Speed Pool - How do they aim?

BC21 · Oct 5, 2017

I have a good friend that's shoots faster than any player I've ever seen. I told him he'd be a great speed pool player. So yesterday, out of curiosity, I watched a few Guinness Speed Pool Championship matches on YouTube. It was my first time watching any entire speed pool match. When I was younger I'd often shoot fast and loose, running around the table firing in all the stripes or solids in bar room game of 8-ball. I'd do this strictly for the comical showoff aspect, something I'm not too proud of nowadays -- the showing off part.

Anyway, last night I decided to try a little speed pool like they do in the Guinness championship matches, racking 10 balls and shooting any order. I did 5 racks and my best time was about 78 seconds. That's not good enough to win any major events, but I've seen slower times from some experienced speed pool players, so it isn't too bad I guess. My aiming method was "Just see the shot and shoot."

I struggled with completely abandoning my PSR on some shots, and though I moved quickly from one shot to the next, I didn't run as many speed pool players do. But then again, they are playing on smaller tables, and much more forgiving also. Here's my best run:

https://youtu.be/tliAxxPb7Ws

YouTube "Guinness Speed Pool" and watch a rack or two. How are these players aiming? They may have used a certain aiming system to program their brain for shots, but it's obvious they are now playing by pure feel/instinct.

This isn't a knock on aiming systems because I fully support any system that gets more people playing and enjoying pool. It's just an example of how the brain can eventually be programmed to run on auto-mode without having to rely on any full-time aiming system.

SpiderWebComm · Oct 5, 2017

BC21 said:
YouTube "Guinness Speed Pool" and watch a rack or two. How are these players aiming? They may have used a certain aiming system to program their brain for shots, but it's obvious they are now playing by pure feel/instinct.

I don't think speed pool is playing by 100% feel and instinct. Although they're moving around, setting up, and shooting rapidly, they're skilled to to see and process the angle, an aim point on the OB and an estimate of impact on the CB. That's where HAMB comes into play for SEE, PROCESS, SHOOT.
Like this guy with a gun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7HN7THecwg

I think a pure demonstration of feel/instinct is a wing shot test or contest. Then you have to instinctively feel the timing and part of the OB to hit while it's in motion.

This isn't a knock on aiming systems because I fully support any system that gets more people playing and enjoying pool. It's just an example of how the brain can eventually be programmed to run on auto-mode without having to rely on any full-time aiming system.

That's true. But what gives you a higher percentage rate of success, carefully aiming or firing quickly? Even the best speed pool players don't have a potting % of the pros who aim in competition.

I think the number of practice strokes you take before each shot depending on the cut angle and distance from the pocket gives you away. Even a 2 or 3 practice stroke move is giving you time to aim and process. In the beginning of the rack it was far more practice strokes. Run around the table the next time as opposed to lolly gagging and fire with NO practice strokes in 1 second or less.

stan shuffett · Oct 5, 2017

BC21 said:
I have a good friend that's shoots faster than any player I've ever seen. I told him he'd be a great speed pool player. So yesterday, out of curiosity, I watched a few Guinness Speed Pool Championship matches on YouTube. It was my first time watching any entire speed pool match. When I was younger I'd often shoot fast and loose, running around the table firing in all the stripes or solids in bar room game of 8-ball. I'd do this strictly for the comical showoff aspect, something I'm not too proud of nowadays -- the showing off part.

Anyway, last night I decided to try a little speed pool like they do in the Guinness championship matches, racking 10 balls and shooting any order. I did 5 racks and my best time was about 78 seconds. That's not good enough to win any major events, but I've seen slower times from some experienced speed pool players, so it isn't too bad I guess. My aiming method was "Just see the shot and shoot."

I struggled with completely abandoning my PSR on some shots, and though I moved quickly from one shot to the next, I didn't run as many speed pool players do. But then again, they are playing on smaller tables, and much more forgiving also. Here's my best run:

https://youtu.be/tliAxxPb7Ws

YouTube "Guinness Speed Pool" and watch a rack or two. How are these players aiming? They may have used a certain aiming system to program their brain for shots, but it's obvious they are now playing by pure feel/instinct.

