CTE Shot Circle

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
First of all, let me begin by saying Happy Easter to everyone.

This thread isn't meant to stir controversy (I PROMISE), rather maybe fill in some knowledge gaps with CTE. While at the Super Billiard Expo as well as more recently at some local events, people have been coming up to me asking about how CTE works, etc. Many report that some shots they make, some shots they don't --- and others they miss completely.

In past threads, I've mentioned that the secret is in the pivot and that you can't make every shot with the exact same pivot. As a matter of fact, I think the word "pivot" is probably a misnomer when describing anything having to do with CTE since the cue never truly "pivots" from where the wood touches your skin (as if there were a pin driven through the shaft into the table). I knew this was a bad term the moment I met Mike Page in person in Towson, MD a while back.

Before I begin, a few disclaimers:

- You should never sight directly down the CTEL (center to edge line). Your head should always be on one side or the other. I like pretending the CTEL is a vertical plane - my body leans against it, one side or the other.

- The bridge position is not really correct in the diagram... it's never on the CTEL. I did it this way just for simplicity in making the diagram. My only intent is to show how the shot circle works - not the other details of CTE.

- I'm not going to argue CTE with aiming police, respectfully. This post is for those who are using this stuff successfully but can't explain why, or those who are not - but want to.

- I'll only contribute if the tone is friendly and non-condescending, and the topic deals with pivoting. My reason for this is maybe if one topic is discussed at a time, the information won't become diluted and lost in a feeding frenzy.


Consider the following:

f_CTEShotCircm_e963999.jpg


What you see here applies to any shot until the distance between the OB and CB is less than the bridge length. I always shorten my bridge to a distance shorter than that between the CB and OB when this happens. Technically, a "pivot" isn't required at all - that's another story... you can step into the top of the shot circle from one side of the CTEL.

If you were to rotate the cue in the bridge as a true pivot (once again, pretend a nail is driven through the point where the cue touches the skin and into the slate), the cue would turn around the bridge circle radius. This is why people miss shots completely. You would technically only turn the cue like this on a short shot.

For the "mechanical pivoters" out there, you always place your bridge first. Once you're set in your bridge, the cue is turned along the shot circle arc, in relation to the OB - not "rotated/pivoted" from the bridge (bridge circle arc).

This is just a helpful way to describe what is really happening. This is not a functional way of playing....i.e. no one has to "see" a circle on the table in order to make any shot. This is really a "classroom" style of learning how to pivot (um, turn your cue).

OK - practical application when at the table: You should see the OB as a two-dimensional object on a vertical plane (think of the OB as a sticker on a window when down on your shot). Imagine your cue extending to the window and scrape your tip along it until you hit center ball. That's what I do. I only "see a shot circle" on very close shots - within, say, a foot or so.

Notice the longer the shot is, the bigger the circle--- the flatter the arc (think of the Earth - when you look at the horizon, it's nearly flat). The shorter the shot, the smaller the circle--- the curvier the arc (think of a basketball).

I think the reason why so many people say this is a visual system is because they "pivot to the OB" and make the shot and don't know why.

In conclusion, the "correct" center of the CB is determined by the position of the OB, always.... not by the bridge position/bridge length.

.....

I know this is a controversial subject because of some heated threads in the past... some of which I was contributing to the heat. I honestly didn't feel it was my place to post details, so I didn't. As time goes on and I see more and more players using the info or trying to based on the little tidbits they get, I feel more open to sharing freely.

There are some foreign players who share information freely while Americans rice-bowl and in-fight. If things are friendly, open, inquisitive, and brotherly - I'd like to help. If not, I'll just quit posting because I don't want to fight on here anymore... because it's not worth it to me. This is really for cte people or those interested - not a pro/against cte thread.

Happy Easter everyone - best to you and your families.


PS.

FIRSSSSSSSSSST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Last edited:

woody_968

BRING BACK 14.1
Silver Member
Nice post, and Im glad to see it. Ive messed with CTE with mixed success. So I have a couple questions.

You say not to sight down the CTE line, but to be off to one side. It would seem difficult to me to line up CTE with your sight line off to the side.

Later you mention Mechanical Pivoters who place their bridge first. I guess this would be what I was doing. If you place your bridge first the only way to pivot the cue is at the bridge, isnt it?

Is your pivot point a set distance from the CTE line on every shot, or does it vary depending on cut angle?

Thanks for your input.

Woody
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Later you mention Mechanical Pivoters who place their bridge first. I guess this would be what I was doing. If you place your bridge first the only way to pivot the cue is at the bridge, isnt it?

Is your pivot point a set distance from the CTE line on every shot, or does it vary depending on cut angle?

Thanks for your input.

