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04-15-2018, 04:28 AM

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Originally Posted by skins View Post
Ok. So lets say you could figure it out. How could that be a positive (now) for most players who play pool when that would mean that the distance from center on the cue ball would drastically decrease for the use of effective "english"?? Which affects throw as well. That would also mean that a player would have to be WAY more precise when hitting the cue ball. Any slight distance from center could drastically affect the shot. Most players aren't ready nor would the recreational player ever be ready for that.

The cue is a freak. If you'd like to study it for it's physics properties to be used in some other way, great! I just think it wouldnt benefit the game.
I was thinking more in terms of the amazing draw that Dean was talking about. Honestly I don't remember what he said about the deflection/squirt properties. I totally get your point, but the nature of research is that you never know what you will find out. For instance, maybe there is a way to achieve the massive draw characteristic while at the same time minimizing whatever is happening with english.

In any case the point is moot. The people who actually played with the cue seem to agree with you!


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04-15-2018, 03:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
I was thinking more in terms of the amazing draw that Dean was talking about. Honestly I don't remember what he said about the deflection/squirt properties. I totally get your point, but the nature of research is that you never know what you will find out. For instance, maybe there is a way to achieve the massive draw characteristic while at the same time minimizing whatever is happening with english.

In any case the point is moot. The people who actually played with the cue seem to agree with you!
To be honest I personally would like to know why it hits that way too just for kicks regardless of what my thoughts are on the subject.


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04-15-2018, 04:01 PM

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Originally Posted by skins View Post
To be honest I personally would like to know why it hits that way too just for kicks regardless of what my thoughts are on the subject.
Agreed. Now go call your buddy Dennis and get ahold of that cue!


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04-16-2018, 11:17 AM

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Originally Posted by skins View Post
Ok. So lets say you could figure it out. How could that be a positive (now) for most players who play pool when that would mean that the distance from center on the cue ball would drastically decrease for the use of effective "english"?? Which affects throw as well. That would also mean that a player would have to be WAY more precise when hitting the cue ball. Any slight distance from center could drastically affect the shot. Most players aren't ready nor would the recreational player ever be ready for that.

The cue is a freak. If you'd like to study it for it's physics properties to be used in some other way, great! I just think it wouldnt benefit the game.

Thats an interesting opinion which I don't quite understand at all. I will accept Deanoc at his word saying the cue was an outlier. It seems baffling to me that people would not want to know what makes the cue draw better than others. There are so many completely non-destructive things that could be done to analyze it.

1. Weight
2. Tip diameter
3. Ferrule length and material
4. Exact taper profile
5. Does another shaft on that same cue produce silly draw or is it shaft related only?

I sought out this thread because I had an interesting experience last night.

I have been searching for "the cue"

In my search, I have realized that I want a cue that is not so overly stiff. I was playing with a Lambros and Olney both which I really like but both are so stiff it is hard (for me at least) to hit finesse draw. So I switched to my Dominiak which is great and much less stiff. But I have read here that Dominiak cues are considered really stiff too.

So last night at league, I was trying to help a mid level player who says he cannot really draw the ball. He said that some 7 made a length of the table shot and drew back the length of the table. Bar box, so thats really not that much draw and in trying to help him learn how to draw he wanted to see if I could do that. I agreed and had to use his cue, which was some production cue with some gerneric LD shaft, not sure what. Anyway I hit the shot and drew almost 2 lengths of the table.

I had actually forgotten what a "whippy" cue was actually like!!

So in my search I am actually looking for fractional differences in stiff not really something that is more whippy.

In terms of this cue though that is relevant because here is a guy that cannot even draw with a cue that for me was freakishly easy to draw with. I assume of all those cues hit the same.

So it would seem to be important to figure out what made this cue a freak?

Was it accidentally very whippy?

Did it flex in an unusual place?

Was it especially light (or heavy) at the tip or maybe the last 6 inches of the shaft had an unusual wight distribution.

It seems wild to me that people would not be powerfully compelled to figure it out.

In terms of helping players, if you can figure out what makes this cue draw so much, then you might be able to use that information to tailor the design of the shaft for exact characteristics for each persons individual stroke.

Say you found that the cue drew so much because it was especially "flexy" at 9" from the tip. Well maybe you can "fit" the flex of a shaft to an individual stroke by adjusting the flex there, sort of like golf fits clubs to individual swings.

A lot of golf technology stems from outlier clubs like this that lead to breakthroughs in club design.

Same could happen here. Sticking it in a case somewhere like a mythical sword just seems especially silly to me.
  
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04-17-2018, 09:13 AM

There's a lot that could be going on. I personally don't believe it, or at least not the way it's being touted. Memory is often fantasticated, especially when supported by others. It's kinda like a past tense version of mass hysteria. I don't doubt that it's a nice cue. I don't doubt the integrity of the people who remember it. What I doubt is the reliance on personal memory rather than tangible evidence. No offense to anybody, but I will not give more credence to somebody's memory than I do my own, and if I cannot trust my own then don't expect me to trust yours.