This isn't a knock on aiming systems because I fully support any system that gets more people playing and enjoying pool. It's just an example of how the brain can eventually be programmed to run on auto-mode without having to rely on any full-time aiming system.

I don't think that speed pool would negatively effect CTE. Once programmed with CTE, one's visual intelligence for implementing CTE is faster than the fastest super computers in the world. I suspect that the aspect of physically following the eyes would be the toughest aspect of training for speed pool. CTE is see and align.

Stan Shuffett

lfigueroa · Oct 5, 2017

BC21 said:
I have a good friend that's shoots faster than any player I've ever seen. I told him he'd be a great speed pool player. So yesterday, out of curiosity, I watched a few Guinness Speed Pool Championship matches on YouTube. It was my first time watching any entire speed pool match. When I was younger I'd often shoot fast and loose, running around the table firing in all the stripes or solids in bar room game of 8-ball. I'd do this strictly for the comical showoff aspect, something I'm not too proud of nowadays -- the showing off part.

Anyway, last night I decided to try a little speed pool like they do in the Guinness championship matches, racking 10 balls and shooting any order. I did 5 racks and my best time was about 78 seconds. That's not good enough to win any major events, but I've seen slower times from some experienced speed pool players, so it isn't too bad I guess. My aiming method was "Just see the shot and shoot."

I struggled with completely abandoning my PSR on some shots, and though I moved quickly from one shot to the next, I didn't run as many speed pool players do. But then again, they are playing on smaller tables, and much more forgiving also. Here's my best run:

https://youtu.be/tliAxxPb7Ws

YouTube "Guinness Speed Pool" and watch a rack or two. How are these players aiming? They may have used a certain aiming system to program their brain for shots, but it's obvious they are now playing by pure feel/instinct.

This isn't a knock on aiming systems because I fully support any system that gets more people playing and enjoying pool. It's just an example of how the brain can eventually be programmed to run on auto-mode without having to rely on any full-time aiming system.

I think most speed pool guys are just doing the old see and shoot.

One famous speed demon advocated pretty much the same system Mosconi taught in his books: extending a line from the pocket through the OB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Cn92-IqKU

He addresses aiming at 1:25.

Willie here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItPxJuAoimE

Lou Figueroa
not so hard

stan shuffett · Oct 5, 2017

I just did a 10 ball rack and break on my 10 footer. Aiming is absolutely no issue. I did the break plus clear the table in 100 seconds calling out the visuals and pivot directions. I can definitely better that time. The issues are way more physical than visual. 1 stroking and then there is cue ball control and running around the table.
Interesting challenging, though. CTE did not hamper my efforts visually in any way. CTE helped rather than hurt.. Would not do it any other way.

Stan Shuffett

BC21 · Oct 5, 2017

SpiderWebComm said:
That's true. But what gives you a higher percentage rate of success, carefully aiming or firing quickly? Even the best speed pool players don't have a potting % of the pros who aim in competition.

I think the number of practice strokes you take before each shot depending on the cut angle and distance from the pocket gives you away. Even a 2 or 3 practice stroke move is giving you time to aim and process. In the beginning of the rack it was far more practice strokes. Run around the table the next time as opposed to lolly gagging and fire with NO practice strokes in 1 second or less.

Yes...being my first attempt at this genre I couldn't quite let go of my practice strokes. It was fun though. You have very short time intervals to decide what you're going to do next and where the CB should be to do it. If you miss position you must immediately be prepared with a backup plan.

And this isn't a competition among unknown players that only play speed pool. Many speed pool players are well known professional pool players.

I agree it's hamb, this style we often call feel or instinct. If I had I to call out where I was aiming on each shot, I couldn't have done it because I didn't pay attention to anything except the view of the balls and where the CB should be next. No fractional thoughts, no visual lines of any kind. Just 100% automatic. The practice strokes were out of habit, not necessity.

I almost got it in 55 seconds but rattled the last ball.
This clip was cut from the beginning of the footage, before I started trying to 1-stroke everything.

