Inside English vs Outside English

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You will continue to lose/confuse most posters on this thread, as long as you insist on grouping inside/outside with running/reverse. From what I see, after having yourself posted like 25 of the 99 total responses on this thread (which I started), and yet you are still trying, in vain, to argue your point on this topic.

I agree.

If people haven't figured it out by now, his incessant attempts to inject gobblety-gook into the conversation aren't going to help them.

He will post a 1,000 times or until everyone agrees with him. That is his "style". If he doesn't get an agreement, this thread will have thousands of posts and continue for the next 20 years, or more.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
You will continue to lose/confuse most posters on this thread, as long as you insist on grouping inside/outside with running/reverse. From what I see, after having yourself posted like 25 of the 99 total responses on this thread (which I started), and yet you are still trying, in vain, to argue your point on this topic.

Chris, you can't win here. This guy will argue to his grave same as on the AimingForum. What he's trying to assert is nonsense. I just hope he's not teaching this to others because they will have to be "re-aligned" at some point. Like i said before, in 40yrs of being around the game i've NEVER heard of ONE player describing inside/outside and running/reverse in these terms.

I agree.

If people haven't figured it out by now, his incessant attempts to inject gobblety-gook into the conversation aren't going to help them.

He will post a 1,000 times or until everyone agrees with him. That is his "style". If he doesn't get an agreement, this thread will have thousands of post and continue for the next 20 years, or more.
It's flattering that you're all posting about me - but I bet others are more interested in posts on the topic.

pj <- my "fans"
chgo
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree.

If people haven't figured it out by now, his incessant attempts to inject gobblety-gook into the conversation aren't going to help them.

He will post a 1,000 times or until everyone agrees with him. That is his "style". If he doesn't get an agreement, this thread will have thousands of post and continue for the next 20 years, or more.
Hawaiian Eye & Garczar - Sorry, I didn't realize I was opening a can of worms here by starting this thread. I will vow not to respond any more on this particular thread/topic and hopefully it will eventually go away. Thanks for the heads up.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's flattering that you're all posting about me - but I bet others are more interested in posts on the topic.

pj <- my "fans"
chgo

Maybe it's because you have a habit of making the threads about "you", instead of the subject at hand.

I've only seen a handful of people on here (and you are one of them) that "refuse" to let something die without trying to get the "last" word in.

You've made a quarter of the posts in this thread. When do you think you should stop?
 

Matt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And I still assert that the supposed differences between CB/OB and CB/rail collisions/results are unnecessary and counter-instructive.
This is where I disagree. The differences between a CB/OB and CB/rail collision are significant enough that they do warrant separate terminology.

From a physics perspective, they are about as different as two collisions involving a smooth, rigid sphere on a level playing surface can be: ball to ball collisions approximate elastic collisions between objects of equal mass, conserving kinetic energy and momentum, whereas ball to rail collisions are obviously inelastic due to the rail compression and between objects of (very) unequal masses. Sure, there are still minor effects due to friction and compression between balls, but not of anywhere near the magnitude of those effects off a rail.

More importantly, the application of these collisions to the game of pool are very different, even if you just limit the discussion to the use of spin. I think we can agree that the primary use of CB spin in pool is for playing position off the rails. For that interaction, it makes sense to use terminology that focuses on the effect on the CB: running and reverse/check do exactly that. For CB/OB collisions, the effects of using english aren't really specific to one aspect of the shot; it affects the initial path of the CB, it causes swerve on the CB, it causes/cancels throw/spin on the OB, it may eventually affect the path of the CB off of a rail, etc. Instead of trying to sum this all up in the terminology, we simply describe the spin in terms of the angle between the CB and intended OB directions using the terms inside and outside.

I concede that it would be possible to establish an inside/outside convention to describe the spin relative to contact with a rail, but the reference angle isn't as obvious in that case as it is between two balls. Am I referring to the inside or outside of the angle between the rail and the incoming ball, the angle between the incoming and outgoing ball, or the angle between the outgoing ball and the rail? With running and reverse/check, there is no ambiguity.

Using running/reverse/check to describe the spin of one ball relative to another is actually more precise, but is based around an effect that doesn't really factor into the shot selection. How often are you playing a shot with english for the sole purpose of increasing or decreasing the speed and angle of the CB off of the OB? If at all, I'm sure it's far less often than you are using english to throw the object ball, which, in turn, I'm sure is far less often than you are using english to control the cue ball path off of a rail after OB contact.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Excellent post. That's why the info on the english terminology resource page is "standard" and used in most instructional books, articles, and videos (and by most players describing different types of shots).

Regards,
Dave


This is where I disagree. The differences between a CB/OB and CB/rail collision are significant enough that they do warrant separate terminology.

From a physics perspective, they are about as different as two collisions involving a smooth, rigid sphere on a level playing surface can be: ball to ball collisions approximate elastic collisions between objects of equal mass, conserving kinetic energy and momentum, whereas ball to rail collisions are obviously inelastic due to the rail compression and between objects of (very) unequal masses. Sure, there are still minor effects due to friction and compression between balls, but not of anywhere near the magnitude of those effects off a rail.

