Bad hit?

Good hit.


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To me, that is a good hit.
If he had made it of the 2, the two would have taken most of the energy and would be gone long before the white ball. Btw. I think the layout doesn't provide the "of the two shot".

The white makes contact with the 11 and takes the "usual path" (approx. 30° from its original path) and pushes the 2 ball forward.

The stripe went clean without touching the 2.

Is that stripe the 11 ball or the 10 ball? Can't tell for sure but I will go ahead and call it the 11 ball as well to avoid confusion. It is a good it. If he hits the 11 ball first, the tangent line off the 11 is pointing at the 2, so the cue ball will end up following in the direction of the 2. If he were to hit the 2 ball first, the tangent line off the 2 ball is pointing more or less at the 11 ball, so the cue ball would follow in the general direction of the 11. The hit looked good to me, and the fact that the cue ball goes in the general direction of the 2 pretty much takes away any doubt about which was hit first.

Also, the 11 was past the 2 ball and does not go of the 2 ball or make any contact with the 2 ball at all. Good clean legal hit.

Poolplaya9 said:

Is that stripe the 11 ball or the 10 ball? Can't tell for sure but I will go ahead and call it the 11 ball as well to avoid confusion. It is a good it. If he hits the 11 ball first, the tangent line off the 11 is pointing at the 2, so the cue ball will end up following in the direction of the 2. If he were to hit the 2 ball first, the tangent line off the 2 ball is pointing more or less at the 11 ball, so the cue ball would follow in the general direction of the 11. The hit looked good to me, and the fact that the cue ball goes in the general direction of the 2 pretty much takes away any doubt about which was hit first.

Also, the 11 was past the 2 ball and does not go of the 2 ball or make any contact with the 2 ball at all. Good clean legal hit.

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What he said. The tangent line never lies.

what's the deal with the radiators and two-person roller coaster seats?

Who knew Hendry could speak Mandarin?

Potts also put left english on the shot so he could hit thick.

I watched it in slow motion...... Clearly hit the 11 ball first..

Poolplaya9 said:

If he hits the 11 ball first, the tangent line off the 11 is pointing at the 2, so the cue ball will end up following in the direction of the 2. If he were to hit the 2 ball first, the tangent line off the 2 ball is pointing more or less at the 11 ball, so the cue ball would follow in the general direction of the 11. The hit looked good to me, and the fact that the cue ball goes in the general direction of the 2 pretty much takes away any doubt about which was hit first..

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Your reasoning about tangent lines is exactly why it was a BAD hit.
The cueball obviously hit the stripe SECOND and followed that tangent line.
If a cueball hits an object ball full with follow, as you suppose in your argument, then the cueball follows much more slowly and there is a big gap between them. In this case, the cueball followed very closely to the object ball (2 ball) and at near the same speed.

If it was a good hit, the cuball would have followed the stripe ball more, having come off the right side of the 2 ball last

JohnnyOzone said:

Your reasoning about tangent lines is exactly why it was a BAD hit.
The cueball obviously hit the stripe SECOND and followed that tangent line.
If a cueball hits an object ball full with follow, as you suppose in your argument, then the cueball follows much more slowly and there is a big gap between them. In this case, the cueball followed very closely to the object ball (2 ball) and at near the same speed.

If it was a good hit, the cuball would have followed the stripe ball more, having come off the right side of the 2 ball last

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Try doing what Bob Jewett suggested in post #6, then see what you think. I do see a slight "turn" on the 2-ball at just about the moment of collision, but the other ball certainly moves a lot before the 2-ball does.

mikewhy said:

https://youtu.be/eKzsD5tNdC8

At 11:10, Gareth Potts seems to hit his 11 ball off his opponents 2 ball. The cue takes off on the 11's tangent, following closely behind and near co-speed with the 2. This seems to me to unquestionably a bad hit, yet the ref and Albin both didn't call it. Can someone explain if I'm mistaken?

Mike.

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I believe it was the 14 ball he was shooting. In any case, the events you describe are exactly what would happen if he cleanly pocketed the 14. The tangent line goes directly into the 2, which is why the cueball proceeds in that direction. Had the 2 been hit first, the cueball would have tracked to the right.

This seems unquestionably a good hit. I believe your reasoning is flawed.