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04-17-2018, 09:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnysd View Post
Thats an interesting opinion which I don't quite understand at all. I will accept Deanoc at his word saying the cue was an outlier. It seems baffling to me that people would not want to know what makes the cue draw better than others. There are so many completely non-destructive things that could be done to analyze it.

1. Weight
2. Tip diameter
3. Ferrule length and material
4. Exact taper profile
5. Does another shaft on that same cue produce silly draw or is it shaft related only?

I sought out this thread because I had an interesting experience last night.

I have been searching for "the cue"

In my search, I have realized that I want a cue that is not so overly stiff. I was playing with a Lambros and Olney both which I really like but both are so stiff it is hard (for me at least) to hit finesse draw. So I switched to my Dominiak which is great and much less stiff. But I have read here that Dominiak cues are considered really stiff too.

So last night at league, I was trying to help a mid level player who says he cannot really draw the ball. He said that some 7 made a length of the table shot and drew back the length of the table. Bar box, so thats really not that much draw and in trying to help him learn how to draw he wanted to see if I could do that. I agreed and had to use his cue, which was some production cue with some gerneric LD shaft, not sure what. Anyway I hit the shot and drew almost 2 lengths of the table.

I had actually forgotten what a "whippy" cue was actually like!!

So in my search I am actually looking for fractional differences in stiff not really something that is more whippy.

In terms of this cue though that is relevant because here is a guy that cannot even draw with a cue that for me was freakishly easy to draw with. I assume of all those cues hit the same.

So it would seem to be important to figure out what made this cue a freak?

Was it accidentally very whippy?

Did it flex in an unusual place?

Was it especially light (or heavy) at the tip or maybe the last 6 inches of the shaft had an unusual wight distribution.

It seems wild to me that people would not be powerfully compelled to figure it out.

In terms of helping players, if you can figure out what makes this cue draw so much, then you might be able to use that information to tailor the design of the shaft for exact characteristics for each persons individual stroke.

Say you found that the cue drew so much because it was especially "flexy" at 9" from the tip. Well maybe you can "fit" the flex of a shaft to an individual stroke by adjusting the flex there, sort of like golf fits clubs to individual swings.

A lot of golf technology stems from outlier clubs like this that lead to breakthroughs in club design.

Same could happen here. Sticking it in a case somewhere like a mythical sword just seems especially silly to me.
I was reading the cue man's book the other day and came across the story of the cue in question, where Chris said the plastic of the QB material was actually fairly soft, perhaps contributing to a spring-like action.

With your story, it may be that a stiffer-hitting cue has less time in contact with the CB. My imagination of that is as follows:
1. Poor stroke (things like deceleration and not maintaining a straight line through the stroke)
  • Stiff cue - still gets some draw action since the tip remains in contact less time but imparts its force more consistently on the bottom of the cue ball to get backspin
  • Whippy cue - kills the draw because the force is applied inconsistently through the contact with the CB
2. Good stroke
  • Stiff cue - gets draw action but not much more than with a poor stroke since the cue is in contact with the CB for a shorter time span
  • Whippy cue - gets more draw action since the force is applied over a longer period of time to where it needs to go to impart backspin on the cue

Really, it's just speculation. The hypothesis generally fits your data.

All this said, I think first of all cues with identical materials and constructions play differently, thus the natural variation in the properties of the materials must be pretty significant. You could possibly perfect which cue materials and constructions give the most action, but the random variance from 2 pieces of identical species of wood might affect things more.

I also think this kind of speculation (I wouldn't call it analysis, no real data) leads naturally to the conclusion we all draw. There is no best cue. Everyone has a cue that suits them best. If you have an inconsistent stroke, you might be able to get better action with a whippier cue, but your capacity to control it would be terrible. A lot of pros even have very compact strokes that wouldn't be great for imparting action but have a lot of consistency and get more spin when necessary by a higher velocity stroke and/or striking the CB further off-center. For them, maybe a stiffer cue is better because their stroke doesn't get them more action on a whippier cue and a stiffer cue will perform more consistently.

Or maybe it's all mental. We might have an experiential memory of hitting a superb stroke and thus our expectations and sensory feedback will drive our individual performance more than anything actually having to do with the properties of the cue.

But I think that's why we should experiment as players and also for cue builders to find what produces the results they want. But no one can expect to build a cue that best for every player.
  
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04-20-2018, 07:50 AM

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Originally Posted by qbilder View Post
There's a lot that could be going on. I personally don't believe it, or at least not the way it's being touted. Memory is often fantasticated, especially when supported by others. It's kinda like a past tense version of mass hysteria. I don't doubt that it's a nice cue. I don't doubt the integrity of the people who remember it. What I doubt is the reliance on personal memory rather than tangible evidence. No offense to anybody, but I will not give more credence to somebody's memory than I do my own, and if I cannot trust my own then don't expect me to trust yours.
Eric, you can clear your mind up by just calling Denny Glenn. Then you can tell him directly that his recollection and memory are fading and that he and many others that were there must have been suffering from the same mass delusion.


