CB doing the "throwing" action? If the answer to that is yes, it's the spin on the CB, it sure seems like more spin= more throw. I'll have to find Dr. Dave's research.
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
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billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html
Collision-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT) are just different names for throw,

Are we using both in the experiment?

1/2-ball aim
theoretical: 30°
actual range: 18°-39°

18" CIT?
39" SIT?

Inches or degrees?
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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Gosh, Isn't the spin on the CB doing the "throwing" action? If the answer to that is yes, it's the spin on the CB, it sure seems like more spin= more throw. I'll have to find Dr. Dave's research.

It seems to me that a slower speed and a spin would cause more object ball throw than a faster speed and spin. Then again, some things aren't always how they seem. Lol
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
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It seems to me that a slower speed and a spin would cause more object ball throw than a faster speed and spin. Then again, some things aren't always how they seem. Lol

Remembering which to use is the lesson.
 

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think you need to better control your experiment. You have to control for swerve at low speeds and squirt at all speeds. One way is to have the cue ball within a few millimeters of the object ball. This reduces the effects of both squirt and swerve. You may get a double hit for outside english but the object ball will be gone already.

When trying stun shots, you should not shoot the cue ball at the object ball but rather set up a close combination using the cue ball as the middle ball and only a millimeter from the final object ball. If you set up yet another ball in the right place for a 3-ball-plus-cue-ball combo, you can control the cut angle very precisely.

Also, the surface condition of the balls is very important. Some ways of cleaning them and getting a really nice shine on them doubles how sticky they are.

Thanks for weighing in, Bob. I used Aramith Billiard Ball Cleaner in a home-made bucket polisher, and I used a microfiber cloth to get all the cleaner off and hand polish them to a shine.

Although I'll try your above recommendations some time soon, I'd really like others to set things up for themselves and try this, because for the lower limit firm stun tests, I was too close to the object ball (one foot) for any significant deviation from the aim point. I was along the center vertical line, so unlikely of squirt as well. Even if I had some squirt, it doesn't explain that I could achieve an angle of 25° on a 3/8-ball aim. But I'll try what you suggest.

In the meantime, I appeal to you and others to please consider trying my setup detailed below.

1)Mark an object ball with a hole reinforcement donut about 6" away from a side rail and 5 diamonds away from a corner pocket.

2)Take a straight edge and mark the resting point of a ghost ball (with fabric marker or chalk) exactly 2.25" behind the object ball donut center and inline with the pocket.

3)If you don't have a protractor handy, just go straight to step 4. If you do have a protractor, using it off of that ghost-ball resting point and straight edge line, find and mark (using either fabric marker or half-donuts with the open half towards the ghost ball mark) 15°, 22°, 30°, 39°, 45°. Mark each of these angles about 1 foot away from the ghost ball mark.

4)Place object ball on object ball donut

5)If you didn't have a protractor to mark the angles, about a foot away from the object ball place your cue ball in a position so that the ghost-ball resting mark lines up perfectly with the edge of the object ball and center cue ball. If you did mark the angles using a protractor, place your cue ball on the 30° mark.

6)Now that the cueball has been placed, approach the shot from the thinner aim of 3/8-ball, which for a 13mm tip looks as though the inside edge of the cue tip is at the edge of the object ball. Without putting any side-spin on the cue ball hit hard center-ball or barely below center-ball stuns at that (1/8-ball thinner than half-ball) aim point. If your stroke and aim are true and you make the ball, you've essentially reduced the theoretical 3/8-ball shot angle of 39° down to an actual 30°. See how low you can go. Set up a 5/8-ball position and still shoot the 3/8-ball shot. If you can't make the ball, find the lowest angle you can that still allows you to occasionally make the ball. I got down to 25° under my humid conditions for that aim.

7) Now that you know how to set things up, you can test other aims.

For the upper extremes of spin, place the cue ball within 6" of the object ball at higher angles than the aim that you'll be using, and using outside english (or whatever english you come up with) and a very soft strike try to twist the object ball so that it at least begins to travel along a line towards the pocket.
 
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Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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It seems to me that a slower speed and a spin would cause more object ball throw than a faster speed and spin. Then again, some things aren't always how they seem. Lol

I'm pretty sure the most throw occurs with the exact stop shot on the OB, and I would have assumed more spin at that instant would equal more throw but Bob says not the case.
 

goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
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Throw is reduced with more speed. Spin is speed. Therefore throw is maximized with less spin.

randyg
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Throw is reduced with more speed. Spin is speed. Therefore throw is maximized with less spin.

randyg

Do you agree that the stop shot (with the right amount of spin) will produce maximum throw?
 

BC21

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Throw is reduced with more speed. Spin is speed. Therefore throw is maximized with less spin.

randyg

Exactly. More spin could also mean more speed with an off center hit on CB, which causes more squirt and makes it appear like the spin is throwing the OB more. In reality it's probably a slight over-cut or under-cut sending the OB that extra few degrees offline.
 

BC21

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Do you agree that the stop shot (with the right amount of spin) will produce maximum throw?

I'd say a stun shot produced max throw (collision-induced throw). If the balls are dirty or gritty, a little inside would increase the throw even more I believe.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
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There are many misconceptions about throw in this thread. I don't have time to address them individually at the moment, but all of the answers are included (with supporting resources) in items 16-37 in the numbered list beneath the videos and illustrations on the squirt/swerve/throw effects resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave
 

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are many misconceptions about throw in this thread. I don't have time to address them individually at the moment, but all of the answers are included (with supporting resources) in items 16-37 in the numbered list beneath the videos and illustrations on the squirt/swerve/throw effects resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave

Maybe I'm doing something wrong. I can't figure it out, but I believe in peer review, so if several others set up the same test that I did, and they can't achieve more than 5 degrees of throw, then I'd concede. However, could there be additional cling happening with high speeds and excess humidity causing more throw, and could Aramith Tourneys have a unique response under these conditions?
 
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