Woody

1) No. That's why pivot is really a misnomer. I "turn" the cue through the bridge, scraping along the OB vertical plane. The bridge position never changes unless you're in TIGHT quarters. Try it at a table, you can rotate from the point where the cue touches your hand... or you shift during a "scrape." Bridge position is the same either way.

2) You always look at the outermost edge based on the shot. I step to the side to see the outermost edge, and then place my bridge hand spot at center ball (which at this point is not on the CTEL). This is why when you see the old diagrams with the same angle of attack from CB to OB and parallel the same shot over - why some people say this is a myth. In reality, it's a different OB "edge" based on your body position.
 

tjlmbklr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First of all, let me begin by saying Happy Easter to everyone.
....snipped....

I was reading along when I realized...I hate reading, I haven't even opened Jay Helferts book yet!.


You wouldn't happen to give lessons on this subject do you? I have Rons # but haven't dedicated anytime to call him. Mostly in fear that I am not going to be able to do the necessary tasked via phone to make it worth my while.

I will travel within reason.....:D

TJ
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
I was reading along when I realized...I hate reading, I haven't even opened Jay Helferts book yet!.


You wouldn't happen to give lessons on this subject do you? I have Rons # but haven't dedicated anytime to call him. Mostly in fear that I am not going to be able to do the necessary tasked via phone to make it worth my while.

I will travel within reason.....:D

TJ

Thanks for reminding me - I need to buy his book. Stan gives CTE lessons, I would call him. Ron also gives face to face lessons. I would rather refer you to one of these guys because these guys do it for a living and are great teachers - each with a unique curriculum. You would never want a lesson from me, I think I'm a bad teacher honestly. I'm too A.D.D. If you see me at an event, come up to say hi and I'll help you for free - just as Hal/Ron first taught me.
 

woody_968

BRING BACK 14.1
Silver Member
1) say you are hitting a thinner cut to the left, so you would be finding the right edge of the OB from standing on the left side of the CTE line. How far left of the CTE line are you sighting, and does it matter?

2)I guess what I dont get, is call it a pivot or turn, it the bridge is placed and then an adjustment is made to the cue angle it must turn around the bridge unless the bridge is slid one way or the other.

so does the bridge stay still or do you allow it to slide while making your turn?

thanks

Woody
 

tjlmbklr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for reminding me - I need to buy his book. Stan gives CTE lessons, I would call him. Ron also gives face to face lessons. I would rather refer you to one of these guys because these guys do it for a living and are great teachers - each with a unique curriculum. You would never want a lesson from me, I think I'm a bad teacher honestly. I'm too A.D.D. If you see me at an event, come up to say hi and I'll help you for free - just as Hal/Ron first taught me.

I here you on the A.D.D thing I can't stay focused.....hey look at the pretty birdy!.......


But seriously, if I make it to ANY event I will look for you. But trying to see where Hal/Ron is to possibly travel there may be something I might wanna look into.

Thanks!
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
1) say you are hitting a thinner cut to the left, so you would be finding the right edge of the OB from standing on the left side of the CTE line. How far left of the CTE line are you sighting, and does it matter?

2)I guess what I dont get, is call it a pivot or turn, it the bridge is placed and then an adjustment is made to the cue angle it must turn around the bridge unless the bridge is slid one way or the other.

so does the bridge stay still or do you allow it to slide while making your turn?

thanks

Woody

1) For purposes of this thread, I'd like to avoid this subject. You're asking good questions - trust me. I'd just prefer to answer them in a separate thread after this thread dies.

2) Bridge never moves. If you try to keep eye/cue alignment, it might slide SLIGHTLY--- and I mean it's a slight cue shift...tiny. If you don't try to keep eye/cue alignment - there's no noticeable cue shift (based at my bridge length at least, 10-11". Never a bridge shift.


Gonna go watch the Masters... will be back later.
 
Last edited:

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Dave,

Good job, and Happy Easter!

This is the sort of information that has been lacking in the past. I look forward to seeing more info like this so the generally-accepted version of the CTE aiming method will become more clear.

Regards,
Dave

First of all, let me begin by saying Happy Easter to everyone.

This thread isn't meant to stir controversy (I PROMISE), rather maybe fill in some knowledge gaps with CTE. While at the Super Billiard Expo as well as more recently at some local events, people have been coming up to me asking about how CTE works, etc. Many report that some shots they make, some shots they don't --- and others they miss completely.

In past threads, I've mentioned that the secret is in the pivot and that you can't make every shot with the exact same pivot. As a matter of fact, I think the word "pivot" is probably a misnomer when describing anything having to do with CTE since the cue never truly "pivots" from where the wood touches your skin (as if there were a pin driven through the shaft into the table). I knew this was a bad term the moment I met Mike Page in person in Towson, MD a while back.

