can someone explain why you would get more spin with a low deflection shaft??

B

bbb

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in another thread
billiardsabout said this
"Some players have trouble with the low deflection shafts as they get more spin on the ball than they plan to. It's worth softening a bit and getting used to the "better" low deflection shafts IMHO."
i always thought spin was caused by tip placement
i dont understand why the type of shaft would matter
your help needed
thanks
 
Ratta

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
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english

Don t want to sound glibberish,

but it s really a misinformation. It s just about your stroke, and angle, speed and the amount of spin. lettin the material of the tip aside- let s imagine you use the same tip here with the same shape etc.

you will also find some ppl who would tell, that it s vice versa-- even then i would say. that this is not really right :)

angle, speed and spin is what counts :)
 
BilliardsAbout

BilliardsAbout

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When the Predator shafts first came into the game, a lot of players were getting more draw and topspin than before with the same hit, tip placement and stroke speed. Your experiences may be different.
 
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FranCrimi

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BilliardsAbout said:
When the Predator shafts first came into the game, a lot of players were getting more draw and topspin than before with the same hit, tip placement and stroke speed. Your experiences may be different.
Click to expand...

When I switched to a Predator shaft, I found that I was getting less and had to adjust.

For what it's worth, I understand the physics guys saying this was nonsense, but as someone who directly experienced a change, I'm telling you all that it's not nonsense. What I don't know, is the reason why it was different. I think it has to do with what shaft you're switching from and whether or not you're a spin player to begin with. I'm a spin player and was used to playing on the edge of the cue ball.
 
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H

Hardmix

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I have been playing a bit with my maple shaft cues recently, again toying with the idea of switching which I have shelved. That said, I noticed no difference in the spin between the maple and LD shafts.

Hardmix
 
Bob Jewett

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bbb said:
in another thread
billiardsabout said this
"Some players have trouble with the low deflection shafts as they get more spin on the ball than they plan to. It's worth softening a bit and getting used to the "better" low deflection shafts IMHO."
i always thought spin was caused by tip placement
i dont understand why the type of shaft would matter
your help needed
thanks
Click to expand...
The spin/speed ratio of a particular shot is determined by how far off-center you hit the cue ball. This basic result is pretty solid in both theory and testing.

There are several things that I can think of that could cause one cue to seem to get more spin than another for the same hit. Some of them are:

A different shaft diameter -- this will cause the effective contact point distance off-center to be slightly different relative to the bridge position and that will change the spin/speed ratio. A different tip radius may change this slightly as well.

A more/less efficient tip/shaft combination. By "efficient" I mean how much of the energy is transferred into the cue ball. A common example is using a very hard tip for breaking -- harder tips waste less energy in the collision and get more speed on the break. This doesn't change the spin/speed ratio but it does change both of them relative to another cue. A "dead" tip may seem to get less spin because it is dissipating more energy and reducing both speed and spin.

A different balance. This can change your timing and where you contact the cue ball.

Here's some info Dr. Dave has gathered on the subject: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#spin
 
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BilliardsAbout

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Thanks for your input, everyone.

I noticed a similar effect when Meucci red dot et al came out years ago. It seemed to effect the bangers more than the soft/feel players. I don't think the difference will show at a high playing level.

Anyone who has hit a graphite cue with a tip precisely like one on a maple shaft has experienced this more/less efficient tip/shaft combination effect.
 
F

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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Bob Jewett said:
The spin/speed ratio of a particular shot is determined by how far off-center you hit the cue ball. This basic result is pretty solid in both theory and testing.

There are several things that I can think of that could cause one cue to seem to get more spin than another for the same hit. Some of them are:

A different shaft diameter -- this will cause the effective contact point distance off-center to be slightly different relative to the bridge position and that will change the spin/speed ratio. A different tip radius may change this slightly as well.

A more/less efficient tip/shaft combination. By "efficient" I mean how much of the energy is transferred into the cue ball. A common example is using a very hard tip for breaking -- harder tips waste less energy in the collision and get more speed on the break. This doesn't change the spin/speed ratio but it does change both of them relative to another cue. A "dead" tip may seem to get less spin because it is dissipating more energy and reducing both speed and spin.

