Would this be considered sandbagging?

TheNewSharkster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is the scenario:

1. Our team is qualified for LTC in APA 9ball. For those who do not know LTC stands for Local Team Championship. The winners of this tournament go to Vegas for Nationals

2. It is near the end of spring session. LTC happens right after spring session ends. Our team is in first place.

3. Several players on the team have won a high percentage of matches played. So they *might* be close to moving up a skill level

This is recognized by the captain. He decided to not play some players so they didn't change skill levels before LTC. These players *DID NOT* miss shots or lose matches on purpose. They simply did not play.

Is this sandbagging?
 

DallasHopps

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Handicap management is not always sandbagging, but sandbagging is always handicap management.

It's a legitimate strategy and within the rules. If they need to go up, it'll happen at LTCs. Be ready for that.
 

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is the scenario:

1. Our team is qualified for LTC in APA 9ball. For those who do not know LTC stands for Local Team Championship. The winners of this tournament go to Vegas for Nationals

2. It is near the end of spring session. LTC happens right after spring session ends. Our team is in first place.

3. Several players on the team have won a high percentage of matches played. So they *might* be close to moving up a skill level

This is recognized by the captain. He decided to not play some players so they didn't change skill levels before LTC. These players *DID NOT* miss shots or lose matches on purpose. They simply did not play.

Is this sandbagging?

Sounds like strategy, not sandbagging. OTOH, I play apa to play, not to go to Vegas. I'd rather play my way into being a champion rather than back into it.
 

BarTableMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sandbagging Issue

Not playing someone is fine. But... if a team has several players that this applies too... then it looks like the sandbagging during the session has already happened and now you are in "protection" mode. You need to ask yourself: Did every player attempt to make every shot and win every game they could in the most fair and efficient manner? If a single shot was missed on purpose and not marked as a safety by any player, then...BANNED FOR LIFE AND THROWN INTO THE TORTURE CHAMBER!

30 Year APA Member and still finding league night awesome!
 

Solomon

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I wouldn't consider it sandbagging.

Personally, I feel that a lot of people like to use 'sandbagging' as an excuse for losing. I have this guy on my team that is always making excuses to why he's not playing to his potential. I try my best not to entertain his excuses. I finally had to tell him, "Look! If you aren't making it to the hill, then it doesn't matter if the other person should be 1 skill level higher or not because you wouldn't have won anyway."
 

DAVE_M

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Handicap management is not always sandbagging, but sandbagging is always handicap management.

It's a legitimate strategy and within the rules. If they need to go up, it'll happen at LTCs. Be ready for that.

I agree with these statements.

Having players lose matches and/or pad innings is sandbagging.
Having players that could potentially increase in skill level, sit out a few, is not sandbagging.
 

TheNewSharkster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not playing someone is fine. But... if a team has several players that this applies too... then it looks like the sandbagging during the session has already happened and now you are in "protection" mode. You need to ask yourself: Did every player attempt to make every shot and win every game they could in the most fair and efficient manner? If a single shot was missed on purpose and not marked as a safety by any player, then...BANNED FOR LIFE AND THROWN INTO THE TORTURE CHAMBER!

30 Year APA Member and still finding league night awesome!



Nobody on the team missed any shots of purpose. I believe I already mentioned that when this topic was created.
 

peteypooldude

I see Edges
Silver Member
Here is the scenario:

1. Our team is qualified for LTC in APA 9ball. For those who do not know LTC stands for Local Team Championship. The winners of this tournament go to Vegas for Nationals

2. It is near the end of spring session. LTC happens right after spring session ends. Our team is in first place.

3. Several players on the team have won a high percentage of matches played. So they *might* be close to moving up a skill level

This is recognized by the captain. He decided to not play some players so they didn't change skill levels before LTC. These players *DID NOT* miss shots or lose matches on purpose. They simply did not play.

Is this sandbagging?

