Some thoughts about playing on fast cushions

Ruthless said:

It's a later than 1965 GC1 then. Mine has 5/16/1962 etched on the corner castings. It came with Monarch standard rails and all you need to do is look at the original Brunswick Owners and Service manuals that will tell you when the "SuperSpeed" rail were introduced.... easy to find info. But the Artemis Intercontinental No. 66 rails are a direct replacement for the Monarch rails on a Gold Crown without any modifications needed. Brunswick does not keep or have any records on when any GC table was made. I actually replaced the skirts on my table with skirts off of a GC 2 because I didn't like the fiberglass parts on the early GC1 tables... The only real way to identify GC 1 & 2 tables for sure is the score counters are much larger and flat to the table. But dating manufacture is impossible without the original receipt and shipping label.

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Same cushions on the 2 sets of Anniversary rails I have....before the GC'S were even built

Ruthless said:

It's a later than 1965 GC1 then. Mine has 5/16/1962 etched on the corner castings. It came with Monarch standard rails and all you need to do is look at the original Brunswick Owners and Service manuals that will tell you when the "SuperSpeed" rail were introduced.... easy to find info. But the Artemis Intercontinental No. 66 rails are a direct replacement for the Monarch rails on a Gold Crown without any modifications needed. Brunswick does not keep or have any records on when any GC table was made. I actually replaced the skirts on my table with skirts off of a GC 2 because I didn't like the fiberglass parts on the early GC1 tables... The only real way to identify GC 1 & 2 tables for sure is the score counters are much larger and flat to the table. But dating manufacture is impossible without the original receipt and shipping label.

Click to expand...

I hate to correct you, but every change that was on the GC2....came out on the GC1S first, and yes the 2's came with the plastic dust covers as well. The only.....now listen to me here, the ONLY difference between a GC1 & 2 is that when Brunswick no longer offered a painted finish, the Stained Rosewood painted finish was the only way a GC2 WAS offered, so that means....if it had a Rosewood stain painted finish....it was a GC2....EVERYTHING else was in fact....a GC1 with various changes that took place over the years between 61'-74'. The GC2 production years was 74'-76' only....and ALL came with the painted stained Rosewood finish look.

Ruthless said:

It's a later than 1965 GC1 then. Mine has 5/16/1962 etched on the corner castings. It came with Monarch standard rails and all you need to do is look at the original Brunswick Owners and Service manuals that will tell you when the "SuperSpeed" rail were introduced.... easy to find info. But the Artemis Intercontinental No. 66 rails are a direct replacement for the Monarch rails on a Gold Crown without any modifications needed. Brunswick does not keep or have any records on when any GC table was made. I actually replaced the skirts on my table with skirts off of a GC 2 because I didn't like the fiberglass parts on the early GC1 tables... The only real way to identify GC 1 & 2 tables for sure is the score counters are much larger and flat to the table. But dating manufacture is impossible without the original receipt and shipping label.

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GC1 and 2 score counters are the exact same, they didn't switch to the smaller score counters until the GC3 model came out....fact. The dates on your pocket castings, and leg levelers....we're mold production dates....to indicate which mold was used at the time to make the parts. As the molds changed, so did the etched in dates.

Allen Brown said:

We are actually in agreement about something. Imagine that....

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I've not read every word of this thread, but on this issue I'd like to offer up something for consideration.

If a certain amount of draw gets the ball down table & stops just short of the rail on a 7 ft. table...

then the same effort will be about two(2) diamonds short for the 9 ft. table.

Think proportionally.

The reverse would be true that if the ball stopped just short of the rail for the 9 ft. table then it would hit the rail for the 7 ft. table & bounce of maybe two(2) diamonds.

Tennis courts are the same size but have different playing surfaces with different characteristics like fast grass, slow clay, & different in the middle speeds hard courts.

IF the size is going to change then the speed of the cloth should be proportional...

BUT... The Game really does NOT have any REAL governing body & I do not see one coming anytime soon.

Best 2 All,
Rick

PS Now I will not even go into the different cue balls.

=ENGLISH!;5488490]I've not read every word of this thread, but on this issue I'd like to offer up something for consideration.

If a certain amount of draw gets the ball down table & stops just short of the rail on a 7 ft. table...

then the same effort will be about two(2) diamonds short for the 9 ft. table.

Think proportionally.

The reverse would be true that if the ball stopped just short of the rail for the 9 ft. table then it would hit the rail for the 7 ft. table & bounce of maybe two(2) diamonds.

Tennis courts are the same size but have different playing surfaces with different characteristics like fast grass, slow clay, & different in the middle speeds hard courts.

IF the size is going to change then the speed of the cloth should be proportional...

BUT... The Game really does NOT have any REAL governing body & I do not see one coming anytime soon.