It's fun, a good exercise for quick thinking.

BC21 · Oct 5, 2017

lfigueroa said:
I think most speed pool guys are just doing the old see and shoot.

One famous speed demon advocated pretty much the same system Mosconi taught in his books: extending a line from the pocket through the OB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Cn92-IqKU

He addresses aiming at 1:25.

Willie here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItPxJuAoimE

Lou Figueroa
not so hard

I agree. See and shoot. Automatic. Getting to that skill level is the time-consuming part, and most players never achieve it.

BC21 · Oct 5, 2017

stan shuffett said:
I don't think that speed pool would negatively effect CTE. Once programmed with CTE, one's visual intelligence for implementing CTE is faster than the fastest super computers in the world. I suspect that the aspect of physically following the eyes would be the toughest aspect of training for speed pool. CTE is see and align.

Stan Shuffett

You're right about, the brain is a powerful thing. And you're probably right about the perceptions being the toughest part of applying CTE to speed pool. A speed pool player needs to move right into the shot, minimizing any time needed for locating multiple lines, foot placement, etc...But that doesn't mean it's ruled out for speed pool players, only that it'll take more practice to be fast enough to compete with a player that just steps up and sees the shot even before he's behind the CB.

stan shuffett · Oct 5, 2017

BC21 said:
You're right about, the brain is a powerful thing. And you're probably right about the perceptions being the toughest part of applying CTE to speed pool. A speed pool player needs to move right into the shot, minimizing any time needed for locating multiple lines, foot placement, etc...But that doesn't mean it's ruled out for speed pool players, only that it'll take more practice to be fast enough to compete with a player that just steps up and sees the shot even before he's behind the CB.

That's not even close to what I said. Perceptions are the easy part. Concerning the lines. A perception is constructed from 2 defined lines. When I see a learned system perception, the lines are not a part of the conscious process. It's see a perception and align to a 3rd line which is the shot line. It's automatic. See and align. It happens in less than a second. My total perception work for a given 10 ball rack clearance would be well less than 10 seconds more like 5 or less. It would best be measured in nanoseconds.

Stan Shuffett

JoeyInCali · Oct 5, 2017

Muscle memory and visual memory ?
By shooting thousands of balls in, lining up is so easy for these guys.
Would you line up to the center of the object ball if you need to cut it ?
You wouldn't.

I think lining up for a shot isn't all that hard.
It's the repeatable stroke and hitting the cueball at the right spot at the right speed are the hardest part of the game.

BC21 · Oct 5, 2017

stan shuffett said:
That's not even close to what I said. Perceptions are the easy part. Concerning the lines. A perception is constructed from 2 defined lines. When I see a learned system perception, the lines are not a part of the conscious process. It's see a perception and align to a 3rd line which is the shot line. It's automatic. See and align. It happens in less than a second. My total perception work for a given 10 ball rack clearance would be well less than 10 seconds more like 5 or less. It would best be measured in nanoseconds.

Stan Shuffett

Sorry. I thought when you said the toughest aspect would be "physically following the eyes" you were talking about the fact that in CTE a player must first find the exact location to latch onto a perception, as you always stress the importance of leading with the eyes, then the body follows. Anyhow, you think you're total time for getting all 10 perceptions would be less than 5 seconds? That's pretty quick, but when do you start and stop the clock for each perception? I mean, you have to physically place yourself in the proper location to see a particular perception. The time it takes to get into that location to get the perception counts also.

I think it's pretty amazing to watch some of these speed pool players wipe those 10 balls out in less than 45 seconds. It's a different skills set than that used when playing most other pocket billiard games. Or maybe not. Maybe it's exactly the same, only much faster, much more automatically subconscious.

BC21 · Oct 5, 2017

JoeyInCali said:
Muscle memory and visual memory ?
By shooting thousands of balls in, lining up is so easy for these guys.
Would you line up to the center of the object ball if you need to cut it ?
You wouldn't.

I think lining up for a shot isn't all that hard.
It's the repeatable stroke and hitting the cueball at the right spot at the right speed are the hardest part of the game.