No , that's simply strategy. A captain not using strategy is not much of a captain. We have a money league that pays "high average " and we have a player with the highest average in the league and with only about 5 weeks left we don't play him against teams that have players that can run out on him even if we're a man short. We didn't help him get there but since our team splits everything we are protecting him. Keep in mind that we don't have to play him period since his weeks are in
 
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tpoppa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Running out isn't the only strategy in APA. I am fine with a little gamesmanship, but obvious sandbagging is really annoying.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is the scenario:

1. Our team is qualified for LTC in APA 9ball. For those who do not know LTC stands for Local Team Championship. The winners of this tournament go to Vegas for Nationals

2. It is near the end of spring session. LTC happens right after spring session ends. Our team is in first place.

3. Several players on the team have won a high percentage of matches played. So they *might* be close to moving up a skill level

This is recognized by the captain. He decided to not play some players so they didn't change skill levels before LTC. These players *DID NOT* miss shots or lose matches on purpose. They simply did not play.

Is this sandbagging?

Not even close to sandbagging. Smart captain. It would be like picking a table to play on if you can that you know your players know how to play on. Get a good player and a beginner on a tight table for example instead of just any random table.
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
I asked this same question a few months ago. ( http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=362485 ) I think the consensus was that it should be considered management and strategy and not be seen as sandbagging. Of course, it didn't take long within the LTC for any player that was close to be raised.
When it was over, I sort of questioned the honesty of the situation. Lets' say the player in question was a 5 and close to becoming a 6. The captain knew darn well that the player would have / should have been a 6 but through a series of well placed losses and falling through the cracks has remained a 5. Is the captain, or should have the captain been or felt obligated, in the spirit of competition, to voluntarily advance his player to 6 status prior to the tournament?
In the end, our player played and won his match and was advanced to a 6 and we won that match, but lost the next and our player remains a 6. So, though the strategy worked, it was a short lived success and a sort of a Pyrrhic victory and not terribly satisfying.
Bottom line, it's questionable but legal, and in my opinion not terribly ethical
 

Billiardsfan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is not sandbagging by any definition. You will however have to understand that the LO will have to review all players advancing to the nationals and if they believe that player A should actually be a higher skill level they will and should raise them. The reason being is that if your LO has a team that gets disqualified at nationals, then they actually lose a spot for the next years nationals and everyone in your area will lose out if that happens.

On this subject I have found that the best way to manipulate a players handicap is to play them against opponents that you know they will lose to.

The only way to truly sandbag is for you to not mark down defensive shots, and by definition they are ANY shot that the intent was not to pocket a ball. If everyone marks defensive shots accurately (or close to) then there would be very little to argue about.
 

TheNewSharkster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I asked this same question a few months ago. ( http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=362485 ) I think the consensus was that it should be considered management and strategy and not be seen as sandbagging. Of course, it didn't take long within the LTC for any player that was close to be raised.
When it was over, I sort of questioned the honesty of the situation. Lets' say the player in question was a 5 and close to becoming a 6. The captain knew darn well that the player would have / should have been a 6 but through a series of well placed losses and falling through the cracks has remained a 5. Is the captain, or should have the captain been or felt obligated, in the spirit of competition, to voluntarily advance his player to 6 status prior to the tournament?
In the end, our player played and won his match and was advanced to a 6 and we won that match, but lost the next and our player remains a 6. So, though the strategy worked, it was a short lived success and a sort of a Pyrrhic victory and not terribly satisfying.
Bottom line, it's questionable but legal, and in my opinion not terribly ethical


In this example the players had been playing at the same skill level for several years but had won somewhere around 8 out of the last 10 during the spring session.

I will add that our team made it to the finals of LTC and lost. During the tournament nobody was moved up or down.
 

Stones

YEAH, I'M WOOFING AT YOU!
Silver Member
As soon as I saw the word "sandbagging" in the title of the thread, I thought APA?. I opened the thread, and sure enough, it's about the APA. Imagine that!

The admin of this website should create a subforum called "Basic to Advanced Sandbagging Techiques for the APA and other Handicapped Leagues"!

Kind of a long title. They could just shorten it to the "Bi@tch and Whine" subforum! LOL

Of course, the downside of this would be losing about 20% of the traffic in the Main Forum!


Stones
 

tradr48

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sandbagging

Come on people, the whole world runs on sandbagging! I've never understood why the player who's trying to get the edge gets a bad rap for his "performance" but the CEO may receive millions in bonuses for outsmarting the competition.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Handicap management is not always sandbagging, but sandbagging is always handicap management.

