Why do older cues
- Thread starter alstl
- Start date
One reason might be. And I'm guessing. But when you spin a shaft with the screw mounted in it. It wants to unscrew. Robinson cues are still made with the screw glued into the shaft.
The first 2 piece cues were joined by using a male threaded tenon on the shaft
screwing into female threads in the butt. Eventually, the threaded tenon was replaced
by a brass threaded pin.
Brunswick stayed with this approach until the advent of the Willie Hoppe Pro,
1940-ish. A bit ironic, in that they made much fanfair about how this new
cue designed for expert players had the same specs as the cue Hoppe played
with... except that Hoppe's personal cue had the pin(s) in the shaft(s)
.Why they changed?
Maybe because inserts were cheaper than pins??
I know many people feel the pin anchored in the butt is more solid than
in the shaft.
Dale
Bingo....pd....more solid installed in the butt of the cue. One of the most common repair jobs back in the day....was replacing the split shaft that was somehow whacked on the table, cue dropped, too hard a bend while following through on the break, etc. Joint bands and joint collars made things even stronger.
I would think that it was an innovation due to mass produced cues made as parts instead of cues made as an individual item. Making parts between centres is a lot faster in manufacturing terms. It also meant that they could make shafts to fit a variety handles with confidence. The smaller 5/16 pin they used in the day, made the handle stronger and the shaft stronger as well. Wood pins work well and people still make cues with wood pins as part of the shaft. The wood pins can also be replaced and repaired like any other pin.
Using brass joint components put some more weight further forward in the cue. Some builders use the pin to help weight and balance a cue as they have evolved over the years. Brass components were most likely chosen at the time due to speed of manufacturing, and the non rusting and being relatively easy to have adhesives to bond to it. Of course in the 1940's mass producing quite precise parts cheaply , particularly round components happened. They could hold 0.0004 inches on parts all day everyday. Quite a testament really.
Using brass joint components put some more weight further forward in the cue. Some builders use the pin to help weight and balance a cue as they have evolved over the years. Brass components were most likely chosen at the time due to speed of manufacturing, and the non rusting and being relatively easy to have adhesives to bond to it. Of course in the 1940's mass producing quite precise parts cheaply , particularly round components happened. They could hold 0.0004 inches on parts all day everyday. Quite a testament really.
Another reason is the Butt is the expensive part on most cues. So if you want a longer cue then it is very easy to add an inch to the shaft and you have an inch longer cue. Having the pin in the butt cuts down on the shafts being so long as they would be with the pin sticking out of them. It also made it easier for Rambow to get the patent on the new joint with the pin in the opposite side than other patents had. The next reason I see is pure sales. Make something new and it becomes the latest and greatest. As someone mentioned the Willie Hoppe model. They wanted you to play like Willie Hoppe and what you need is a cue just like his. :smile:
I personally do not think the pin being in either side makes much difference as to how the cue plays or the over all strength of the joint. But Burton Spain refused to change and put the pin in the butt and his cues sold pretty cheap. Shortly after he passed away and Joel took over, he changed the pin to the butt like the market wanted and his sales and prices speak for themselves on that decision. I see cues now with 1/2" ferrules that the maker swore by the 1.25" ferrules for decades. That is purely adapting to the market IMO. I stuck with the 5/16 flat faced joint all through the years when the market wanted 3/8 pins in a flat faced joint. I did it because I felt it played better. Was that a good decision as far as marketing goes? Probably not. I also saw a larger manufacture, that had robots prove the small pin joint to be superior in performance, adapt to the market and introduce a line with the large pin.
I personally do not think the pin being in either side makes much difference as to how the cue plays or the over all strength of the joint. But Burton Spain refused to change and put the pin in the butt and his cues sold pretty cheap. Shortly after he passed away and Joel took over, he changed the pin to the butt like the market wanted and his sales and prices speak for themselves on that decision. I see cues now with 1/2" ferrules that the maker swore by the 1.25" ferrules for decades. That is purely adapting to the market IMO. I stuck with the 5/16 flat faced joint all through the years when the market wanted 3/8 pins in a flat faced joint. I did it because I felt it played better. Was that a good decision as far as marketing goes? Probably not. I also saw a larger manufacture, that had robots prove the small pin joint to be superior in performance, adapt to the market and introduce a line with the large pin.
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carom cue shafts are threaded 1/2-10 pin
on the shaft not butt
solid wood no metal pin
i also have a carom shaft for a pool cue butt that has 3/8-10 pin
i dont notice much of a difference
big carom cue manufacturers make both styles,
top carom pros use both
i dont care for the look of the long ferrule that would be my only prefernce to that, being that all carom shafts have them at about 1/2 inch anyways
on the shaft not butt
solid wood no metal pin
i also have a carom shaft for a pool cue butt that has 3/8-10 pin
i dont notice much of a difference
big carom cue manufacturers make both styles,
top carom pros use both
i dont care for the look of the long ferrule that would be my only prefernce to that, being that all carom shafts have them at about 1/2 inch anyways
Pool Cues are no different than any other product in the marketplace.
If it isnt what the buyers want then it dont sell.
Look at all the big production cue makers now selling an "Import" line with their name stamped on them.
Why? ... cost ... the under $200 market is a HUGE one.
I agree with others that once the cue is screwed together it don't make much difference which side of the pin the glue is on.
Many cues have a second shaft.
That would mean two pins instead of one pin.