I'd say you're right. The good ol HAMB or rote method shows exactly how fast the human brain can process and recall visual images.

stan shuffett · Oct 5, 2017

BC21 said:
Sorry. I thought when you said the toughest aspect would be "physically following the eyes" you were talking about the fact that in CTE a player must first find the exact location to latch onto a perception, as you always stress the importance of leading with the eyes, then the body follows. Anyhow, you think you're total time for getting all 10 perceptions would be less than 5 seconds? That's pretty quick, but when do you start and stop the clock for each perception? I mean, you have to physically place yourself in the proper location to see a particular perception. The time it takes to get into that location to get the perception counts also.

I think it's pretty amazing to watch some of these speed pool players wipe those 10 balls out in less than 45 seconds. It's a different skills set than that used when playing most other pocket billiard games. Or maybe not. Maybe it's exactly the same, only much faster, much more automatically subconscious.

Seeing a perception and solving it is nanosecond fast. There's no real ball address work. It's just fall into stance on a no/imagination line based on an obvious perception. The eyes are faster than super computers. It's see and align,faster than hamb, because I know I going without any stutter.

There's definitely a skill set to speed pool.

Stan Shuffett

Low500 · Oct 5, 2017

JoeyInCali said:
Muscle memory and visual memory ?
By shooting thousands of balls in, lining up is so easy for these guys.
Would you line up to the center of the object ball if you need to cut it ?
You wouldn't.

-----------------

JoeyInCali · Oct 5, 2017

Low500 said:
This is not necessarily true for many people.
There are senior citizens who, at one time, played an outstanding game. Then as they became older their depth perception began to suffer even though their vision was still strong.
The angle they saw in the upright position was, unknown to them, not the same when they got down into the shooting stance. And they missed simple shots.
Pool shooting eye doctors suggested determining the angle in the standup position, getting down on dead ahead center object ball and then moving into the predetermined angle while in that position as a solution. "Portland Don" Watson comes to mind. I think Robin Bell Dodson ran into some of that too...not certain about her.
Just a polite FYI.
That 'repeatable stroke part' remains VERY powerful though.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

Well, should I restate that to " Those who can see clearly would not line up to the center of the ob if they need to cut the ball." ?

We also know we don't aim the center of the cb to the contact point unless it's a straight in shot.
And how about cue ball control ? Don't we need to visualize the hit and visualize where the cueball rebounds ?
The pro player is not going to line up and shoot unless he sees the cue ball is going where he wants it too.
Howard Vickery said in one of his commentaries, the average pro can tell where that cue ball is going within 5 degrees. He also said on the same tape, he shot over .900 against Buddy Hall once, and still lost. He also said the average pro runs out over 80% of the time with ball in hand on the 1 ball ( 9 ball game ).
Needless to say, aiming is not their problem.

It is a fact that when players start getting senior eyes, their games suffer unless they wear glasses. But, glasses can only do so much. Nothing better than real good pair of eyes. I've see Ernesto Dominguez and Efren missed balls I never saw them miss when they had young eyes. Hell, they used to shoot on 12-foot snooker tables at Hard Times.

Low500 · Oct 6, 2017

I'm not sure, but I don't think faulty depth perception can be helped much with corrective lenses. And that, in my experience, is the main culprit in 'aiming problems' since it can wreck a player's alignment (which I believe is the most important aspect of making a shot...proper alignment).??
You're right....Effren doesn't hit 'em like he used to. Too many birthdays.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

Dan White · Oct 6, 2017

BC21 said:
I almost got it in 55 seconds but rattled the last ball.

It's fun, a good exercise for quick thinking.

Yes, fun. Got a 57 and then a 54. However, on the 54 I made a ball on the break, so I only had to shoot 9 balls. That's timing from hitting the cue ball for the break shot until the last ball hits the pocket. I had trouble stopping myself from reaching for the chalk!

I can see that a lot of time is wasted on waiting for the cb to stop rolling. I think with a soft break and keeping the balls near each other sub 50 sec might not be too difficult.

