joint pin question

whammo57 said:

So..... let me recap.......... a man that has a large vocabulary shares his procedure for turning shafts that uses something of his own design to insure a straight and true piece.

The people here pick it apart and ridicule him because they have preconceived notions that it will not work. They state their opinions based on their suppositions and not any real experience with this method.


This is why I don't post on this forum very often...............


Kim

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Actually you contribute/post quite often Kim, and I will say, you don't use big words that don't make sense when combined with the topic. When you say you did this and then that...I know and believe that's what you did. You give advice based on what you have tried and been successful at. Rick goes out of his way to use the biggest words that he can, with no real clue about their actual meaning, to describe what he does. Sad part is he doesn't seem to realize it comes out a gibberish BS and usually doesn't make sense. He does this to make himself look like a super smart person, IMO. I am surprised that he hasn't thrown around his 4 page resume yet with all his accomplishments, etc. as he has on the other site many times, that so far no one can find even a mention of online when doing searches. Here he doesn't tend to do it so much, and I think it's because he knows he'll get called out on it right away as what has happened in this thread. It's one thing to say what you have tried and found to work for you, but to make s#$t up just to impress is not right.
If someone is broadcasting incorrect info in this section, they should be held accountable for it. I seriously doubt Rick follows the exact method he has described (in which he used contradicting words multiple times in that description) and have had the results he has stated. He may make a great hitting cue, Don't know... no real feedback to look at, but even if he does, no need to BS his methods.
I have tried using a threaded fitting to cut shafts, without inserts, and with them, and ended up with more scrap shafts then I needed. What the other's are stating is truth, if that shaft moves at anytime after the insert or threading is done, that shaft will not be true....and will never come back to the original form. If one does a drawing in Cad and plot it under all the different conditions of a shaft moving between cuts, the centerline from the threaded joint or insert will no longer be on the centerline of the rest of that shaft. It's not opinion, it's fact, backed by science.
I'm Done with this 5-6 page joint issue thread....sad part is the OP got his answer in the first page and the rest was spent dealing with Rick's understanding / misunderstanding of the real world....
Dave

JoeyInCali said:

Actually, I've tried it .
I have two brass radial pins I parted and drilled a hole on the side of the barrel and center hole.
It presented two immediate problems .
First, the dead center spur could not grab the brass screw. The barrel is only .372.
Second, the threads become really tight sometimes when humidity goes up.
I do not use inserts on radial screws.


I have shafts from my late mentor that have inserts with .305 bored hole .
He used a .305" driver for it . No need for a spur. After really examining it and thinking it over , it was a waste of time . Not all shafts made it to the final cut.

And I did not make fun of his method. I think.

Click to expand...

joesph, why do you have to use a spur?
dead center>shaft>live center:wink:

like crispy says, wtf happened to just drilling (boring) a hole and tapping?

whammo57 said:

So..... let me recap.......... a man that has a large vocabulary shares his procedure for turning shafts that uses something of his own design to insure a straight and true piece.

The people here pick it apart and ridicule him because they have preconceived notions that it will not work. They state their opinions based on their suppositions and not any real experience with this method.


This is why I don't post on this forum very often...............


Kim

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This is why most of the experienced and decorated cue makers do not post here. They have years and years of experience from trial and error, from a time BEFORE the internet, only to have a "cue maker" with a few years of part time building arguing over a method proven to fail over time. It is frustrating, to say the least because the next great cue maker could be reading this and be set back months due to misinformation.

Boy, the OP really got some bang for his buck with this thread. One sentence question with 6 pages of perfectly useful information!

Possible explanation of

scdiveteam said:

Royce,

I don't measure the entire length each time and I never would assume to get .0002 down the length of a wooden shaft. My pin concentricity is between .0002 and zero indicated.

The 60 degree center is put on the concentric pin driver after I adjust and indicate it to zero in the chuck.

I hold the shaft at about .910 in the buck chuck and rear chuck and put a precision face on the joint and then drill and tap to a very tight fit where I must use a chuck in my hand holding the device and holding the shaft in the other hand to crank it out. This is done after finishing and before final tweaking of the stepped minor. The threads have already been stepped drilled a little but not to a final cue fit. To remove the device I hold a small chuck in my hand so I can get more purchase than just holding a cue dia. This allows me to unscrew the device after the shaft is sprayed, wet sanded and buffed.

The precision face that was put on at About .910 never gets faced again because the device guarantees the 90 degree face angle to the centerline of the threads and x axis of the of the shaft.

