Fargo Rate compared to chess FIDE rating

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Mike,

I love chess, but I'll never break through to a high level. I'm good enough to have fun, but am unwilling to put in the hard work to get competitive.

That said, I've always admired the grandmasters, and the world champions. Achieving a 2600 rating would be a true accomplishment. Hitting 2800, wow, just wow.

Since I'll never do that in chess, I got to wondering...I wonder how good I am at pool compared to how chess players play chess. I've put in a lot of hard work in my pool game, and while I'm not touring pro strength, I hit them pretty sporty some days. I am curious if I was as good at chess as I was at pool if I would've achieved the 'grandmaster' rating.

So there you have it. Is it possible to look at bell curve distributions or some other type of comparison to equate a fargo rating into an estimated chess rating to compare relative skills across separate arenas?
 

AF pool guy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wikipedia tells me a 2600 should win 1/3 games against a 2800. To have an equal per game chance against SVB you'd need to be Fargo rated above 720. Which would put you in top 85 in the US. Which is about right as there also happen to be about 90 Chess Grandmasters in the US.
 
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pmac666

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
the only question is, if its comparabale...... i doubt magnus carlsen is outside of the top 30 in FIDE like the world 9 ball champ in FARGO!
 
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BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
the only question is, if its comparabale...... i doubt magnus carlsen is outside of the top 30 in FIDE like the world 9 ball champ in FARGO!

Magnus Carlsen has won 3 World Chess Championships plus I'm sure many other major events if they have them.

Albin, who you are obviously alluding to, has only won two notable events in his career.

In case, you haven't figured it out by now (you obviously haven't). Your Fargo Rate goes up or down dependent upon the match, the score, and your opponent's rating. Not which tournaments you've won.

Oh, and by the way, Albin is ranked 30th now.
 

pmac666

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Magnus Carlsen has won 3 World Chess Championships plus I'm sure many other major events if they have them.

Albin, who you are obviously alluding to, has only won two notable events in his career.

In case, you haven't figured it out by now (you obviously haven't). Your Fargo Rate goes up or down dependent upon the match, the score, and your opponent's rating. Not which tournaments you've won.

Oh, and by the way, Albin is ranked 30th now.

wootwoot lol
seriously that post shows your ignorance, european straight pool champ (125 and out in the final), euro tour champ and lets not forget the runner up in doha!
so, what excactly "notebale" have ppl like bergmann, dechaine, efren and busti won last 2-3 yrs? (esp outside of the US lol)
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
wootwoot lol
seriously that post shows your ignorance, european straight pool champ (125 and out in the final), euro tour champ and lets not forget the runner up in doha!
so, what excactly "notebale" have ppl like bergmann, dechaine, efren and busti won last 2-3 yrs? (esp outside of the US lol)

Once again it has nothing to do with what tournaments you win.

Please do try and keep up. Thanks
 

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All I know is that it will be a great day in the history of pocket billiards if the world would adopt a uniform rating system such as Fargo. Fargo is not necessarily the be-all-end-all rating system but I give it my vote. No other pool rating system is as easy only the front end and as mathematically sound at its core.

What we need is a way for the APA to input data into Fargo, and a good reason for them to do so. Clearly they do not need Fargo ratings to drive their Equalizer handicap system, nor should we be pressing them or any other league to use Fargo for league handicaps. But if Mike Page can come up with a way to entice the APA to submit 8-ball and 9-ball data then the whole billiard world will profit. Hopefully Mike can also figure out a way to map APA 9-ball match points to Fargo W/L records.

Suppose the APA abandoned their proprietary handicap system tomorrow and adopted Fargo. Would they suffer financially by doing so? I don't think so. If anything a person's Fargo rating is less easy to manipulate than a person's APA rating.

I may be wrong in my analysis but I'm eager to hear others opinions.
 
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pmac666

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Once again it has nothing to do with what tournaments you win.

