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Ratta
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08-29-2017, 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
As sixpack stated, "english" induced. I was specifically referring to throw caused by friction at the point of contact due to being too close to an ob and shooting firm enough to cause a stun shot.

I like using the word PUSH better than throw, because that's really what's happening. English throws the ob left or right off the shot line, but the collision pushes it off the shot line. Oh well, I guess "push" is already defined in the pool dictionary and that settles it.
TAP TAP TAP

Like that description ;-)


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08-29-2017, 10:31 AM

Add a little misalignment to those back cuts with cheap balls and that will do it.

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08-29-2017, 11:08 AM

I'm not convinced that the cheap balls and extra throw are the culprit. The shots from one diamond closer are going in the center as far as I could tell. If it were throw they would have rattled.

Ryan - While watching the video it appeared that you have an inconsistency in your stroke. I don't know if it's that you're nervous from the distance or something else at play. Your head seemed to move more on the shots you made than the shots you missed.

Which tells me that you were probably trying harder on the shots you missed.

One thing I've learned in accuracy sports like golf and pool is that if you try harder and do worse there is an inconsistency between your mental image of what you think you are or should be doing and what you are actually doing.

The more you focus on what you think you should be doing, the less you compensate for what you are actually doing and the worse you hit the ball.

John probably nailed it with the stance. It might be that your stance is not exactly correct and you have to move your head to get the cue on the right line. When you concentrate on keeping your head down, your stance doesn't allow you to get the cue on line properly. It looked like you didn't *quite* hit the center of the cueball on the shots you missed.

I recommend doing the stroke test as follows: Put the CB on the spot. Put a piece of chalk on top of the rail in the exact center of the opposite end rail (On the brunswick 's' in the label) on an angle so that the corner of the chalk is exactly in the center and makes a point towards you.

Then shoot the cb at the point of the chalk and see what happens. If the CB hits the spot on the rail directly in line with the chalk and comes back to the spot then your stroke is fine. If the CB hits the spot and turns one way or the other you are applying unintentional english. If you miss the spot your stroke is crooked.

If your stroke is crooked start with your stance and then try the drill again. IF you are still not hitting the cb straight make sure that your cue stick is aligned so that it's directly over the middle diamond on the rail and when you stroke you keep it over that middle diamond. It will probably feel a little weird. But work with it until you can keep your cue on that line and hit the point of the chalk and remember that feeling. That's your 'straight' stroke. If this is the issue, start every practice session by dialing in your straight stroke first. If you are practicing or playing and you start missing balls to the same side like you are here, go back to your straight stroke and make yourself feel it.


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08-29-2017, 02:31 PM

@ Ryan:

I know you are getting a lot things thrown at you, and I'm going to suggest another one. Simplify the shot by setting up a known 1/2 ball hit. Put the cue ball on the head spot and the ob in the exact center of the table. Use a string to find the exact center and put a hole reinforcer there. Poolology tells us that this is a 1/2 ball hit for sure. Try the shot in both directions and see what happens. Use this information to make your next step.

My opinion is that shooting the ball up and down the table will not necessarily reveal the problem. I can shoot up and back perfectly, but if I am cutting a ball like a 1/2 ball hit, I still might not stroke straight. I learned that I had a tendency to steer the cue tip towards the object ball during the stroke when aiming at 1/2 ball. I think it might have something to do with wanting to stroke the cue towards an object (the ball) rather than into thin air or the edge of the ball. So on straight shots you might shoot straight and on cut shots you might not.


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08-29-2017, 03:52 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanshea View Post
John you're right I was not finding my shot line before getting down on the shot on that video. I am also short-stroking and hitting a bit light trying to reduce variables. The results are consistent whether I am headed toward the left or right corner, so at least whatever I am doing is symmetrical.

Dan, for the donuts I could go take a picture, but I put those down pretty carefully while looking at the book. I would say that spotting the alignment line probably has larger error bars than my donut placement.
I think you solved the problem when you mentioned the increasing distance vs precision factor. From the first 3 diamonds out you might be hitting it a little fat also, but the allowable margin of error is several degrees from one diamond out to only about 2 from 4 diamonds out. You really have to be accurate at nailing that aim point when the OB is more than 3 or 4 feet from the pocket. The basic quarter aim points are each separated by 15, which means being off (left or right) by 1/8 will send the ob 7.5 off target. If you're off by 1/16 on your aim, like aiming for a 1/2 ball but really hitting just a sixteenth thicker than a 1/2 ball, you'll be off by more than 3 degrees. From 2 feet out, you can be off this much and still pocket the ball. Even from 3 feet it might rattle in every time. But from 4 or 5 feet, probably not.

Keep in mind that the goal of this system is to help you develop a feel for cut shots. So if you find yourself consistently hitting a certain angle too fat, you may have to tweak it some with spin or aiming a touch thinner. Another player may find that he it's this same shot too thin, and he'll have to develop his own feel for making that particular shot work. I suppose it's a difference in visual alignment. I did not take this visual aspect into mind when I came up with system, and I own up to that. Basically, I decided if it worked for me then it should work for anyone. And for most it does.