Before I begin, a few disclaimers:

- You should never sight directly down the CTEL (center to edge line). Your head should always be on one side or the other. I like pretending the CTEL is a vertical plane - my body leans against it, one side or the other.

- The bridge position is not really correct in the diagram... it's never on the CTEL. I did it this way just for simplicity in making the diagram. My only intent is to show how the shot circle works - not the other details of CTE.

- I'm not going to argue CTE with aiming police, respectfully. This post is for those who are using this stuff successfully but can't explain why, or those who are not - but want to.

- I'll only contribute if the tone is friendly and non-condescending, and the topic deals with pivoting. My reason for this is maybe if one topic is discussed at a time, the information won't become diluted and lost in a feeding frenzy.


Consider the following:

f_CTEShotCircm_e963999.jpg


What you see here applies to any shot until the distance between the OB and CB is less than the bridge length. I always shorten my bridge to a distance short than that between the CB and OB when this happens. Technically, a "pivot" isn't required at all - that's another story... you can step into the top of the shot circle from one side of the CTEL.

If you were to rotate the cue in the bridge as a true pivot (once again, pretend a nail is driven through the point where the cue touches the skin and into the slate), the cue would turn around the bridge circle radius. This is why people miss shots completely. You would technically only turn the cue like this on a short shot.

For the "mechanical pivoters" out there, you always place your bridge first. Once you're set in your bridge, the cue is turned along the shot circle arc, in relation to the OB - not "rotated/pivoted" from the bridge (bridge circle arc).

This is just a helpful way to describe what is really happening. This is not a functional way of playing....i.e. no one has to "see" a circle on the table in order to make any shot. This is really a "classroom" style of learning how to pivot (um, turn your cue).

OK - practical application when at the table: You should see the OB as a two-dimensional object on a vertical plane (think of the OB as a sticker on a window when down on your shot). Imagine your cue extending to the window and scrape your tip along it until you hit center ball. That's what I do. I only "see a shot circle" on very close shots - within, say, a foot or so.

Notice the longer the shot is, the bigger the circle--- the flatter the arc (think of the Earth - when you look at the horizon, it's nearly flat). The shorter the shot, the smaller the circle--- the curvier the arc (think of a basketball).

I think the reason why so many people say this is a visual system is because they "pivot to the OB" and make the shot and don't know why.

In conclusion, the "correct" center of the CB is determined by the position of the OB, always.... not by the bridge position/bridge length.

.....

I know this is a controversial subject because of some heated threads in the past... some of which I was contributing to the heat. I honestly didn't feel it was my place to post details, so I didn't. As time goes on and I see more and more players using the info or trying to based on the little tidbits they get, I feel more open to sharing freely.

There are some foreign players who share information freely while Americans rice-bowl and in-fight. If things are friendly, open, inquisitive, and brotherly - I'd like to help. If not, I'll just quit posting because I don't want to fight on here anymore... because it's not worth it to me. This is really for cte people or those interested - not a pro/against cte thread.

Happy Easter everyone - best to you and your families.


PS.

FIRSSSSSSSSSST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Dave,

Good job, and Happy Easter!

This is the sort of information that has been lacking in the past. I look forward to seeing more info like this so the generally-accepted version of the CTE aiming method will become more clear.

Regards,
Dave

The problem is, there is no generally accepted version because nothing is in writing. The shot circle is something I came up with after hundreds of hours of experimenting in an attempt to figure out why balls go with cte.

Everything is based on this circle. If you use the shot circle, the pivot becomes unimportant - you can pivot from either side of the CB (I like the left on all shots) and you can technically come in from either side of the OB (either edge) depending on your sighting perception. I like the outside edge on average, but not always. But, that's all for another thread.
 

woody_968

BRING BACK 14.1
Silver Member
Everything is based on this circle. If you use the shot circle, the pivot becomes unimportant - you can pivot from either side of the CB (I like the left on all shots) and you can technically come in from either side of the OB (either edge) depending on your sighting perception. I like the outside edge on average, but not always. But, that's all for another thread.

Now you have me totally confused :eek: I guess I really didnt understand much about CTE.

I thought the side of the cueball from which you pivot depended on if it was a thin or a thick cut. I guess Ill be waiting for that other thread :thumbup:
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Can you do the same diagram with a pre-pivot and post-pivot cue stick placed on the image?

I would but there are different techniques - and different options. The pre-pivot position almost doesn't matter. I could point the tip at 3rd base or 1st base depending if I'm left of right handed and which OB edge also plays a part as well as which side of the CTEL you're on.

The most important factor is your bridge hand spot placement, which is something Jim Scott figured out a while back. I'm sure he'd love to talk about it...but, um, I think he's perma-banned. Once again, very very very good question - but that's another thread. With the proper bridge hand placement, the pre-pivot doesn't matter (with few exceptions) as long as you pivot along the shot arc.
 
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