It's a legitimate strategy and within the rules. If they need to go up, it'll happen at LTCs. Be ready for that.

This is the correct answer.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
As soon as I saw the word "sandbagging" in the title of the thread, I thought APA?. I opened the thread, and sure enough, it's about the APA. Imagine that!

The admin of this website should create a subforum called "Basic to Advanced Sandbagging Techiques for the APA and other Handicapped Leagues"!

Kind of a long title. They could just shorten it to the "Bi@tch and Whine" subforum! LOL

Of course, the downside of this would be losing about 20% of the traffic in the Main Forum!


Stones

When you consider that more people play APA than any other organized pool endeavor, its not surprising that APA-related discussions are prevelant on a pool forum.

Despite the best efforts of those who don't like the APA.
 

moneytalks

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
APA Sandbaggers Galore

You pretty much HAVE to manage you players in APA because of all the other sandbaggers. Our league is ridiculous. How much "strategy" went in to the teams that actually WIN in vegas? I've only played APA here locally, but it makes me think that the best teams are the best sandbaggers for the most part. I hope it's different elsewhere.

We qualified for City and are definitely sitting some mid-level players. We can't all be 6's. My answer is no... not sandbagging.

Are you racking up innings? ...or just working on your safety game? We have scorekeepers that add innings to their tally... hoping the other team will play along, or at least split the difference of the two totals.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
to the op ...what your captain did is not sandbagging. actually it is not even handicap management. if he is sitting a player who he thinks is borderline being raised all he is doing is prolonging the inevitable.

i dont believe in sandbagging or handicap manipulation but i do believe in handicap management.

let me share how i managed some ones handicap in 8 ball and now working on his 9 ball handicap.

i have a player who in my opinion is over handicapped as a 5. i spoke to my lo a few times but of course he did nothing '' really did not expect him to...i was just blowing steam. he went through a phase where he beat the crap out of every 3 and some 4's and was raised to a 5. how ever he can not beat any other 5 in the league much less any one higher.

last session i made sure he never played any one under a 5 and sure enough he never won a match last session. he was lowered to a 4....this is 8 ball. he is still a 5 in 9 ball but i am working on that. :D

2 weeks ago i matched this player up against the lo in 9 ball. i was standing by the lo watching the match as my team mate was shooting.....this was about half way through the match. my lo says to me...you are right....he sucks. i said ... i been telling you that for the last year lol. last week i matched him up against a 5 who i hardly ever beat. sure enough my player lost 17-3. i think the score was 38-18 or some thing like that. oh yea ... he lost to the lo 18-2. i am a 5 and i have beat the lo a few times and have never lost worse than 12-8. i lost to an 8 this past weekend 65-34. i think we have matched up about 4 times.. all the losses were 12-8 and i won 1 match. he would have murdered my team mate.

that shows the difference in skill level between me and my team mate although we are both 5's.

i would never ask any one to sand bag but i will match them up to lose if i need to.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You pretty much HAVE to manage you players in APA because of all the other sandbaggers. Our league is ridiculous. How much "strategy" went in to the teams that actually WIN in vegas? I've only played APA here locally, but it makes me think that the best teams are the best sandbaggers for the most part. I hope it's different elsewhere.

We qualified for City and are definitely sitting some mid-level players. We can't all be 6's. My answer is no... not sandbagging.

Are you racking up innings? ...or just working on your safety game? We have scorekeepers that add innings to their tally... hoping the other team will play along, or at least split the difference of the two totals.

it is definitely different here. dont even think about racking up innings on your score sheet around here. too many people will report you to the lo.

i will admit i believe there are some sand baggers in my area. every area and every league will have a few people who try to manipulate the rules to their advantage.

i have onle been to vegas 1 time and we did not get far. we only faced 4 teams due to some piss poor playing by a couple of my team mates. out all the matches we played i will say i saw 2 players who i thought were darn good for their handicap level. a 2 and a 3. actually some of my opponents may have thought i was a sandbagger as well as i played out there . i played better than i normally do but again i am no sandbagger...i just play well under pressure most times.

i beat another 5 38-4...beat a 5 38-10. lost to a 7 55-36 after being down 18-0 before i ever got to the table. lost to a 3. a very good 3 but i would not say he is a sandbagger. i did not play very well that match.
 
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