That's the best advice I can give you. You might find that your stroke is a little off, or the texture of the balls is causing an extra amount of throw to occur. If it's the stroke you'll eventually figure it out. If it's the balls, an extra degree or two of throw from a shot close to the pocket wouldn't be as obvious compared to a shot from a greater distance. You might just need to incorporate a little outside spin (just a 1/2 tip or less) to get the shot working.


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Last edited by BC21; 08-29-2017 at 03:55 PM.
  
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08-30-2017, 12:18 AM

Thanks for all the feedback. I spent a bunch more time today and have been getting better results (although still fat). I think the problem is my lying eyes. I agree that it is important to be visually aligning my shots as that will lead my stance and get me on the right line, which I was/am not doing well. An interesting bit is that I took 7 or 8 balls and shot them with a very upright stance and they were going in (mostly), but as conspicuous as a half-ball hit is supposed to be - when my chin is down it looks to my brain like even the 3/8 hits are fat.

My stroke isn't perfect, no. For these shots I was very conservative eliminating variables with a poke-stroke and believe I was hitting center ball, a tip or so high. I don't know what to say about the balls, they seem to be lovely to me and they are relatively recently polished. My challenges were the same on three different sets of balls in different places, so I'm going with my brain as the larger challenge than any small frictional difference between balls.
  
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09-16-2017, 09:13 PM

This clip should help with fine tuning your fractional aim. Figuring the fractional aim point mathematically is usually not necessary. Instead, use simple visual references, comparing basic aim points with the exact shot setup you have. Like so......

https://youtu.be/KE0C_q2Y0ic


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09-17-2017, 02:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
This clip should help with fine tuning your fractional aim. Figuring the fractional aim point mathematically is usually not necessary. Instead, use simple visual references, comparing basic aim points with the exact shot setup you have. Like so......

https://youtu.be/KE0C_q2Y0ic
Simple to learn and deadly accurate. What more do you need for learning how to aim?

One question though: What do I do if I don't have three cue balls?


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09-17-2017, 04:52 AM

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09-17-2017, 12:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Simple to learn and deadly accurate. What more do you need for learning how to aim?

One question though: What do I do if I don't have three cue balls?
Lol. I think every player should carry extra cue balls in their case! (Just kidding). Here's another clip using the shaft instead of extra CBs.....

https://youtu.be/SRqW5b9n6Oo


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09-17-2017, 02:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
Lol. I think every player should carry extra cue balls in their case! (Just kidding). Here's another clip using the shaft instead of extra CBs.....

https://youtu.be/SRqW5b9n6Oo
Nice! I've got a question I like to ask good shooters: Every pro I have heard from says to put a touch of helping english on the cue ball for every cut shot, like as little as 1/10th of a tip. This keeps the ob from skidding along before achieving natural roll toward the pocket. On the other hand, many instructors say NOT to do this, and to use only the vertical axis for cut shots. What do you do?


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09-17-2017, 04:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Nice! I've got a question I like to ask good shooters: Every pro I have heard from says to put a touch of helping english on the cue ball for every cut shot, like as little as 1/10th of a tip. This keeps the ob from skidding along before achieving natural roll toward the pocket. On the other hand, many instructors say NOT to do this, and to use only the vertical axis for cut shots. What do you do?
I naturally account for a normal amount of throw by aiming a touch thinner on cut shots between about a half ball and a 3/4 ball thick. It wasn't until I came up with Poolology that I realized I was doing this. And so I figured this natural way of dealing with CIT into certain alignment values for the system, which means a typical amount if throw is automatically accounted for in the same manner as I naturally do it -- slight overcuts on certain angles. The only time I use a touch of outside/helping spin is when I expect more throw than usual, like a stun shot or slow speed on thinner cuts, etc...


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09-17-2017, 07:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
I naturally account for a normal amount of throw by aiming a touch thinner on cut shots between about a half ball and a 3/4 ball thick. It wasn't until I came up with Poolology that I realized I was doing this. And so I figured this natural way of dealing with CIT into certain alignment values for the system, which means a typical amount if throw is automatically accounted for in the same manner as I naturally do it -- slight overcuts on certain angles. The only time I use a touch of outside/helping spin is when I expect more throw than usual, like a stun shot or slow speed on thinner cuts, etc...
I'll put you down as a "no." I play the same way, but I have to say the helping english is creeping in here and there. Two reasons: 1) Two HOF straight pool players personally told me this was very important to do and the best way to play, and 2) You really can see a striped ball slide for 6 inches or so before rolling if you pay quick attention, vs with a smidge of outside the ob rolls more cleanly right after the collision.


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09-17-2017, 09:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
I'll put you down as a "no." I play the same way, but I have to say the helping english is creeping in here and there. Two reasons: 1) Two HOF straight pool players personally told me this was very important to do and the best way to play, and 2) You really can see a striped ball slide for 6 inches or so before rolling if you pay quick attention, vs with a smidge of outside the ob rolls more cleanly right after the collision.
Back when I played bars, almost every shot needed outside spin due to the dull/rough texture of the balls.


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