Locking the Shoulder?

gordml

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been working on my stance,cueing etc.
I like the style of under most circumstances locking the elbow. that is the elbow not dropping and let the forearm be a pendulum.

One thing that I've also been experimenting with is locking the shoulder.
Done by stretching the shoulder back like a soldier at attention.
That way both the elbow and shoulder feel locked and not moving.

I've never heard discussion of this - just wondering if anyone else does this or if any instructors recommend it?

Thx
 

SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
I've been working on my stance,cueing etc.
I like the style of under most circumstances locking the elbow. that is the elbow not dropping and let the forearm be a pendulum.

One thing that I've also been experimenting with is locking the shoulder.
Done by stretching the shoulder back like a soldier at attention.
That way both the elbow and shoulder feel locked and not moving.

I've never heard discussion of this - just wondering if anyone else does this or if any instructors recommend it?

Thx

I have a few posts on shoulder and chin lock.
Lock your Shoulder.
Lock your chin.
Never lock until your feet are under you and ready to drop.
If you are not set in the proper Ape Index and Body Gait you can lock short or long.
Relaxed eyes.
When done properly its unrecognizable.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Locking" the shoulder, as you describe it, is a very poor habit, regardless of what someone else says. Any kind of tension, be it in the shoulder, the elbow, the wrist, or the grip hand, will take away from being able to use the weight of the cuestick and timing to create the speed of the stroke...which is what you are attempting to develop.

The pendulum swing is a very natural movement, and does not require "locking" anything. Let your shooting hand hang down at your side...move your hand to your shoulder, only moving from the elbow. The swing stops when the biceps and forearm touch. THAT is the pendulum swing...no involvement of the shoulder. Now, if you can resist grabbing the cuestick, you'll have a good stroke, as long as you have a smooth transition from backwards to forwards. At the end of the stroke your tip will be a measured distance past the CB, and your grip hand will be against your pectoral muscle.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
Last edited:

tonythetiger583

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Locking" the shoulder, as you describe it, is a very poor habit, regardless of what someone else says. Any kind of tension, be it in the shoulder, the elbow, the wrist, or the grip hand, will take away from being able to use the weight of the cuestick and timing to create the speed of the stroke...which is what you are attempting to develop.

The pendulum swing is a very natural movement, and does not require "locking" anything. Let your shooting hand hand down at your side...move your hand to your shoulder, only moving from the elbow. The swing stops when the biceps and forearm touch. THAT is the pendulum swing...no involvement of the shoulder. Now, if you can resist grabbing the cuestick, you'll have a good stroke, as long as you have a smooth transition from backwards to forwards. At the end of the stroke your tip will be a measured distance past the CB, and your grip hand will be against your pectoral muscle.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Can you go into more detail of which muscles to use to initialize the forward swing. Especially if you want to incorporate a pause on the backswing?

I'm also having a hard time preventing my arm from chicken-winging. I was hoping locking the shoulder was the answer but it didn't help much, on top of being unnatural.
 

EddieBme

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Locking" the shoulder, as you describe it, is a very poor habit, regardless of what someone else says. Any kind of tension, be it in the shoulder, the elbow, the wrist, or the grip hand, will take away from being able to use the weight of the cuestick and timing to create the speed of the stroke...which is what you are attempting to develop.

The pendulum swing is a very natural movement, and does not require "locking" anything. Let your shooting hand hand down at your side...move your hand to your shoulder, only moving from the elbow. The swing stops when the biceps and forearm touch. THAT is the pendulum swing...no involvement of the shoulder. Now, if you can resist grabbing the cuestick, you'll have a good stroke, as long as you have a smooth transition from backwards to forwards. At the end of the stroke your tip will be a measured distance past the CB, and your grip hand will be against your pectoral muscle.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Hi Scott. When I try to use the pendulum swing, my cue seems to go up and down on practice strokes, what am I doing wrong?
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Triceps pull the cue back, and only the biceps need to be used to swing the cue forward. The elbow need not move up or down at all. If you really wish to fix this, you have one of the best instructors in the country in Battle Creek MI. Contact Lance Cowles, and in one lesson you'll learn how to "fix" anything in your swing, and get a clear picture of your setup and delivery system through an extensive video analysis. He posts here as Bossman69. and is on FB at Cuesports of Battle Creek.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Can you go into more detail of which muscles to use to initialize the forward swing. Especially if you want to incorporate a pause on the backswing?