BC21 · Oct 6, 2017

Dan White said:
Yes, fun. Got a 57 and then a 54. However, on the 54 I made a ball on the break, so I only had to shoot 9 balls. That's timing from hitting the cue ball for the break shot until the last ball hits the pocket. I had trouble stopping myself from reaching for the chalk!

I can see that a lot of time is wasted on waiting for the cb to stop rolling. I think with a soft break and keeping the balls near each other sub 50 sec might not be too difficult.

Excellent times! The pros strive to get each rack under 60. You'd be competitive. Of course, under pressure it might be a little different.

336Robin · Oct 7, 2017

Several years ago a friend and I got bored playing 9 ball and I looked up and said "Speed Pool" and he said yeah and we played 26 racks of 9ball in an hour as fast as we could go.

It was a great exercise and there were many racks run, many safes shot, many kicks successfully completed.

I enjoyed it very much and think if you know how you do what you do then there is nothing left but to do it. Results of speed pool show where you truly are with your techniques and instincts.

BC21 said:
I have a good friend that's shoots faster than any player I've ever seen. I told him he'd be a great speed pool player. So yesterday, out of curiosity, I watched a few Guinness Speed Pool Championship matches on YouTube. It was my first time watching any entire speed pool match. When I was younger I'd often shoot fast and loose, running around the table firing in all the stripes or solids in bar room game of 8-ball. I'd do this strictly for the comical showoff aspect, something I'm not too proud of nowadays -- the showing off part.

Anyway, last night I decided to try a little speed pool like they do in the Guinness championship matches, racking 10 balls and shooting any order. I did 5 racks and my best time was about 78 seconds. That's not good enough to win any major events, but I've seen slower times from some experienced speed pool players, so it isn't too bad I guess. My aiming method was "Just see the shot and shoot."

I struggled with completely abandoning my PSR on some shots, and though I moved quickly from one shot to the next, I didn't run as many speed pool players do. But then again, they are playing on smaller tables, and much more forgiving also. Here's my best run:

https://youtu.be/tliAxxPb7Ws

YouTube "Guinness Speed Pool" and watch a rack or two. How are these players aiming? They may have used a certain aiming system to program their brain for shots, but it's obvious they are now playing by pure feel/instinct.

This isn't a knock on aiming systems because I fully support any system that gets more people playing and enjoying pool. It's just an example of how the brain can eventually be programmed to run on auto-mode without having to rely on any full-time aiming system.

SpiderWebComm · Oct 7, 2017

Dan White said:
Yes, fun. Got a 57 and then a 54. However, on the 54 I made a ball on the break, so I only had to shoot 9 balls.

What game are you playing? Here's a guy playing 8-ball running both highs and lows and then the 8 in 44 seconds.
Edit: On a second watch, it doesn't look like highs and lows. Just 14 balls shot randomly and then the 8.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7MStvwQ6R8

I can't imagine Johnny Archer competing at this. It takes him 30 seconds to clean the table between each shot.

Speed Pool Rules
•Rack all balls making sure the 8 Ball is in the middle while the head ball is on the spot
•As soon as you hit the cue ball, the timer starts
•The cue ball must not be in motion when shooting. Any other object ball, however, can still be moving.
•Any ball may be pocketed, but the 8-ball must be last.
•All balls pocketed must be called, and fluke shots are not allowed.
•Any other ball can be moving as long as the cue ball has stopped.

According to speed pool rules, a legal shot is any shot where the cue ball contacts an object ball and either drives it to a cushion, the cue ball strikes a cushion, or an object ball is pocketed.

Speed Pool Rules - Penalties
•Scratching on the break (5 Seconds)
•Scratching the cue ball (10 Seconds)
•Cue ball falls from the table (10 Seconds)
•Object ball falls from the table (10 Seconds, ball goes in a pocket)
•If you miss the 8-Ball while trying to sink it as your final shot (10 Seconds)
•Cue ball misses balls completely (10 Seconds)
•Push shot (10 Seconds)
•If the cue ball goes directly for the 8-Ball (10 Seconds)
•8-Ball is pocketed out of turn - Loss of game

Speed Pool - How do they aim?

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