More elbow dropping nonsense

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
could be . . .

Interesting.

Now you mention it, when I am pinning my elbow I don't think I ever use a 'pure' pendulum stroke (if such a thing really exists) for slow speed shots; it is always a more J-type stroke. In common with others, I find that anticipating a linear follow through is helpful for speed control, especially at slow speeds.

But whether pendulum or J shaped, I am pretty sure that my speed control is better than when I use my regular piston type stroke.

Siz,

I definitely won't disagree with you about what is best for you. The variations in each individual's stroke makes major differences. In reality there are dozens, maybe hundreds of strokes and then we call them a very few things. I think most "J" strokers actually start the "J" a little before cue ball contact and it compensates for the natural tendency to tighten the grip a little at contact. I don't distinguish between "J" strokers after contact and pure pendulum users but I do consider "J" strokers that start the "J" before contact to be using a separate stroke.

As both JoeW and I have pointed out long ago in this thread our bodies do prep for the next action before one is complete so perhaps even the "J" stroke after contact should be considered different from the pure pendulum but I'm trying to keep stroke variations grouped into somewhat cohesive larger groupings. Dropping the elbow at the end of the backswing to extend it isn't a pure pendulum either but in theory the elbow returns to the same place so there is no change in the elbow position at cue ball contact.

The slip stroke may offer the best slow speed velocity control of all strokes properly executed. It is quite possible to move from "set position" addressing the cue ball to several practice strokes to adjust speed to a final "practice stroke" with zero variation other than letting your hand slide back a little on the backswing to hit the cue ball with exactly the same stroke as your other practice strokes.

The cold weather has my rheumatiz acting up but I plan to work on a variety of stroke changes when I get back to the hall. Everything from Neil's perfect pendulum without worrying about compensations to keep the cue tip moving level on the backswing to more time spent with the slip stroke. The slip stroke is amazingly accurate compared to my too soft grip and a pendulum. With more practice to not change my stroke on the final forward stroke to hit the cue ball I think it might be the ideal stroke for me. I'm revisiting my pump stroke too though. I've just really decided that I need to work on speed control and figure whichever stroke works best for that is the one I will keep. All strokes seem to do a pretty good job pocketing balls.

Hu(cold weather is relative, it's 50 degrees and very damp here. My friends in the frozen north have little sympathy for my weather complaints!)
 

Siz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't distinguish between "J" strokers after contact and pure pendulum users but I do consider "J" strokers that start the "J" before contact to be using a separate stroke...

As both JoeW and I have pointed out long ago in this thread our bodies do prep for the next action before one is complete so perhaps even the "J" stroke after contact should be considered different from the pure pendulum but I'm trying to keep stroke variations grouped into somewhat cohesive larger groupings. Dropping the elbow at the end of the backswing to extend it isn't a pure pendulum either but in theory the elbow returns to the same place so there is no change in the elbow position at cue ball contact.

Intrigued by your observations on the slip stroke, which I admit is something I know nothing about at all.:embarrassed2:

I do wonder whether a couple of the distinctions that you are ignoring for the sake of simplicity are probably too important to be ignored.

First, I don't think that the 'J after contact' should be grouped with the pendulum in all circumstances. I think that they belong in the same group when considering effectiveness in hitting the c.b. where you had intended. However I believe that they may need to be separated when considering speed control (because of muscle anticipation considerations)

Secondly, I would not group the stroke that drops the elbow at the end of the backswing (eg a piston like stroke) with the pendulum stroke. As you say, when done correctly, the elbow returns to its initial position. However, in practice it is difficult to do this correctly with consistency. This is a source of error in relation to contacting the cb in the right place.

Just a thought.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
It is a case of can be an issue not necessarily must be an issue, I believe

Intrigued by your observations on the slip stroke, which I admit is something I know nothing about at all.:embarrassed2:

I do wonder whether a couple of the distinctions that you are ignoring for the sake of simplicity are probably too important to be ignored.

First, I don't think that the 'J after contact' should be grouped with the pendulum in all circumstances. I think that they belong in the same group when considering effectiveness in hitting the c.b. where you had intended. However I believe that they may need to be separated when considering speed control (because of muscle anticipation considerations)

Secondly, I would not group the stroke that drops the elbow at the end of the backswing (eg a piston like stroke) with the pendulum stroke. As you say, when done correctly, the elbow returns to its initial position. However, in practice it is difficult to do this correctly with consistency. This is a source of error in relation to contacting the cb in the right place.

Just a thought.


Siz,

I do agree that both of your points can be factors. I'm not going to argue with Bob Jewett that he isn't using a pendulum stroke despite his elbow dropping over an inch at the end of the backswing on a medium speed hit though.

The muscle anticipation thing is by no means cut and dried. It can be trained out. I hate to bounce to other physical pursuits as often as I do in discussions but shooting a pistol gives concrete proof of this. I stop on a target, squeeze the trigger, wait for the bullet to leave the barrel, and move on to the next target, stop, and squeeze the trigger again. The time between shots fired is about 0.25 seconds. However, if I let my muscles prepare for the next move while the trigger is being squeezed and the chain of reactions taking place prior to the bullet leaving the barrel, the result is seen very clearly on the target.