I'm also having a hard time preventing my arm from chicken-winging. I was hoping locking the shoulder was the answer but it didn't help much, on top of being unnatural.
 

GoldRush cues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Funny this topic popped up. I was just talking to Amar Kang last month, and he was showing me how he "locks his shoulder" in place. It is a little uncomfortable to do at first, but I do see and advantage to it. It's not so much as flexing or locking your shoulder , it's more about not having any movement, side to side, from your shoulder.it will tuck your cue a little bit in your armpit . It will definitely help with alignment in my opinion . Amar said to "lock" your shoulder all the way back( like your trying to push your chest out) this should line your elbow, shoulder , and chin up, over your cue. By pulling your shoulder back like this, it causes your wrist to turn out a little bit out, which helps those players that like to "cup" their wrist inwards. Bad example here , but think about Keith Mcready wrist. No knock on Keith , I love the guy, but I figure everybody has seen him play, so....just my 2 cents worth. It did help me with my alignment .
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
EddieBme...You're doing nothing wrong! Because of how your arm works, the butt of the cue will rise up some on the backswing, go back to level as you strike the CB, and rise up again, as you finish your stroke against your chest. This means your tip should finish on or near the cloth, the end of your stroke. The cuestick only needs to be level at strike (which lasts 1/1000th of a second)...and in a pendulum stroke that's only time it is level.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Hi Scott. When I try to use the pendulum swing, my cue seems to go up and down on practice strokes, what am I doing wrong?
 

gordml

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Locking" the shoulder, as you describe it, is a very poor habit, regardless of what someone else says. Any kind of tension, be it in the shoulder, the elbow, the wrist, or the grip hand, will take away from being able to use the weight of the cuestick and timing to create the speed of the stroke...which is what you are attempting to develop.

The pendulum swing is a very natural movement, and does not require "locking" anything. Let your shooting hand hand down at your side...move your hand to your shoulder, only moving from the elbow. The swing stops when the biceps and forearm touch. THAT is the pendulum swing...no involvement of the shoulder. Now, if you can resist grabbing the cuestick, you'll have a good stroke, as long as you have a smooth transition from backwards to forwards. At the end of the stroke your tip will be a measured distance past the CB, and your grip hand will be against your pectoral muscle.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Ok. Thanks Scott.That explains it
 

SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
Lock and load has been around for a long time,regardless of what someone else may say.
It's also known as going into chamber.
Players of past, present, and future lock up and chamber.
It's barely a flinch,there is no tension.
Its about placement and security, everything moves as free as a bird. If you are not careful you could fly away it feels so good. Freebird plays on the juke box.
Some players don't know they are doing it, that's how subtle it is.
Billiards is not the only sport or eye hand, leg coordination activity that locks and loads, or sets in chamber.

Like the signature says:
You don't know what you don't know until you know it.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lock and load has been around for a long time,regardless of what someone else may say.
It's also known as going into chamber.
Players of past, present, and future lock up and chamber.
It's barely a flinch,there is no tension.
Its about placement and security, everything moves as free as a bird. If you are not careful you could fly away it feels so good. Freebird plays on the juke box.
Some players don't know they are doing it, that's how subtle it is.
Billiards is not the only sport or eye hand, leg coordination activity that locks and loads, or sets in chamber.

Like the signature says:
You don't know what you don't know until you know it.

I can rember and I won't spell this right Fung pang Chow he used to lock his legs stance in like no one I'd ever seen before , think he won one or 2 international winner take all championships , he was a flat out machine

1
 

SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
I can rember and I won't spell this right Fung pang Chow he used to lock his legs stance in like no one I'd ever seen before , think he won one or 2 international winner take all championships , he was a flat out machine

1

Close enough.
Chao Fong Pang, a great player, nice person, very gracious.
Talked with him at Mohegan Sun. My friend speaks Taiwanese so it was good. He made a great jump shot to beat Busty in the final.
He has two WPA World Nine Ball Championships to his credit, also a very strong 8 ball player.