More importantly, the application of these collisions to the game of pool are very different, even if you just limit the discussion to the use of spin. I think we can agree that the primary use of CB spin in pool is for playing position off the rails. For that interaction, it makes sense to use terminology that focuses on the effect on the CB: running and reverse/check do exactly that. For CB/OB collisions, the effects of using english aren't really specific to one aspect of the shot; it affects the initial path of the CB, it causes swerve on the CB, it causes/cancels throw/spin on the OB, it may eventually affect the path of the CB off of a rail, etc. Instead of trying to sum this all up in the terminology, we simply describe the spin in terms of the angle between the CB and intended OB directions using the terms inside and outside.

I concede that it would be possible to establish an inside/outside convention to describe the spin relative to contact with a rail, but the reference angle isn't as obvious in that case as it is between two balls. Am I referring to the inside or outside of the angle between the rail and the incoming ball, the angle between the incoming and outgoing ball, or the angle between the outgoing ball and the rail? With running and reverse/check, there is no ambiguity.

Using running/reverse/check to describe the spin of one ball relative to another is actually more precise, but is based around an effect that doesn't really factor into the shot selection. How often are you playing a shot with english for the sole purpose of increasing or decreasing the speed and angle of the CB off of the OB? If at all, I'm sure it's far less often than you are using english to throw the object ball, which, in turn, I'm sure is far less often than you are using english to control the cue ball path off of a rail after OB contact.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Using running/reverse/check to describe the spin of one ball relative to another is actually more precise, but is based around an effect that doesn't really factor into the shot selection.
Yes, the CB/OB running/reverse effects might only rarely be significant to the shot, so they might only rarely be used - but I don't get how they're "incorrect" when that's the case. Maybe the concern is that the terms would be overused?

And, despite your and Dave's well-considered, persuasive and very much appreciated arguments, I still think it's OK (and maybe more instructive) to use inside/outside to describe the direction of ball/rail spin.

But that's (apparently) just me. :)

pj
chgo
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
- inside/reverse = when (or as if) the CB is hit on the same side as the OB or rail it hits

-outside/running = when (or as if) the CB is hit on the opposite side from the OB or rail it hits
Excellent post. That's why the info on the english terminology resource page is "standard" and used in most instructional books, articles, and videos (and by most players describing different types of shots).
I don't think the standard terminology should be scrapped or even changed. I want to apply it more broadly.
But your definitions above are at odds with standard terminology. Inside english (CB-OB) is often running english (CB-cushion), and outside english (CB-OB) is sometimes reverse english (CB-cushion).

Like you, I generally prefer broader definitions, but not when the proposed definitions cause confusion or are inconsistent with standard, generally-accepted, and well-established definitions.

I think this topic has already been beaten to a messy pulp; but if I misrepresented something, please let me know.

Catch you later,
Dave
 
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jackpot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's flattering that you're all posting about me - but I bet others are more interested in posts on the topic.

pj <- my "fans"
chgo

Not me, I'm more interested in posts about you. I think that all the confusion is caused
because no one is stating if they are right or left handed. When a left hander is talking
about inside that would be outside to a right hander, Isn't that right ? I'm not sure about
high or low, but I kind of think they are the same for both right and left handers.
jack
 

RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not me, I'm more interested in posts about you. I think that all the confusion is caused
because no one is stating if they are right or left handed. When a left hander is talking
about inside that would be outside to a right hander, Isn't that right ? I'm not sure about
high or low, but I kind of think they are the same for both right and left handers.
jack

reaction%2Bgif%2Bfirefly%2Bfunny%2Blol%2Bwtf%2Bmeme%2Btrolled.gif
 

pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think that confuses the action (direction of rubbing spin compared to CB direction) with how it's (usually) made to happen (tip position). IMO, it would be at least as clear, and more realistic/educational, to describe the actions/interactions consistently regardless of ball or rail collision.

pj
chgo

Newsflash:

the conversation you are having with yourself is not about
inside vs outside english.

Cornerman freddie has described the phenomenon
clearly, concisely, and correctly.

FWIW - ask any C- or better 3C player, we use inside that
is running all the time. Consider the opening break shot.

Dale
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Newsflash:

the conversation you are having with yourself is not about
inside vs outside english.

Cornerman freddie has described the phenomenon
clearly, concisely, and correctly.

FWIW - ask any C- or better 3C player, we use inside that
is running all the time. Consider the opening break shot.

Dale
Yes, I know inside on the ball can be running on the rail (and vice verse). My question is why can't inside on the ball also be called reverse on the ball and running on the rail also be called outside on the rail?

I know... that's not how it's done.

pj
chgo
 

jsp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My question is why can't inside on the ball also be called reverse on the ball and running on the rail also be called outside on the rail?
For many shots, shooting "inside" on the ball will result in "outside" (your definition) on the rail, and vice versa.

"Shoot the ball with high-inside english and the CB will go three rails for position because of the outside english you put on the CB."

You don't think that's at all confusing?
 

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
Weird science

If you have got past 150 in 14.1 - you have it down to a science. Also ready for formidable interaction. Just make sure theys a ref at the table as I think you earned it. She hit me with technology:)
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
For many shots, shooting "inside" on the ball will result in "outside" (your definition) on the rail, and vice versa.

"Shoot the ball with high-inside english and the CB will go three rails for position because of the outside english you put on the CB."

You don't think that's at all confusing?
That's not how I'd say it. I'd say "put high left on the CB, which is inside/reverse on the OB and outside/running on the rail".

Assuming all that info is needed.

pj
chgo
 
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