The shaft taper is cut on this x axis on the very tight threaded insert pin interface. The tapered contour of the shaft is concentric to the device and the threaded shaft insert from .900 to .850. I never test roll my shafts as the device does not come out until after finishing. The roll is always true on the table and there is never an elevation change at the joint when rolled on the rail.

I have been using this method since 2004 and over the years have refined the process. In 2010 I shared this method with the forum and since that time have made a few changes. The post below speaks of facing after the fact and fixed tail stock spring loading. I now have and adjustable tail stock with the spring loading also and can dial in the exact and smallest pressure between centers everytime. Along with my gravity feed follow rest I am creating shafts at a level of quality that I could never have imagined in 2010.

Here is a thread detailing my method that has been improved since 2010 but will outline the procedure as such:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=199595


Rick

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This thread is driving me crazy because I want to continue believing Rick is a genius type person that is having difficulty communicating with us. Woke up this morning for a 1:00AM pee and couldn't get back to sleep. Hate that! Switched the computer on, poured a cup of coffee, and revisited this thread for three hours. Something finally dawned on me which may clear up the confusion surrounding Rick's method. I am not a machinist and just want to throw this out there for the experts to troubleshoot.

I think we all agree that if Rick installs a pin in the joint end of a shaft (at roughly .910), and the pin protrudes roughly 1/2 inch and has a 60* recess on its end, that if he thereafter turns the shaft between centers, if there is any movement of the shaft after turning, the pin will no longer be concentric with the shaft's axis, because the shaft's axis is curved. This could simply be demonstrated by chucking up on the pin protruding from the joint end of the shaft while leaving the tip end unconstrained, and revolving the chuck. The tip end would swing a circle around the tailstock center, the diameter of which would be somehow proportional to the shaft's movement.

This is simple enough to understand, and I cannot believe that Rick can't grasp this. So I keep looking for missing information, like several of the experts did prior to giving up. I was right on the verge of throwing in the towel also, when suddenly the words in red, in the above quote, hit me. I'm not sure but this might be the source of our confusion: I think Rick doesn't simply chuck up on the protruding pin and turn again. He first inserts the shaft thru the headstock with the pin protruding from the main chuck. He then indicates the pin to zero (not sure if he indicates the end of the pin, the middle or its surface nearest the joint). After the chuck is adjusted in this manner, he removes the shaft and chucks up on the pin. Then, when the chuck is revolved, instead of the ferrule end swinging a circle, it remains nearly stationary at the tailstock center, and the chucked up pin swings a tiny circle, which eventually disappears after successive turnings using this method.

I don't have the experience to envision whether this would work, but some of you experts will be able to wrap your heads around this. Is this the "missing" step we've been looking for? (I hope so)

shankster8 said:

This thread is driving me crazy because I want to continue believing Rick is a genius type person that is having difficulty communicating with us. Woke up this morning for a 1:00AM pee and couldn't get back to sleep. Hate that! Switched the computer on, poured a cup of coffee, and revisited this thread for three hours. Something finally dawned on me which may clear up the confusion surrounding Rick's method. I am not a machinist and just want to throw this out there for the experts to troubleshoot.

I think we all agree that if Rick installs a pin in the joint end of a shaft (at roughly .910), and the pin protrudes roughly 1/2 inch and has a 60* recess on its end, that if he thereafter turns the shaft between centers, if there is any movement of the shaft after turning, the pin will no longer be concentric with the shaft's axis, because the shaft's axis is curved. This could simply be demonstrated by chucking up on the pin protruding from the joint end of the shaft while leaving the tip end unconstrained, and revolving the chuck. The tip end would swing a circle around the tailstock center, the diameter of which would be somehow proportional to the shaft's movement.

This is simple enough to understand, and I cannot believe that Rick can't grasp this. So I keep looking for missing information, like several of the experts did prior to giving up. I was right on the verge of throwing in the towel also, when suddenly the words in red, in the above quote, hit me. I'm not sure but this might be the source of our confusion: I think Rick doesn't simply chuck up on the protruding pin and turn again. He first inserts the shaft thru the headstock with the pin protruding from the main chuck. He then indicates the pin to zero (not sure if he indicates the end of the pin, the middle or its surface nearest the joint). After the chuck is adjusted in this manner, he removes the shaft and chucks up on the pin. Then, when the chuck is revolved, instead of the ferrule end swinging a circle, it remains nearly stationary at the tailstock center, and the chucked up pin swings a tiny circle, which eventually disappears after successive turnings using this method.