Like lumping many variations of a stroke together under one name, it is a mistake to think that we can't learn to control muscle anticipation for a specific activity. I can control my breathing and heart rate to a certain extent and it isn't uncommon for the best across the course shooters to pause their heartbeat for a short time and fire in that pause. Pretty much all of them choose where in their heart rhythm they choose to fire. Training out muscle anticipation seems simple compared to these things.

Hu
 

Siz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Siz,

Training out muscle anticipation seems simple compared to these things.

Hu

I am sure that you are correct that training out muscle anticipation is possible in principle. Indeed, the common advice around following through, accelerating through the ball - in fact anything relating to what you do after contact - is effectively trying to do just that.

But it is not easy and will always be a weak point - a cause of inconsistency - especially in adverse conditions (tired, under pressure etc).
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Good point about the speed control, though my experience matches hu's... I have a harder time on some shots, especially short close ones. It's hard to explain it but basically you need more effort to arrive at speed X over a set distance if you focus on using only your bicep. Therefore a 20% error in 'effort' can really send the cue ball flying vs. accidentally hitting too hard when using the bigger muscles.

I pendulum when I want great accuracy on long thin cuts. On closer shots I use.. I dunno. Never saw it on video. But I'm told the elbow is not still even when I'm trying hard to make it so. Maybe my P-stroke speed control sucks because I can't do it at all and I have 1,000,000 more hours with my other stroke.
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
I pendulum when I want great accuracy on long thin cuts.

Interesting - the opposite of what I had expected to hear.

Well, here's how it works for me, and maybe some others. Basically the pause has helped me a ton on long thin shots requiring great accuracy. And when you're using the pause, somehow using the pendulum feels like a natural extension of it. You go back with just the forearm, pause, then forward. It's a very simple, compact, deliberate movement. I am not worried so much on speed control because it's a long thin cut and I'm already asking a lot just to make it. And I'm not gonna rip into it with extreme follow or draw, for the same reason (And anyway, it's thin enough that you can send the CB in either direction with just sidespin).

So basically this works for me because it feels like it belongs with the pause. And the pause is the cast iron nuts.
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Well, here's how it works for me, and maybe some others. Basically the pause has helped me a ton on long thin shots requiring great accuracy. And when you're using the pause, somehow using the pendulum feels like a natural extension of it. You go back with just the forearm, pause, then forward. It's a very simple, compact, deliberate movement. I am not worried so much on speed control because it's a long thin cut and I'm already asking a lot just to make it. And I'm not gonna rip into it with extreme follow or draw, for the same reason (And anyway, it's thin enough that you can send the CB in either direction with just sidespin).

So basically this works for me because it feels like it belongs with the pause. And the pause is the cast iron nuts.

I agree that the pause can help you shoot straighter, even if it is a minute pause. To shoot the cue ball accurately over a long distance, you must bring the straightest stroke possible and the pause CAN help.

Try the pause just before bringing the cue forward on your last stroke on this shot a few times.

CueTable Help



This will convince you rather quickly that the pause helps to keep you from pulling your cue offline on the final backswing since the cue comes to a halt or at least a smooth transition to the forward stroke.


If that doesn't work, ask ShortBus Russ for his secret via a PM. (I heard he makes you send $5 via paypal and I'm tight and won't send him the money).

JoeyA
 

Siz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, here's how it works for me, and maybe some others. Basically the pause has helped me a ton on long thin shots requiring great accuracy. And when you're using the pause, somehow using the pendulum feels like a natural extension of it. You go back with just the forearm, pause, then forward. It's a very simple, compact, deliberate movement. I am not worried so much on speed control because it's a long thin cut and I'm already asking a lot just to make it. And I'm not gonna rip into it with extreme follow or draw, for the same reason (And anyway, it's thin enough that you can send the CB in either direction with just sidespin).

So basically this works for me because it feels like it belongs with the pause. And the pause is the cast iron nuts.

I am another great fan of the final pause - in my case a fairly long one. But not just for accuracy: I find it also helps me a lot with speed control (with or without elbow dropping :wink:)
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
If that doesn't work, ask ShortBus Russ for his secret via a PM. (I heard he makes you send $5 via paypal and I'm tight and won't send him the money).

JoeyA

Am I robbing him if I say it's a touch of inside english? I still need to test this one. Snowstorm prevented it last night.
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Am I robbing him if I say it's a touch of inside english? I still need to test this one. Snowstorm prevented it last night.

Russ will bust you! Add in a little pivot, some swoop and 1/4 elbow drop and your could be on the money. :D

JoeyA
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
aaaaaaand I totally forgot to test it. However I made some nice thin cuts my traditional way so I probably won't remember it until I've dogged a few. Looking forward to trying it out. I already figured out the elbow drop part too. I'll need a filipino yoda though to show me swoop.
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
Rehi guys,

On the beginning of my post i just wanna say that i would never try to mess me with anyone- here are just too many so experienced well known instructors i respect SO MUCH- but also really would enjoy to receive response and critic on my posting.