SS
 

Poolhall60561

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joe Davis, the great snooker champion, wrote about Bridge-Arm Tension.
Bridge arm straight and taut and Brace back the shoulder of the cue arm.
You should feel a line of tension running from your bridge hand through your bridge arm, through the shoulders to your cueing elbow.

This is cueing advice for snooker but I always believed Joe’s advice was good for Pool also.
 

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joe Davis, the great snooker champion, wrote about Bridge-Arm Tension.
Bridge arm straight and taut and Brace back the shoulder of the cue arm.
You should feel a line of tension running from your bridge hand through your bridge arm, through the shoulders to your cueing elbow.

This is cueing advice for snooker but I always believed Joe’s advice was good for Pool also.
In snooker it's becoming more rare to see people with a locked bridge arm, especially when you see the younger generations of future pros.

A locked bridge arm suits pool more due to the more side on higher stance being in use much more. In snooker a square stance is quite the norm so it's natural to kink the bridge arm so your torso doesn't end up twisting into an uncomfortable position. Not only this but when you can get the entire forearm onto the table by kinking it it's extremely beneficial you your stability and balance.

In snooker, and pool for that matter movement of the shoulder can be catastrophic to the outcome. The lower down the arm the less catastrophic movement becomes. For example movement in the wrist will likely result in a pot or very close, but movement in the shoulder gets amplified the lower down you go so by the time that movement hits the grip you could have moved the grip hand in any direction twice as much as the shoulder moved.

It is good practise to focus on limiting the shoulder. I don't like the term locking the shoulder as you will get those that misunderstood what you meant and will try to keep the shoulder still by bringing tension into the deltoid. I prefer to use the term pinning the shoulder into place.

If anyone wants to get a feel for what I mean then try to adopt a snooker stance with the chin on the cue and getting nice and low on the shot. Try to raise elbow on the grip side to the same level your head is on whilst the forearm hangs vertical. The amount of stretch in the shoulder is the absolute maximum you want to have. Snooker players such as my self will not feel any stretch in the shoulder doing this as we are used to this.

With a higher stance you can simply try to push the shoulder back a little. This will help to pin the shoulder into position and limit its movement.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been working on my stance,cueing etc.
I like the style of under most circumstances locking the elbow. that is the elbow not dropping and let the forearm be a pendulum.

One thing that I've also been experimenting with is locking the shoulder.
Done by stretching the shoulder back like a soldier at attention.
That way both the elbow and shoulder feel locked and not moving.

I've never heard discussion of this - just wondering if anyone else does this or if any instructors recommend it?

Thx

You can shoot some shots with a totally still body and arm, but not anything that needs a bit of power. I have talked to several pro players about the pros and cons of using a snooker stance for pool or about keeping your elbow totally still, they all have said "sure it's fine but you are not going to get power from the shot without tearing your muscles if you don't move your arm".
 

Brookeland Bill

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been working on my stance,cueing etc.
I like the style of under most circumstances locking the elbow. that is the elbow not dropping and let the forearm be a pendulum.

One thing that I've also been experimenting with is locking the shoulder.
Done by stretching the shoulder back like a soldier at attention.
That way both the elbow and shoulder feel locked and not moving.

I've never heard discussion of this - just wondering if anyone else does this or if any instructors recommend it?

Thx
What are your results in shotmaking and position?
 

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
"Locking" the shoulder, as you describe it, is a very poor habit, regardless of what someone else says. Any kind of tension, be it in the shoulder, the elbow, the wrist, or the grip hand, will take away from being able to use the weight of the cuestick and timing to create the speed of the stroke...which is what you are attempting to develop.