KMRUNOUT

JohnnyOzone said:

Your reasoning about tangent lines is exactly why it was a BAD hit.
The cueball obviously hit the stripe SECOND and followed that tangent line.
If a cueball hits an object ball full with follow, as you suppose in your argument, then the cueball follows much more slowly and there is a big gap between them. In this case, the cueball followed very closely to the object ball (2 ball) and at near the same speed.

If it was a good hit, the cuball would have followed the stripe ball more, having come off the right side of the 2 ball last

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I recommend reviewing the way the balls behave with respect to tangent lines. This is a cut shot. At the speed he shot it, if the 2 were not there the cueball would have easily had enough speed to go 2 rails out of the corner and back to center table. However, square in the path of the cueball was the 2 ball, which the cueball hit very full. It pushed the two ball forward, and the cueballs own forward roll caused it to roll forward slowly. The results are *exactly* what would be correctly predicted if the cueball hit the 14 first. I think the "at near the same speed" is tripping you up here.

KMRUNOUT

Good hit and nice shot. Nothing to see here.

JohnnyOzone said:

Your reasoning about tangent lines is exactly why it was a BAD hit.
The cueball obviously hit the stripe SECOND and followed that tangent line.
If a cueball hits an object ball full with follow, as you suppose in your argument, then the cueball follows much more slowly and there is a big gap between them. In this case, the cueball followed very closely to the object ball (2 ball) and at near the same speed.

If it was a good hit, the cuball would have followed the stripe ball more, having come off the right side of the 2 ball last

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It appears that you just aren't seeing the tangent lines properly. If the 11 was hit first, the tangent line is pointing to the left to an almost a full ball hit on the 2 ball in which case the cue ball would have to go to the left in near the same path as the two ball, which is precisely what we see happen. Had the 2 ball been hit first, the tangent line is pointing to the right to a nearly full hit on the 11 ball in which case the cue ball would have to follow in the general direction of the 11 ball or even further to the right even more towards the right side rail and this is a totally different direction that is not even remotely close (and is in fact opposite) to what we see happen.

I also think you may be letting the fact that the cue is following behind the 2 a little more closely than you would have expected also be part of what is tripping you up but what you have to keep in mind is that clearly the direction of the cue balls travel is significantly more important and telling than a slight difference in the speed you were expecting. In one case the cue ball would have to go left, and in one case the cue ball would have to go right, and since the two different hits would have to send the cue ball in such different and opposite directions it pretty much becomes impossible to mistake which ball was hit first since the resulting cue balls paths would be so different and opposite. KMRUNOUT also perfectly described the same thing in a slightly different way below.

KMRUNOUT said:

I recommend reviewing the way the balls behave with respect to tangent lines. This is a cut shot. At the speed he shot it, if the 2 were not there the cueball would have easily had enough speed to go 2 rails out of the corner and back to center table. However, square in the path of the cueball was the 2 ball, which the cueball hit very full. It pushed the two ball forward, and the cueballs own forward roll caused it to roll forward slowly. The results are *exactly* what would be correctly predicted if the cueball hit the 14 first. I think the "at near the same speed" is tripping you up here.

KMRUNOUT

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mikewhy said:

Good discussion. Thanks. It threw me that the cue ball followed pretty close to the stripe's tangent line if it had been sitting alone. However, the stripe was to the right of the suspected obstacle ball. This is where I went wrong and concluded wrongly. If there had been contact with an obstacle ball to the left, the cue would then be traveling to the right, to make the shot. The cue would then have rolled toward the right side rail, the opposite tangent. This is clearly not what happened. It was a good, clean shot.

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You have to be very careful to not just follow the tangent line from the 2 to the 11, but also the tangent line the cue ball will then take off of the 11 ball as well. If the cue ball hit the 2 ball first, and hen hit the inside (left) side of the 11, it could in fact then go to the left. But clearly in this case with the way the balls lay it would be impossible for the cue ball to hit the inside (left) side of the 11 after coming off of the two. At best it would be a dead full hit on the 11 ball which would put it following exactly behind the 11 in the same path as the 11, and at worst it would be hitting slightly outside (right of center) of the 11 ball which would put the cue ball heading even more toward the right side rail, but it can never hit the left side of the 11 ball to where it would head left (unless you hit the two ball nearly full in which case the foul would have been super obvious to the eye) so if the cue ball heads left you know that it has to be because it hit the 11 first and then went into the 2.