I don't have the experience to envision whether this would work, but some of you experts will be able to wrap your heads around this. Is this the "missing" step we've been looking for? (I hope so)

Click to expand...

delete> misunderstood

I've seen that video before. Are you saying that if Rick indicated the pin as I described above, that method would, after successive turnings, produce a perfect shaft?

shankster8 said:

I've seen that video before. Are you saying that if Rick indicated the pin as I described above, that method would, after successive turnings, produce a perfect shaft?

Click to expand...

delete misunderstood

shankster8 said:

This thread is driving me crazy because I want to continue believing Rick is a genius type person that is having difficulty communicating with us. Woke up this morning for a 1:00AM pee and couldn't get back to sleep. Hate that! Switched the computer on, poured a cup of coffee, and revisited this thread for three hours. Something finally dawned on me which may clear up the confusion surrounding Rick's method. I am not a machinist and just want to throw this out there for the experts to troubleshoot.

I think we all agree that if Rick installs a pin in the joint end of a shaft (at roughly .910), and the pin protrudes roughly 1/2 inch and has a 60* recess on its end, that if he thereafter turns the shaft between centers, if there is any movement of the shaft after turning, the pin will no longer be concentric with the shaft's axis, because the shaft's axis is curved. This could simply be demonstrated by chucking up on the pin protruding from the joint end of the shaft while leaving the tip end unconstrained, and revolving the chuck. The tip end would swing a circle around the tailstock center, the diameter of which would be somehow proportional to the shaft's movement.

This is simple enough to understand, and I cannot believe that Rick can't grasp this. So I keep looking for missing information, like several of the experts did prior to giving up. I was right on the verge of throwing in the towel also, when suddenly the words in red, in the above quote, hit me. I'm not sure but this might be the source of our confusion: I think Rick doesn't simply chuck up on the protruding pin and turn again. He first inserts the shaft thru the headstock with the pin protruding from the main chuck. He then indicates the pin to zero (not sure if he indicates the end of the pin, the middle or its surface nearest the joint). After the chuck is adjusted in this manner, he removes the shaft and chucks up on the pin. Then, when the chuck is revolved, instead of the ferrule end swinging a circle, it remains nearly stationary at the tailstock center, and the chucked up pin swings a tiny circle, which eventually disappears after successive turnings using this method.

I don't have the experience to envision whether this would work, but some of you experts will be able to wrap your heads around this. Is this the "missing" step we've been looking for? (I hope so)

Click to expand...

I believe that he has already stated that after the shaft reaches .910" he doesn't cut between centers, he mounts the pin in his chuck to cut the remaining tapers. If so, and there is any movement in the shaft. An unsupported tip end will do you just as you were describing and rotate in a circle. If he then bends that tip end over and restrains it with the live center to perform the remaining tapers, then he has cut the shaft while it is bent or bowed. It will simply return once the restraint is released.

If what I have understood from his ramblings is wrong, and he does turn from centers, then the pin will not be on the same center line if there is any movement in the shaft between turnings. It's simply not possible.

Early on I too wanted to believe that we just had a communication issue. However, I don't feel that way any longer. I just don't see any reason to purposefully walk around and skip over very simple but pertinent questions other than to avoid the inevitable realization that something is wrong in the logic.

I usually stay away from these threads as they pretty much always end in a train wreck. But I've had questions about this very process since it was first mentioned a couple of years ago. Other than the convoluted method of creating a tight fit for his special pin, this is journey that most all of us who learned through logic applied to trial and error have already taken. Nothing here is new, and there's a reason it's not a common practice among most cue makers.

I hope everyone has a great weekend.


Royce

What I really can't grasp is, THE ADVANTAGE of doing all that at .910" or yay so.
What is the advantage ???

The biggest disadvantage is if you already tap that insert, you are now committed to that thread. Unless you like re-drilling that hole and doing another insert.

JoeyInCali said:

What I really can't grasp is, THE ADVANTAGE of doing all that at .910" or yay so.
What is the advantage ???

The biggest disadvantage is if you already tap that insert, you are now committed to that thread. Unless you like re-drilling that hole and doing another insert.

Click to expand...

I can chuck hard on the cue with no collet. Makes it easy to power tap without spinning the cue within a collet. The jaw marks get cut out way before final on the saw machine. 6 .010 passes to .850.

scdiveteam said:

I can chuck hard on the cue with no collet. The jaw marks get cut out way before final on the saw machine. 6 .010 passes to .850.

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That's not an advantage to me at all Rick.
I leave no marks when doing the insert when the shaft is at it's final sanding size.
Spot drill 1/4, live bore. Not much stress at all.

With your dual chuck set-up, it shouldn't stress them much at all if you did that at final size.

scdiveteam said:

So when you come here and join the mob making blanket statements about me or my product without any merrit, you are attracting my business. So since you drew first blood Rat, the above text and truthfull testimony in what you get in retuurn.