The pendulum swing is a very natural movement, and does not require "locking" anything. Let your shooting hand hand down at your side...move your hand to your shoulder, only moving from the elbow. The swing stops when the biceps and forearm touch. THAT is the pendulum swing...no involvement of the shoulder. Now, if you can resist grabbing the cuestick, you'll have a good stroke, as long as you have a smooth transition from backwards to forwards. At the end of the stroke your tip will be a measured distance past the CB, and your grip hand will be against your pectoral muscle.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

From experience in the past year, I agree with you.

I found a place to lock my shoulder and it worked until.....until my shoulder began to hurt like a mf and then I couldn't hardly shoot at all, much less well.

So, I dumped that move and remedied my shoulder with yoga and have now figured out (again, I suppose:rolleyes:) how to not lock it and still have a consistent stroke.

fwiw,



Jeff Livingston
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joe Davis, the great snooker champion, wrote about Bridge-Arm Tension.
Bridge arm straight and taut and Brace back the shoulder of the cue arm.
You should feel a line of tension running from your bridge hand through your bridge arm, through the shoulders to your cueing elbow.

This is cueing advice for snooker but I always believed Joe’s advice was good for Pool also.

Scott disagrees with most of what Joe and almost all the snooker coaches teach, especially regarding using the body as a guide.
Although it is important to note that Joe had bad vision in his right eye, and as such he was able to bring in the cue closer to his body than some modern snooker players, which you can note by where his cue ran(it touched under his tie), he also advocated much more of a boxer style stance that what is commonly employed by snooker players these days.

Check out some videos of him on youtube, and compare his style with that of a snooker player, make your own conclusion.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just because I may disagree with some snooker ideas doesn't mean I disagree with everything. Stance is personal. The 'squared off' stance may or may not work for most poolplayers. As long as you're not stressing your body, can swing the cue from just the elbow, have a smooth transition from backwards to forwards, and have a natural finish for your tip, that is a measurable distance past the CB, whatever somebody does is fine. The questions concern accuracy and repeatability. The elbow is a hinge that can only open and close in a dead straight line. The shoulder is a ball & socket, making it a 'universal' joint...meaning it can easily steer the cue. Therefore, if your cuestick is moving in towards, or away from your body, as you backswing or forward stroke, it means you're swinging from the shoulder...not just the elbow. Hence the higher probability of small stroke errors, which are compounded by too much grip pressure. When you swing from just the elbow, the range of motion is static, and the only variable that can screw up the shot, is the wrist...which, like the shoulder, is a universal joint. This is why you want your wrist to hang straight down, when the tip is at the CB. Lots of players cock the wrist here, and it leads to a poor transition for most of them, especially when trying for a power stroke.

As noted by others, engaging the shoulder as part of the backswing and/or the forward accelerated stroke is likely dangerous, and produces more stroke errors, than a pendulum stroke, which does not engage the shoulder. It is simply not true that you cannot generate sufficient speed using a pendulum stroke. Many pros don't know what they're talking about when it comes to pool physics...that's a fact! It is fairly easy to produce 22-24 mph break speeds, using nothing more than the weight of the cue, and a perfectly timed throwing motion (and a relaxed grip on the cue).

The point I continue to stress in what I teach, is that the more relaxed and balanced you are, the easier it is to accurately set up and deliver the cuestick..and consequently the easier it becomes to learn to 'feel' the cue, and learn speed and timing. The more tension you insert into any part of your pool game, imo, will likely contribute to more misses and missed position. Professional players, be they pool or snooker, etc. are unique in their individuality. They have learned to do their "thing", their way, perfectly, every time, through years of dedicated shoting. The huge majority of us will never begin to reach that comfort level with our stroke and timing...but it can be taught, and it can be learned by anyone who has the patience to practice good fundamentals. The quick way to that is to get some quality instruction from an instructor who does video analysis.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott disagrees with most of what Joe and almost all the snooker coaches teach, especially regarding using the body as a guide.
Although it is important to note that Joe had bad vision in his right eye, and as such he was able to bring in the cue closer to his body than some modern snooker players, which you can note by where his cue ran(it touched under his tie), he also advocated much more of a boxer style stance that what is commonly employed by snooker players these days.

Check out some videos of him on youtube, and compare his style with that of a snooker player, make your own conclusion.
 
Last edited:
Top