Please do try and keep up. Thanks

you mentioned albin only has won 2 notebale tourneys, not me!
and yeah i figured fargo out, and still im not much impressed! and that has nothing to do that i root for albin, hes just the best exemple how well fargo is working when some vets and bartable champs who leave the US only for mosconi are in front of him! aslong as a ranking doesnt involve the situation the player is in, its pretty much worthless! or why do you think you get more points for a grand slam in tennis than in a challenger? the next joke is counting barboxes in a worldwide ranking, you know theres only one country on this ole blue ball of fun where someone plays on those micky mouse tables?
oh well, why im talking...... noone outside the US cares about fargo and you guys over there have a list where you still can admire 3 top 20 players in the world! everything is good LOL
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
noone outside the US cares about fargo and you guys over there have a list where you still can admire 3 top 20 players in the world! everything is good LOL

Well that's obviously false considering you have to chirp in anytime Fargo is mentioned, and always with the same nonsense.

Listen. If you want your idol to have a higher rating, this is what he needs to do. Play more tournaments that have players rated higher than him, and beat those players. Also, he'll need to beat the lower ranked players as well, but make sure it's by a decent margin.

There's a little bit more to it, but that will get him headed in the right direction.
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mike,

I love chess, but I'll never break through to a high level. I'm good enough to have fun, but am unwilling to put in the hard work to get competitive.

That said, I've always admired the grandmasters, and the world champions. Achieving a 2600 rating would be a true accomplishment. Hitting 2800, wow, just wow.

Since I'll never do that in chess, I got to wondering...I wonder how good I am at pool compared to how chess players play chess. I've put in a lot of hard work in my pool game, and while I'm not touring pro strength, I hit them pretty sporty some days. I am curious if I was as good at chess as I was at pool if I would've achieved the 'grandmaster' rating.

So there you have it. Is it possible to look at bell curve distributions or some other type of comparison to equate a fargo rating into an estimated chess rating to compare relative skills across separate arenas?

My guess is you are right about at the grandmaster bubble. Looking at bell curves is awkward because the curves depend so much on the population. For example, if all APA players suddenly had Fargo Ratings, you'd suddenly be another standard deviation or more above the mean.

And chess doesn't have as much of a casual play-a-fun-game-for-a-night-out component, so chess might be more like one-pocket in that regard.

I see there are 1300-1400 chess grand masters in the world

--something like 160 in Russia and 60 in USA

You are #54 USA--and you DID just last week double-dip the guy who got second this summer at the US Open 8-Ball....good job...--. I suspect there may be a few still not on our radar who are above you, but if there are any at all it is at most a few..

In any case, I'd say you are right about there... And between yes and no, I'm going to go with yes, you have achieved the pool grandmaster level...
 

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you really want to kill pool , make an accurate rating system that is used in every tournament and league.
 

pmac666

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well that's obviously false considering you have to chirp in anytime Fargo is mentioned, and always with the same nonsense.

Listen. If you want your idol to have a higher rating, this is what he needs to do. Play more tournaments that have players rated higher than him, and beat those players. Also, he'll need to beat the lower ranked players as well, but make sure it's by a decent margin.

There's a little bit more to it, but that will get him headed in the right direction.

lol my idol......and i give a sh1t about his rating, his "lesser skillset" gives me even more pleasure when he kicks your posterboy in a big final again! as said hes only a very good exemple how good fargo is working!
another question, how many matches or years do you need to play to have a "real" rating? i think 3 years should be enough for a player who competes on the worldstage, right? so, be honest now, how would you rank those following players, especially considering their progress and that half of efrens and bustis money is from challenge games? and i know its about rack difference blablabla and not tourneys, but hey, what else can we use to judge a player, other than fargo?

fargo nr 17

azb busti.PNG

fargo nr 23

azb efren.PNG

fargo nr 30

azb albin.PNG

thats not even close, and i bet with a closer look you´ll find alot of those exemples......
and then theres mosconi, 2 even ranked teams meet every year to play some short races (which can win anyone, right?) with stupid breakrules, also scotch doubles with loud fans around , but one even ranked team just cant cope with that (not even at home lol) and gets whopped year by year by year by year by year by year! that also gives me the hint that the US players might be a bit overrated by fargo, which is not that surprising to me, considering the barboxes and the weaker playing field over there!
guess it could work decent in the US only where the majority plays on barboxes, but worldwide its a joke IMO
over and out
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you really want to kill pool , make an accurate rating system that is used in every tournament and league.