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Interesting... My response was in general and not directed OR even in response to one of your posts. I've always maintained the school of thought that "if it works FOR YOU, then go with it." I may not agree with your methods but have always been respectful of them. I may also advise against them, due to my experience, but then again, never said it isn't working for you.

For you to come out and put me on blast is laughable. I do this full time. I build cues and repair simultaneously so your full time/part time is invalid. You only see my spec cues in the catalog and think you have me pegged? I build my share of custom cues in the same price range as you but I do not need to post them as part of a marketing ploy. I do need need a flood of words to push my business. My work, in the hands of thousands of players, does all the talking/typing I need. (yes, thousands)

My repairs are top notch and you can try all you want to discredit me. Your opinion does not matter. You don't even have a Radial tap so you are right, you're not in my league...

Rick

The funny thing is this.

I started in this thread by asking a few simple questions. I was not judgmental nor derogatory. I was actually inquisitive. I had my doubts, but wanted to know more. I was, and still am, completely open to a civil and logical discussion about your methods.

Those simple questions still remain unanswered.

Based on your evasiveness, I have provided my logic and experiences in order to explain why I asked the questions in the first place. I guess I figured you might not understand what I was looking for. Still, no answers.

Now, since I have gone through all this of asking questions about a topic that you brought to the forums to share, and reaching out to you with some reasoning behind the questions, you have labeled me as a hater. Well, good for you.

Sorry that I have somehow offended you. May actions were always based on growing and sharing knowledge, regardless of how you see them.

As I said earlier, I hope everyone has a good weekend. And yes Rick, that does include you.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

scdiveteam said:

So to those who openly dumb down the forum and state " I ship shafts with taper roll all the time" as if it is something to be expected when someone buys a new cue. To those who have openly agreed to that notion in a thread recently aired here, I say they are hurting others who are learning as this is dumbing down to a lower standard.

I am of the philosophy to raise the bar of expectation not dumb it down.

Click to expand...

Maybe someone needs to come through and be an editor for you. When you use the correct technical terms, words, and verbiage to describe what you're doing your posts should become shorter. Not longer.

You seem to be ignoring certain questions being asked about your method. The biggest problem with your method that I see is huge. If you're doing the final taper passes turning with the pin installed, if there is any shaft movement and you're still getting a straight shaft out. Your tapers are going to vary slightly along with a slight chance to cancel out the round and turn it to an oval.

You have listed zero examples as to why your method is truly better. But there are several reasons why your method is flawed. It has been explained plenty of times before, but if chuck up your shaft on the pin. When you slide the live center into place, if it doesn't meet up with your existing center hole. There's no other way to say it. Your center line of the shaft is not in line with your hole. And if you're able to get the live center in place each time without having to bend the shaft, then you're a god with wood. I doubt that and everyone else will too. I highly suspect that the hole you are thinking you are boring out is not turning out the exact way you think.

You have been asked to show a a cross view of your joint. You ignored these requests in all your responses. How hard is it to take a few pieces of scrap, install a pin and such. Then bandsaw them in half? Must be hard if you refuse to do so. Must mean there is a flaw you are aware of and don't want people to find out about.

You want to raise the bar of philosophy on cue construction? Maybe you got knocked over the head a few too many times. You can raise the engineering, but leave the philosophy to the guys who are capable of that type of thought. You aren't one of them Rick.

ratcues said:

Interesting... My response was in general and not directed OR even in response to one of your posts. I've always maintained the school of thought that "if it works FOR YOU, then go with it." I may not agree with your methods but have always been respectful of them. I may also advise against them, due to my experience, but then again, never said it isn't working for you.

For you to come out and put me on blast is laughable. I do this full time. I build cues and repair simultaneously so your full time/part time is invalid. You only see my spec cues in the catalog and think you have me pegged? I build my share of custom cues in the same price range as you but I do not need to post them as part of a marketing ploy. I do need need a flood of words to push my business. My work, in the hands of thousands of players, does all the talking/typing I need. (yes, thousands)

My repairs are top notch and you can try all you want to discredit me. Your opinion does not matter. You don't even have a Radial tap so you are right, you're not in my league...

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Ryan,

Top notch? Unfortunately Rat, you are not allowed to be the one to judge that.

You spinning a shaft within a collet, ruining the finish and then shipping it back in that condition is disgusting. You could not have missed that because the finish was completely wipe off the wood. And then you shipped it that way.

You are either completely inept, lazy, or just don't give a damn.