Crappy cues need new shafts over the years. If you replaced two shafts after a few years, you're now paying for a fourth pin.
Don't get me started on Pins, I pay $10 each for them and getting PERFECT pins is not the easiest, I have more than 20 that were junk on delivery. I made a video I may put on youtube when I get the time, it shows some pins are off by .004" upon delivery. Into the garbage they went. A good pin will show on my Lathe at around two ten thousands of an inch off, it could simply be the chuck, it's set up perfect at my collet diameter but .0002" is awesome for pins and/or a Chuck. That's with the center barrel in the chuck and measured at the end of the pin, then the pin is reversed and the flat spot behind the barrel is tested, they must be perfect or,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
That would mean two pins instead of one pin.
Crappy cues need new shafts over the years. If you replaced two shafts after a few years, you're now paying for a fourth pin.
Don't get me started on Pins, I pay $10 each for them and getting PERFECT pins is not the easiest, I have more than 20 that were junk on delivery. I made a video I may put on youtube when I get the time, it shows some pins are off by .004" upon delivery. Into the garbage they went. A good pin will show on my Lathe at around two ten thousands of an inch off, it could simply be the chuck, it's set up perfect at my collet diameter but .0002" is awesome for pins and/or a Chuck. That's with the center barrel in the chuck and measured at the end of the pin, then the pin is reversed and the flat spot behind the barrel is tested, they must be perfect or,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Is it possible to have one of these old pin-in-shaft cues converted to the modern standard... Say, for example, I wanted to throw a z3 on my old 4-piece cue (disregarding price vs. worth vs. playability)...
P.S. If it is possible, can some of the cuemakers here PM me on estimated prices to have this done???
Thanks!
P.S. If it is possible, can some of the cuemakers here PM me on estimated prices to have this done???
Thanks!
Strictly speaking from my understanding of the history of jointed cues and some basic engineering principles:
Additionally to what other people have written, traditionally, the first threaded joint just was an externally threaded dowel or turned-down diameter section at the joint end of the shaft. The mating butt had internal threading.
Why did they put the male thread on the shaft?? Because if you were to do the big threaded pin like that, the butt section (due to the taper) has more material to withstand a female drill/boring and internal threading given the size of wood thread that somebody must have calculated for strength.
In other words, if they decided to put a 1/2" male thread on the butt section, the resultant hoop strength of an internal female 1/2" thread on the shaft would probably seem iffy and unnecessary, when you could just as easily put the thread on the shaft end.
Generally today, a 3/8-10 on the butt section going into a shaft is fine since 3/8 is smaller than a 1/2 threading, and most shafts at 3/8-10 have a hoop-retaining collar of some sort (phenolic or whatever). So more hoop strength with the smaller pin as well as some sort of hoop reinforcement.
Did someone ask for a 3/8-10 Sneaky Pete, no collars? Purely anectdotal, but the one cue that I split the shaft was this configuration (big pin into wood, no collar). YMMV.
Freddie
Pretty much what I'd always assumed too. If you're going to use a a big wood thread, you need a big piece of wood to thread it into.
Heubler sneaky Pete's was another where the wood split on the shaft with the plastic insert. Phenolic inserts have their place.
Correct me if I am wrong but does not the pin essentially screw into both the shaft and the butt in either case?
Generally the end of the pin that is glued in is longer than the part that is exposed to screw into the other part.
So if you do a pin in shaft it is simply that the longer glued in end of the pin is extending farther into a smaller diameter than if you glued it into the butt.
Correct?
.
Generally the end of the pin that is glued in is longer than the part that is exposed to screw into the other part.
So if you do a pin in shaft it is simply that the longer glued in end of the pin is extending farther into a smaller diameter than if you glued it into the butt.
Correct?
.
That may explain why we not infrequently see old Huebler Sneaky cues for sale with a non-original shaft.
It may also explain why my favorite joint for a "true sneaky" is a piloted 5/16x14 with a serious pilot, like an old TS sneaky, not the little nub "pilot" like you see on a modern Joss.
.
Dennis Dieckman who made exceptional wood pin shafts, didn't drill bore and insert the pin. He simply cut the pin then cut the thread. Maybe lazy but it's a pain in the butt ... I mean shaft to get the pin 1000% perfectly centered.
A famous cue builder broke one of my pins off while replacing a tip. This builder called Dennis on what to do since he didn't know how to cut the threads. Dennis took the job gratis. It's not that he couldn't do it, he just didn't want to.
Question is which is stronger? Inserting a pin or simply cutting it.
Ah yes, I understand.
But that is unusual construction, no?
Usually the wood pin is made as a separate piece, and screwed/glued in place.
Dieckman, of course, had to do it the harder way. :wink: But I imagine his repair that you mentioned involved boring the shaft and putting a new wood pin in it.
Wood pin carom cues do still today generally have the pin in shaft.
I was thinking of "standard" metal pins when I made my comment.
.
ASFAIK - There is onkly one cuemaker who does it that way. The standard method
is to thread a tenon on the joint end of the shaft.
Dale
In old school thinking, I would agree with you 100 percent but today? It would blow your mind if you saw some of the rediculous things I've repaired on joint screws. I'm talking joint screws as short as 3/4" in length to be glued, and less than 1/4" actual thread. Pretty funny stuff across the board.
I've seen pilot's sticking out from .080 to 5/16" in length. From .450 o.d. to .565. Pretty wide variance.