Backing up the cue ball, reverse

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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How is it explained how one player can easily back up the cue ball vast distance from vast distances and another struggles with it. I start running into trouble at the 4 diamond apart distance on a 9' table. My very best stroke will only bring it back where I started; about 4 diamonds. I'm sure it has something to do with getting lower on the cue ball but I'm worried about launching it through the window. :smile: How can strokes be so different? Get low on the cue ball and follow through, right? How can that action be so different between players? Just don't get it. Watch this Russian in "the Billiard Brothers" on Youtube in the Ultra Draw drill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfE6z5nvbWs&list=PLm-NYu03DbMtqs8myB8MYKgRx0iJgQlB4&index=2. Talk about a great stroke! He's not stroking that hard either.
Has anyone ever invented a mechanical stroker with the perfect stroke? Something like Iron Byron in the golf testing world.
 
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Bob Jewett

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]How is it explained how one player can easily back up the cue ball vast distance from vast distances and another struggles with it. I start running into trouble at the 4 diamond apart distance on a 9' table. My very best stroke will only bring it back where I started; about 4 diamonds. I'm sure it has something to do with getting lower on the cue ball but I'm worried about launching it through the window. :smile:
Has anyone ever invented a mechanical stroker with the perfect stroke? Something like Iron Byron in the golf testing world.
In fact there have been several versions of billiard shooting machines. The first was Bob Meucci's "Myth Destroyer" which was developed at a time when most of the top players were unaware of squirt (cue ball deflection). It was made to measure and compare and demonstrate squirt. That was about 1997.

That was followed by at least two generations of Predator's "Iron Willie". There have been some others but none of "commercial" grade that I know of.

Here is some general advice about draw on Dr. Dave's site: http://billiards.colostate.edu/pool_secrets_gems.html#Draw

One other very important point: In my experience many players have trouble drawing the ball or even with any kind of spin because they have never learned to chalk properly. If you bore a hole into the chalk, which most beginners do, you are probably not chalking effectively. No pro player chalks like that. If you look at the chalk at the end of a pro tournament, it is not worn like the chalk in a pool hall. Here is what I would add to the 100 Tips linked above:

0. An even layer of chalk must cover your tip for each shot. Learn how to chalk effectively and most importantly, check your tip before shooting any spin shot.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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.[/QUOTE]One other very important point: In my experience many players have trouble drawing the ball or even with any kind of spin because they have never learned to chalk properly. If you bore a hole into the chalk, which most beginners do, you are probably not chalking effectively. No pro player chalks like that. If you look at the chalk at the end of a pro tournament, it is not worn like the chalk in a pool hall. Here is what I would add to the 100 Tips linked above:

0. An even layer of chalk must cover your tip for each shot. Learn how to chalk effectively and most importantly, check your tip before shooting any spin shot.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your input Bob. I do "scratch" on the chalk and I try to maintain a well rounded tip (nickel curve size). I will visit and study the site you posted.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
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Two of the forces affecting your draw shots in lay terms: rotational force and forward force.

A draw shot struck too hard has so much forward momentum that this momentum fights the rotational backspin.

Shoot at an object ball six inches away from the cue ball, straight on/full and VERY softly with a lot of bottom. It should draw back and STRAIGHT back. This is a shot that works better (as do many shots) with less physical effort.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Two of the forces affecting your draw shots in lay terms: rotational force and forward force.

A draw shot struck too hard has so much forward momentum that this momentum fights the rotational backspin.

Shoot at an object ball six inches away from the cue ball, straight on/full and VERY softly with a lot of bottom. It should draw back and STRAIGHT back. This is a shot that works better (as do many shots) with less physical effort.

Yes, agree. It's counter intuitive.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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[QUOTE
One other very important point: In my experience many players have trouble drawing the ball or even with any kind of spin because they have never learned to chalk properly. If you bore a hole into the chalk, which most beginners do, you are probably not chalking effectively. No pro player chalks like that. If you look at the chalk at the end of a pro tournament, it is not worn like the chalk in a pool hall. Here is what I would add to the 100 Tips linked above:

0. An even layer of chalk must cover your tip for each shot. Learn how to chalk effectively and most importantly, check your tip before shooting any spin shot.[/QUOTE]

Using the Rempe cue ball, how low can you leave a chalk mark? I think not getting low enough for draw or high enough for follow is my problem. I notice how some people can make their follow shots bend copious amounts when shooting hard.
 