I will go out on a limb and eliminate the inept part. So are you lazy or just give a damn?

People who are top notch deliver top notch each and every time because they know you are judged each and every time you ship a job. And yes, when top notch people make a mistake they take care of business and fix it or replace it with an apology.

Your ego is so inflated that reality in obscured.

If you seek contrition I would be happy to give you Brad's number so you can apologize.

The first step Rat is to admit there is a problem. You can call me a liar and say I am making up a story and play the victim but them you would be digging a deeper hole.

It is always up to others to judge our work. My judgement of yours is obsevstional based on your ability to ruin someone's finish when doing a simple tap job and shipping that way. What would it have taken for you to fix it even if you just super glued, wet sanded and buffer.

Anyone who is top notch could do a repair over maple and make it look right in short order. There is no defense.

So you can back track and say what you want about you post and it not being aimed at and say it was a general statement or whatever you have since described. Have fun with that notion.

I only have 3/8 10, 11, 11.5 and 14 in my shop as i only do flat face repairs. Why because I am a part time cue repair guy busy build cues full time. All other referrals goes to KJ. I did have a unilock radial but it was lost when I moved my shop.

JMO,

Rick

I need some clarification..... someone here stated that the shaft would have a threads that were not on center or at an angle to the center line of the shaft..

I believe Rick stated that he cuts a pin in half and faces and center drills the cut end. He installs an insert in the joint end of the shaft and drills and taps it but not full depth. This is so the center drilled pin half will screw in but will be tight. The tip end of the shaft is also center drilled.

If he turns the shaft using the centers on each end ... isn't that turning on centers?.... I think someone here stated it was not.

If you turn that shaft to final size.... isn't everything concentric about the 2 centers on each end...........

thanks


Kim

whammo57 said:

I need some clarification..... someone here stated that the shaft would have a threads that were not on center or at an angle to the center line of the shaft..

I believe Rick stated that he cuts a pin in half and faces and center drills the cut end. He installs an insert in the joint end of the shaft and drills and taps it but not full depth. This is so the center drilled pin half will screw in but will be tight. The tip end of the shaft is also center drilled.

If he turns the shaft using the centers on each end ... isn't that turning on centers?.... I think someone here stated it was not.

If you turn that shaft to final size.... isn't everything concentric about the 2 centers on each end...........

thanks


Kim

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Kim, that's right but the pin is cut on the barrel, faced and centered. The business end of the thread is completely embedded in the shaft. The only thing different that it is very tight so there is zero slop in the thread make up more so that a cue make up tightness. The second stepping of the minor is done after finishing when I adjust the tightness so two hands make the face on the butt very firmly when the facing takes place.

Rick

scdiveteam said:

Ryan,

Top notch? Unfortunately Rat, you are not allowed to be the one to judge that.

You spinning a shaft within a collet, ruining the finish and then shipping it back in that condition is disgusting. You could not have missed that because the finish was completely wipe off the wood. And then you shipped it that mistake they take care of business and fix it or replace it with an apology.

JMO,

Rick

Click to expand...

Show me where I called you a liar. Understand this: I am not the only one doing repairs in this shop. I can guarantee that IF I spun and shaft, it would be repaired or replaced. I am, by default, the spokesman for this shop on AZ so if the shaft was shipped from here in the condition you say, I take responsibility. I am an adult and a professional. But, since the person never brought it to our attention, there isn't much I can do. Also, if I were in your shoes, I would have contacted Muellers to alert us to the situation. Since none of this was done and you only bring it up because you are butt hurt, I have my doubts.

Try all you want to deflect attention from the hole you dug and direct it to me. People see through it. I tried to help you over the years here and at JA but you can't let things go. Why justify your procedures? Just build cues...

whammo57 said:

I need some clarification..... someone here stated that the shaft would have a threads that were not on center or at an angle to the center line of the shaft..
If he turns the shaft using the centers on each end ... isn't that turning on centers?.... I think someone here stated it was not.
If you turn that shaft to final size.... isn't everything concentric about the 2 centers on each end...........
thanks, Kim

Click to expand...

Kim, I think this is what people are having difficulty understanding.

When the pin is originally installed on a straight shaft that was just faced, the pin is 90° to the face and perfectly in line with the axis of the shaft.
However, if the shaft warps (exaggerated), the pin is still 90° to the face but it is no longer perfectly in line with the axis of the shaft.

When the warp is machined away, the pin's center will be concentric to the shaft, however, the pin & tapped hole will be off-angle to the centerline of the shaft.

As far as I can see, the only way to reconcile this is to use a shaft blank that remains perfectly straight. I'm still looking for one.