Best 2 All,
Rick

PS Now I will not even go into the different cue balls.[/QUOTE]

Think about this for a minute. The difference in speed between a 7ft and a 9ft is not in the cloth, but it is in the cushions. If you set up a ramp in a corner pocket of a 9ft to roll the cue ball down it and with enough speed, banked the cue ball 3 rails around the table and into the other corner pocket....but adjusted the speed of the ramp meter to only have enough speed to get the cue ball into the jaws of the pocket and not pocket it. Then if you placed that ramp meter on a 7ft table, rolled out the cue ball the exact same as you did on the 9ft....instead of the cue ball stopping in the jaws of the corner pocket...it would roll right in and drop....is that because of the speed of the cloth....if both tables have the same cloth? No, it's because there's less distance between the banks on a 7ft, so there is less drag, which means the cue ball is rolling with the same energy it had on the 9ft....it's just running out of playing field....which gives the 7ft the appearance being faster than a 9ft. Now, if the cushions were slowed down to the point that the cue ball came to rest in the corner pocket rather than falling in with the same speed as the 9ft....then, both tables would play the same....and, the effort to move the cue ball around for position on shots...would be the same for either table.

no issues for me at all with any of this

I played money matches an entire summer on home made tables, another stretch on the biggest pos bar table you could imagine, another run on snooker tables from the 60s that were not maintained since birth

adjusting to equipment is crucial, I'd destroy guys two levels up from me on that aformentioned bar table if they were "rollers" as slow rolls would practically result in a godamn cue ball u turn, the table was THAT bad

adapt and adjust

for me personally any public equipment that is new and consistent is a small luxury

realkingcobra said:

I hate to correct you, but every change that was on the GC2....came out on the GC1S first, and yes the 2's came with the plastic dust covers as well. The only.....now listen to me here, the ONLY difference between a GC1 & 2 is that when Brunswick no longer offered a painted finish, the Stained Rosewood painted finish was the only way a GC2 WAS offered, so that means....if it had a Rosewood stain painted finish....it was a GC2....EVERYTHING else was in fact....a GC1 with various changes that took place over the years between 61'-74'. The GC2 production years was 74'-76' only....and ALL came with the painted stained Rosewood finish look.

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You are right about the changes. They were constantly changing the GC 1 from 1961 on and I have found a lot of tables that were made from parts of both. The GC 2 was only made for a few years and were just updated GC 1 tables. I have enough parts laying around my shop to put together a couple of them. They changed a lot more than you listed... the rail tops were made several different ways with different finishes. The very rare GC 1 was the tangerine colored skirted table. They also introduced the adjustable legs in the 60's before the GC 2 came out and started offering wood finish skirts years before the GC 2 came out.... The corner castings were changed after the first year of production and several more times over the years. The GC 1 & 2 tables went through minor changes every couple of years until the GC 3 came out. I have a collection of every years Brunswick catalog, owners and service manuals from 1961 - 1980.

realkingcobra said:

Think about this for a minute. The difference in speed between a 7ft and a 9ft is not in the cloth, but it is in the cushions. If you set up a ramp in a corner pocket of a 9ft to roll the cue ball down it and with enough speed, banked the cue ball 3 rails around the table and into the other corner pocket....but adjusted the speed of the ramp meter to only have enough speed to get the cue ball into the jaws of the pocket and not pocket it. Then if you placed that ramp meter on a 7ft table, rolled out the cue ball the exact same as you did on the 9ft....instead of the cue ball stopping in the jaws of the corner pocket...it would roll right in and drop....is that because of the speed of the cloth....if both tables have the same cloth? No, it's because there's less distance between the banks on a 7ft, so there is less drag, which means the cue ball is rolling with the same energy it had on the 9ft....it's just running out of playing field....which gives the 7ft the appearance being faster than a 9ft. Now, if the cushions were slowed down to the point that the cue ball came to rest in the corner pocket rather than falling in with the same speed as the 9ft....then, both tables would play the same....and, the effort to move the cue ball around for position on shots...would be the same for either table.

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I hear you, but that was not the premise to which I was referring.

It was a straight draw shot.

Now keep the rails the same for both tables & change the speed of the cloth to slower for the 7 foot table & you have 'equalized' shots for both straight shots like draw shots AND rail shots.

Or the better solution would be to do both proportionally, slower rails & slower cloth.

The ramp thing is called a Stimp Meter in golf. There is hole that the ball sits & will roll out of when the ramp is on a set incline. Hence it is always the same as gravity is what pulls it over the edge of the hole & the different lengths that the ball roles tells the speed on the greens, 11.5 ft is faster than 10 feet.

Ruthless said:

You are right about the changes. They were constantly changing the GC 1 from 1961 on and I have found a lot of tables that were made from parts of both. The GC 2 was only made for a few years and were just updated GC 1 tables. I have enough parts laying around my shop to put together a couple of them. They changed a lot more than you listed... the rail tops were made several different ways with different finishes. The very rare GC 1 was the tangerine colored skirted table. They also introduced the adjustable legs in the 60's before the GC 2 came out and started offering wood finish skirts years before the GC 2 came out.... The corner castings were changed after the first year of production and several more times over the years. The GC 1 & 2 tables went through minor changes every couple of years until the GC 3 came out. I have a collection of every years Brunswick catalog, owners and service manuals from 1961 - 1980.

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Look in those manuals at the GC1s, only available in 4 color schemes, no painted stained finish was offered on the GC's, until the GC2 came out, and it was not offered in a painted finish like the 1's were....only paint stained Rosewood, that's it.

realkingcobra said:

You do know the Monarch SuperSpeed cushions on the 1's were only 1 1/8" wide and the Artemis K55 is 1 1/4" wide, which changes the playing surface by a 1/4" all the way around right?

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Look at the bottom of your rails, no figure 8 nut plates....ok, now look at the extruded moulding on the rail blinds....they're the full length first edition GC1 blinds....but, they didn't come with those rails, that set of rails is pieced together.