Bob Jewett

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... Using the Rempe cue ball, how low can you leave a chalk mark? I think not getting low enough for draw or high enough for follow is my problem. I notice how some people can make their follow shots bend copious amounts when shooting hard.
Most stripes have a stripe half the height of the ball. If you turn the stripe so it is horizontal, you should be able to hit in the color and not miscue. That is, you should be able to hit near 25% (draw) and 75% (follow) of the height of the ball. A small detail: if the cue stick is elevated the stripe should be tilted a little to match.

I'm not sure where 25%/75% is on the Rempe ball.

As for the bend, if you want to see bend try waxing the cue ball. Try to do this with an old cue ball since you don't really want wax on the ball during play. The pros are usually playing on new, slippery cloth which gets the same effect.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Most stripes have a stripe half the height of the ball. If you turn the stripe so it is horizontal, you should be able to hit in the color and not miscue. That is, you should be able to hit near 25% (draw) and 75% (follow) of the height of the ball. A small detail: if the cue stick is elevated the stripe should be tilted a little to match.

I'm not sure where 25%/75% is on the Rempe ball.

As for the bend, if you want to see bend try waxing the cue ball. Try to do this with an old cue ball since you don't really want wax on the ball during play. The pros are usually playing on new, slippery cloth which gets the same effect.
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Okay, thanks for that.
 
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Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Found out today, working with my teacher that the cloth makes a huge difference!
 
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gregcantrall

Center Ball
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I saw a clip of Corey Deuel executing a power draw shot then demonstrating how he straightens his fingers on the back swing. I can not find that clip now.:angry:
I did however find this clip of him executing the same draw shot but without any commentary. Watch his right hand and you will see the opening of his rear fingers in the back stroke.

This helped me improve my puny draw stroke.:thumbup:
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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I saw a clip of Corey Deuel executing a power draw shot then demonstrating how he straightens his fingers on the back swing. I can not find that clip now.:angry:
I did however find this clip of him executing the same draw shot but without any commentary. Watch his right hand and you will see the opening of his rear fingers in the back stroke.

This helped me improve my puny draw stroke.:thumbup:

Yes, I've been advised to do that also. The typical closed grip hand just can not go back far enough.
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
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Yes, I've been advised to do that also. The typical closed grip hand just can not go back far enough.
I wish I could find that original clip. I was not paying attention to the commentary. He held up his hand with the back to the camera and straightened All of his fingers then did a stroking motion with his hand.

This led me to focus on holding the cue between my thumb and forefinger at a pivot point that is mid cue. Just had the front end done on my F-350 due to the death wobble. High speed wobbles is one of my problems with my right hand as well. Keeping that pivot point in line with the hinges in my elbow and wrist. This has helped give me a more stable stroke on all shots. The ability to draw back further with stable pivot point improved my draw stroke dramatically. Relaxing the stroke gives best result for me.:thumbup:
 
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troy.trudell

Registered
I have found the real key to a draw shot, or any shot really, is the slight pause at the apex of your backswing. I don't know if it is focus, or if that pause helps place your tip on the cue more precisely or what, try it it works. 80% of bangers have no idea where the tip contacts the ball.


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gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
I have found the real key to a draw shot, or any shot really, is the slight pause at the apex of your backswing. I don't know if it is focus, or if that pause helps place your tip on the cue more precisely or what, try it it works. 80% of bangers have no idea where the tip contacts the ball.


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That is critical for me also. Some will pause with the cue forward. I pause at the back. Since I look at the cue ball last the pause is to focus on the exact point I am hitting the cue ball. Then concentrate on the exact path of the cue tip through that spot.
 

troy.trudell

Registered
I've lurked on this site for quite awhile, I've never really felt I was "qualified" to post. This is a pretty easy thing, 100% of people that try a pause in the backstroke will get more cue reaction. The other tip, that works for me, make sure your right foot for right handers, or left foot for southpaws, is locked in place. It's like building a house, a firm foundation is essential. Try it guaranteed it will work.


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Gorramjayne

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Matt nailed it when he explained that trying too hard can start to ruin your draw. You have to trust your tip to do what it's going to do and that the ball will back up. Relax.

I'd characterize it more as a spin/speed ratio problem, which comes up against the maximum level of precision you can execute your stroke at. The important thing to remember about that is:

"You don't know what you don't know."

Plenty of people who are great with mid-range draw suddenly get just end up with dead and spinning CBs when they try to load up on power for long range draw shots. Sources of this problem are all in stroke execution.