A different balance. This can change your timing and where you contact the cue ball.

Here's some info Dr. Dave has gathered on the subject: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#spin
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob. This explains a lot. Predator shafts are lighter which shifts the balance farther back on the cue. I noticed that right away. The shaft diameter and taper is slightly different than my maple shaft and the Predator tip was slightly softer.
 
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Scott Lee

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Larry...The short answer is...you don't. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

bbb said:
in another thread
billiardsabout said this
"Some players have trouble with the low deflection shafts as they get more spin on the ball than they plan to. It's worth softening a bit and getting used to the "better" low deflection shafts IMHO."
i always thought spin was caused by tip placement
i dont understand why the type of shaft would matter
your help needed
thanks
Click to expand...
 
BilliardsAbout

BilliardsAbout

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Scott,

Do you have a comment re: "A more/less efficient tip/shaft combination. By "efficient" I mean how much of the energy is transferred into the cue ball. A common example is using a very hard tip for breaking -- harder tips waste less energy in the collision and get more speed on the break. This doesn't change the spin/speed ratio but it does change both of them relative to another cue. A "dead" tip may seem to get less spin because it is dissipating more energy and reducing both speed and spin."
 
J

Jdm34

jared marion
Silver Member
I am not sure why but there is a difference I went from a Z2 to a OB 11.75 and when I tried to draw I got less with the OB but after a week or so I was getting more than with the Z2 I think its feel weight whatever there is an adjustment needed both had the same tip also. that was a while ago today my stroke is better than it was and it seems easier to try a different shaft and get the same spin.
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

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To all the people experiencing different amounts of spin with different shafts, do a chalk test with a Rempe or similar training ball.

Then, report back.

Without that chalk mark, you really don't have a leg to stand on.
 
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B

bbb

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iusedtoberich said:
To all the people experiencing different amounts of spin with different shafts, do a chalk test with a Rempe or similar training ball.

Then, report back.

Without that chalk mark, you really don't have a leg to stand on.
Click to expand...

excellent post
sent you a greenie
 
BilliardsAbout

BilliardsAbout

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I'm saying this because I'm (or try to be) a logical person:

If I switch between 13 mm shafts session to session, like two shafts made for the same cue with the same precise taper but different deflection, do you really think I hit every draw and topspin shot or sidespin shot far from where I did the previous 10,000 strokes?

Dr. Dave has researched and Bob Jewett has commented upon the efficacy of different tip/shaft combinations. The physics makes sense without the necessity for chalk marks or a pool robot.
 
BC21

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Hmmmm. Thinking like this.....The longer your tip can remain on the CB throughout the stroke, though measured in milliseconds, the more spin you'll get. A shaft that deflects more than average, due to the weight of of the CB pushing back, will be forced off of the stroke line quicker than a shaft with less deflection. This means less contact time between the CB and the tip. It may only be a few milliseconds but might just make a difference, forcing the player to shoot a touch softer or firmer to get the same action with two different shafts.
 
Bob Jewett

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BC21 said:
Hmmmm. Thinking like this.....The longer your tip can remain on the CB throughout the stroke, though measured in milliseconds, the more spin you'll get. ... .
Click to expand...

This is not the case according to theory and experiment. Soft tips can have twice the contact time as hard tips but do not get noticeably more spin. The amount of spin relative to speed of the cue ball is determined by how far off center you hit.

In fact, a longer contact time is expected to reduce the maximum amount of spin you can get on the ball. See Dr. Dave's site for details.
 
dr_dave

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Bob Jewett said:
This is not the case according to theory and experiment. Soft tips can have twice the contact time as hard tips but do not get noticeably more spin. The amount of spin relative to speed of the cue ball is determined by how far off center you hit.

In fact, a longer contact time is expected to reduce the maximum amount of spin you can get on the ball. See Dr. Dave's site for details.
Click to expand...
For those interested, here are some pertinent resources:

cue tip contact time

cue tip hardness effects

getting more spin with an LD shaft

maximum spin

Enjoy,
Dave
 
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