Are you in an area that has an accurate rating system that is used in leagues and tournaments?

Locally, we went from zero weekly tournaments a decade ago to 3 now
There are more league teams than ever before
There are more people matching up
there are more larger tournaments.

And the other areas that have been early adopters seem to be booming as well, though it is hard to tell what drives what.

I'm sure there are some people who are more about gambling than about pool and who have relied on an uncanny skill for getting others into very bad games with a smile on their face who won't welcome this change. But that doesn't mean there will be less action. My experience is there is no shortage of players willing to belly up to the table when they're less afraid of running into the guy I just described. That's right. There is no shortage of players willing to get into games where they are not the favorite so long as they know they can outrun the odds if they have a good day and they are not at a stupid disadvantage.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Tournaments don't matter. Any grandmaster could theoretically win a chess tournament but the difference between a 2500 and a 2700 may be too great to overcome. The ratings are calculated based on performance in games played.

In pool however it is the absolute truth that the best player in the field does not always win the event. Every pool player knows that in addition to world class skills you definitely need some rolls to go your way throughout the event. That is the biggest difference between chess and pool.

The worlds best chess player can win a chess tournament from anywhere on the planet. He can win by speaking the moves into someone's ear who has never played chess before.

But I will never beat any pro at anything even if I had Efren telling me what to shoot. Pool simply has the physical aspect that has to be mastered. It's literally a game of inches where a one inch mistake could be the difference between being world champion and going home broke.
 

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Are you in an area that has an accurate rating system that is used in leagues and tournaments?

Locally, we went from zero weekly tournaments a decade ago to 3 now
There are more league teams than ever before
There are more people matching up
there are more larger tournaments.

And the other areas that have been early adopters seem to be booming as well, though it is hard to tell what drives what.

I'm sure there are some people who are more about gambling than about pool and who have relied on an uncanny skill for getting others into very bad games with a smile on their face who won't welcome this change. But that doesn't mean there will be less action. My experience is there is no shortage of players willing to belly up to the table when they're less afraid of running into the guy I just described. That's right. There is no shortage of players willing to get into games where they are not the favorite so long as they know they can outrun the odds if they have a good day and they are not at a stupid disadvantage.

I have nothing against your rating system or anyone elses, and I probably dislike lock artists even more than you do .
Obviously our experiences are 180 degrees different.
I would think that it might just be a locality thing , but I have been all over the US playing in different rooms over the last 50 years, and I have watched the same vaudeville show in every one of them
It's almost, as if one guy went around the United States, 100 years ago and put down the same hustle in every town.
The local con man, picked up the shtick and it's been passed down all these years.
They sound the same, they look the same, they move the same , it's like watching mindless clones.
The sad part is, too many people think they are the slicks, when in reality they are caricatures with no life, and no future.
But, they are the guys in the pool room day and night waiting to win a few dollars and get to feel like hustlers, the suckers go there to play them , they pay their 10 or 20 dollars to be in the limelight for a few minutes, take those guys out of the equation and you have no pool room, period.
I think that is the way of the future anyway, why put pool tables in a bar. The bar is what makes the money.
One thing we didn't mention is that even with an accurate rating system like Fide or USCF there are still cheaters at all levels of play, any time money is involved there will be lots of cheaters and even when there is no money involved there are plenty. Just go on any chess web site and play , half or more of the players are using a program.
Why, I have not the faintest idea.
 
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jburkm002

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My guess is every league adopted Fargo ratings. Mike Page would be rich. League players would either pay more dues or LO would get less. I have nothing against Fargo. If I wanted to play in a tournament that used Fargo they would have to make up some Fargo rating for me and millions of other players that don't use the system. Like a BCA tournament even though I play BCA weekly. Don't see many leagues just freely giving away players info just so they can create a separate rating system for their players. What if fargo doesn't match the league ratings. Two league players match up with equal league rating but their Fargo rating put them at different levels.

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