Problem #1 you're pulling your cue off line when you try to over-power it. This is one of the most common mistakes and also very hard to self-diagnose because the crazy thing is you'll still pocket the ball just like you intended but not get the draw. Why? If you push your cue left just before contact the CB jumps off to the right but with unintended left spin. Even though you pushed the CB right by a tiny fraction and should miss with an unexpected tiny left cut, the left spin will throw the OB a few degrees right, still hitting the pocket. An instructor especially one who is video taping you can help you identify if this is the problem.

Also note that while it may sound counter-intuitive, it helps a lot to practice these shots on faster tables. Your goal in practicing on a fast table is not to make it easier to draw the ball but to see your mistakes more clearly. If you're routinely pulling your stroke and getting unwanted sidespin, the CB will more obviously slide to the side you're missing to before it draws back. Harder to detect on slow cloth.


Problem #2 comes from jarring the cue forward when you transition on your front stroke. Especially if you have a 'lively' cue and you are trying to violently accelerate, the tip WILL oscillate from the shock of the acceleration and a tip that has a slight buzzing movement at contact will not grip the ball as well, sacrificing spin. There's a reason snooker tapers draw well with some of the most violent cue acceleration, but in pool people are better served with a longer backswing and working on mechanics to get an even delivery that is not twitchy. Pro tapers can make the front end of the shaft vibrate as they are accelerated through a curve (nobody moves their cue in a perfect line back-to-front).

Problem #3 can come, depending on circumstances, from hitting too low. Just like hitting too hard, you can begin to hit too low, even below what you might have thought the miscue limit to be. Getting your tip too near the table can start to get you cuing low enough where you're now wasting a lot of power on spin and not acting enough on the center mass of the CB to launch the CB forward. Also you can start to lose grip (and thus spin) before you reach the miscue limit, although this gray area between the start of a miscue and 'maximum spin' on the CB is going to be different based on your tip, cue weight, and stroke characteristics. Also at the lowest extremes, any tiny mistakes with the tip striking slightly left or right of your aim point will again bleed power from both backspin and forward momentum.

Problem #4 AND problem #5. These happen together a lot. A problem when you go for more power than you're used to (even if you manage to keep the rest of the stroke in line) is that you're probably going to bridge longer than usual and frequently not get as close to the ball at address. It's hard to take your normal PSR, prepare for a big stroke, and still get your tip as close to whitey as you should have it on every shot. If you let your shoulder drop too early or jerk your shoulder into the shot you're probably going to get a lot of tip rise and hit much higher on the ball than you thought. It's just as bad if you still hit the right point on the ball but have any see-saw motion right at contact. The tip needs to drive straight into the ball for maximum grip, spin, energy transfer. If your tip is starting to wander up it's not purely striking into the ball at impact but is also moving up the surface of the CB. Absolute spin killer, and if you're moving on the shot, as we all know, all bets are off.



CURVE

Curve comes form using the things you usually want to avoid on a big draw to your advantage... either off-center hits or intentionally added sidespin. The shape of the curve is highly dependent on table conditions so don't worry if the CB isn't dancing as pretty as exhibition shots you see on newly-felted TV tables, as long as you can still force the delay of the curve to where you need it and end up where you want to. Of course any mld-angle cut with very high backspin starts to move off the natural angle and the bend backwards. Force-follows are a little harder to show that dramatic curve except at more narrow angles.

Perhaps counter-intuitively) you can make the CB slide out a bit longer before the curve of the follow catches by helping yourself with some inside spin. Even where you're dead-straight, you can aim your CB a fraction from a full-face hit and then add inside spin to still throw the ball on-target. Even when you have a little angle to work with, inside spin can help generate a little extra friction between the CB and OB so the CB sticks behind it a little bit longer, halting some of its natural momentum and encouraging it to slide off on the stun angle before the front-spin takes. All of the combinations you can go through to make a force-follow pause and curve the way you want it are crazy, but it's certainly worth experimenting with it once you have the confidence in your stroke .
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
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Quick fix from "Quick Draw"!

Line up for a center ball shot in your stance. Don't spread the fingers or the bridge to cue lower, instead, jack up the stroke hand. Cue way the heck down on that cue ball.

You now have two choices only--put a gentle grip/stroke/touch on the ball and draw it like a fiend or fugeddabouhdit. That'll learn 'ya!

PS. If you are used to using a very long bridge, shorten up some with your bridge hand closer to the cb.
 
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