Til now noone *found the gral* to teach billiards and especially the mechanics etc. - but in my humble opinion there are some that are extremly close to it.
The Reason about this posting is that some guys pmed and emailed me with a question. They asked me what i meant with the *anatomical length of your stroke*- ok i ll try to show and explain here what i mean. And ofc i am really lookin forward for comments from the amazingly experienced guys like RandyG, Scott, STeve, Dr.Dave, Dr9Ball etc. etc. pp ^^

Ok here a little picture of a *stroke-arm* i found in an old paper for a student from the early 90 s.
test1.jpg

The distance from ellbow joint to the *begin of your grip*. The *begin of the grip* i would describe where cue *touches* your cue. So i mean the upper point of the cue in your hand. This length of course is individual for everyone. So if you know this length it s just about physics (and a bit mechanics :p) - depending on this length you can move your forearm (downwards the ellbow-joint) without moving your upper-arm/or even ellbow!

If i write here about the anatomical length i need to talk even so about the anatomical end of your stoke- if you know about your anatomical length you should know also *your* anatomical end of the stroke.

Imagine you are *down* to make your stroke. In this case you ll probably have this mostly discussed *right angle* while your tip is about 1-2 inches from the cueball. Usualy i teach my student this: the anatomical length will show you and force you how far your bridge is placed from the cueball. In my case it s about the distance from one diamond to the next diamond (exactly 29.5 cm). So if i start my stroke from there (with the distance cueball <-------> Bridge-Hand i am able to stoke through the cueball without moving my ellbow/upperarm and even so i am able to accelerate fast enough to do EVERY shot successfully just using my (attention-here it comes again :grin-square:) PENDULUM-STOKE.

The anatomical length with his starting position and the (anatomical) end of the stroke is naturally given- individual to everyone depending on how tall or small he is. And here you all can think about if you re watchin other guys playin- you will see (if you re really thinkin about it!) if guy for example is too far away from the cueball
(distance cueball <----->bridgehand)
he will have a problem- he can t finish his stroke (usualy) successful. He will not be able to accelerate trough the cueball because the stroke itself *ended before his anatomical end*-
With the correct distance of your bridge you re sure to be able to go parallel *through* the cueball- and only then you re able to have control over it.

At least one thing from my side- many are discussing about Pendulum or Piston Stroke- All i can say from my experience. Pool and Snooker Players have a bit different stance and stroke. The concept instructors of DBU (gemany, also associated to wpa) are teaching is very close to what the BCA and even so the SPF is teaching. The concept of the stroke the DBU were taught to the *certifying instructors* say this (just about physics!!)
the highest point of acceleration of your stroke is a bit behind the centre of the cueball after you hit it. If you compare this to the concept of snooker there is just one thing that is different. Snooker Players usualy using a lower stance- and their bridge is a bit longer (distance cb----> bridge). Both can be taught in my opinion. This difference is given because you re just using another stance (so balance/weight is a bit different).



Ok, i hope my low english was good enough and that didn t make too many grammar mistakes :p
if i made some mistakes caused by a conversion-problem-sry for that and i would enjoy correcting me. I would love to receive a response by guys like -Dr.Dave for example because his knowledge about the theoretical things and physics are so amazing.....-then i would be sure that i didn t post bullsh..t ^^


lg
Ingo

P.S. @CreeDo Bro- if you want have accouracy on cutshots? <---- ??? i prefer to have accouracy on every shot- so why not pendulum stroke on every shot :p take care ^^


Edited: i deleted 1 sentence- i stupidly wrote here a sentence (where i was personally also unsure when i heard it !) without really checkin it 100 %- trusted it....and finally talked to may guys about it and got common with all that there is no difference about the *highest point of acceleration* between a "pool-stroke* and a *snooker stroke*- I am sorry if i confused some guys-but very thanksful that guys pmed me about this point. Now, after i discussed this point with some very experienced and excellent instructors i edited my post :) thx for this !!
 
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Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
Well, here's how it works for me, and maybe some others. Basically the pause has helped me a ton on long thin shots requiring great accuracy. And when you're using the pause, somehow using the pendulum feels like a natural extension of it. You go back with just the forearm, pause, then forward. It's a very simple, compact, deliberate movement. I am not worried so much on speed control because it's a long thin cut and I'm already asking a lot just to make it. And I'm not gonna rip into it with extreme follow or draw, for the same reason (And anyway, it's thin enough that you can send the CB in either direction with just sidespin).

So basically this works for me because it feels like it belongs with the pause. And the pause is the cast iron nuts.


Try to use the Pendulum Stroke for the other shots, too- if it works on thin cuts it works on other shots too for sure ^^ it s all about *straightness*...nothin else :)

lg
Ingo
 

Siz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Reason about this posting is that some guys pmed and emailed me with a question. They asked me what i meant with the *anatomical length of your stroke*- ok i ll try to show and explain here what i mean. ...

Ratta,

Are you saying that, depending on the length of your forearm, there is a maximum distance that you can move the cue back and forth while keeping it horizontal using the natural way the grip changes during the motion?

Or have I missed even more than I normally do? :embarrassed2:

Simon
 
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