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04-20-2018, 08:10 AM

I don't know Dean, but he seems pretty knowledgeable, and it also seems that he has played with a lot of cues from almost every major cue maker.

If he says there is something special about that cue, there is zero doubt in my mind that it is true to some extent.
  
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04-20-2018, 08:19 AM

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Originally Posted by skins View Post
Eric, you can clear your mind up by just calling Denny Glenn. Then you can tell him directly that his recollection and memory are fading and that he and many others that were there must have been suffering from the same mass delusion.
Like I said, no offense toward anybody, but touting something without substantiating it is as good as telling me Santa Claus was on your roof last Christmas eve. Talk is cheap. When I see the cue, if I see the, I'll be 100% honest about what I experience. Until then it's as good as myth.

edit to add: I'm not calling or thinking of anybody a liar. I'm only pointing out that stories are often much more fantastical than actuality, and this story has all the hallmarks of that. It may be exactly as stated. It may not be. So long as the cue is locked away from the world, we'll never know, hence my doubts.


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04-20-2018, 09:22 AM

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Originally Posted by qbilder View Post
Like I said, no offense toward anybody, but touting something without substantiating it is as good as telling me Santa Claus was on your roof last Christmas eve. Talk is cheap. When I see the cue, if I see the, I'll be 100% honest about what I experience. Until then it's as good as myth.

edit to add: I'm not calling or thinking of anybody a liar. I'm only pointing out that stories are often much more fantastical than actuality, and this story has all the hallmarks of that. It may be exactly as stated. It may not be. So long as the cue is locked away from the world, we'll never know, hence my doubts.
You stated that "memory" is prabably a good part of the issue. I gave you an option to start with. You gotta start somewhere. Hell don't take my word for it. Go ahead and fuel your curiosity. Call Denny and test his memory. Until THEN I'll choose to put these doubts of yours in my lost memory bank.


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04-20-2018, 09:44 AM

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Originally Posted by skins View Post
You stated that "memory" is prabably a good part of the issue. I gave you an option to start with. You gotta start somewhere. Hell don't take my word for it. Go ahead and fuel your curiosity. Call Denny and test his memory. Until THEN I'll choose to put these doubts of yours in my lost memory bank.
I don't know the guy. Not my responsibility to chase it, anyway. It's up to the story teller to prove it. Until then it's just entertainment.


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04-20-2018, 10:13 AM

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I don't know the guy. Not my responsibility to chase it, anyway. It's up to the story teller to prove it. Until then it's just entertainment.
If you're not going to back up your doubts then why come out and say anything then? I mean you could have just said it's hard to believe and left it at that but no you questioned not one but MANY who were there and witnessed the phenmenon as to possible memory loss and/or mass hysteria..lol... There is a "story" from about two thousand years ago that some may take your position on as well but I wouldn't be one of them for either event(s).


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04-20-2018, 10:27 AM

Qbuilder you use CA, others such as wayne have a different take on finishing, neither of you definitely proved your points one way or the other, would you agree? Why should anyone believe what you say, or wayne says other than experience? Have you seen every single cue you have ever made 20 years down the line, I haven't..

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04-20-2018, 01:34 PM

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Originally Posted by skins View Post
If you're not going to back up your doubts then why come out and say anything then? I mean you could have just said it's hard to believe and left it at that but no you questioned not one but MANY who were there and witnessed the phenmenon as to possible memory loss and/or mass hysteria..lol... There is a "story" from about two thousand years ago that some may take your position on as well but I wouldn't be one of them for either event(s).
If you're asking me to take a leap of faith on a pool cue, I'll pass. Not the best of parallels

I didn't mean to offend anybody. I'm no spring chicken & it wouldn't be the first time I have seen such far fetched tales pan out to be less than "as remembered". Last week I went to look at an 87yr old man's barn. I heard from several folks that he had thousands of shafts & loads of ebony from when he used to work in a cue factory. Sure sounded like the find of a lifetime and was corroborated by several pool players, so I went for a look. Not surprising thousands of shafts were a few hundred rejects that had the joint ends cut off to render them useless, and the loads of ebony was a couple buckets of 2" long cut-offs of squares. The only thing I got was a cut from some broken glass. So in the spirit of faith, forgive my lack thereof in mortal men.....especially pool players. No doubt the cue was a nice cue that spun the ball. But to the exaggerated extent being touted? I still lean toward it being less than remembered. Is there a chance I'm wrong? Of course there is. Is there a chance I'm not? I like my odds.


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04-20-2018, 02:32 PM

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Originally Posted by qbilder View Post
thousands of shafts were a few hundred rejects that had the joint ends cut off to render them useless, and the loads of ebony was a couple buckets of 2" long cut-offs of squares. The only thing I got was a cut from some broken glass.
Sorry you got cut on the glass but I didn't want all the scraps I left behind!


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