mike page : preliminary observations about fargo rate.

L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have only played 2 weeks in usapl so far and realize handicaps can swing quite a ways in either direction until you get established . You said you were curious on what my thoughts would be compared to other leagues so here goes.

Again ...just preliminary observations. I am an apa 5/6 ..whoa ...i just recalled I was lowered to a 5 again in 9 ball. I received a starter rating of 460. I lost my first match to a 425 . This was in 8 ball. Dont recall the exact score but i think it was 56-30 in a 49-43 race with me going to 49. I have never seen my opponent before so I dont have an idea how he plays except to say he shot a whole lot better than I did in this match. Truth be told I was off from my usual self due to a hard day at work that day. no excuse..i just played sub par and my opponent played pretty dang good.

This past week I noticed I was dropped to a 458. No big deal. I faced a 423 in 8 ball in a 49 to 43 race. I won 56-21. I won every rack ...what they call a win zip.

I faced the same guy in 9 ball in the same 49-43 race. My first 9 ball match in usapl. I won 56-42. He only needed 1 point to win. Sounds like a real close match by let me give you the details of how it went.

He won the flip and promptly made a 9 on the break for a 14-0 score. 2nd rack he breaks dry and i pocket the 1 going 2 rails to get on the 2 down table and I scratch. He makes a 2 -9 combo to go up 28-1 after 2 racks. I get my act together starting the 3rd rack and score 55 to his 14 to win 56-42.

So after holding my opponent to half his required points needed to win in 8 ball with me winning every rack and outscoring him 55-14 in 9 ball after he makes a 9 on the break and an early 9 combo I look up my handicap last night. Kinda surprised I dropped down to a 443 after those 2 wins lol.

Without a doubt in my mind I would have went back up to a 6 this week if that usapl 9 ball match would have been played under the apa handicapping system.

Soy preliminary thoughts are Fargo rate places more emphasis on the quality of your opponent during wins and losses and spa places emphasis on how you win regardless of the quality of your opponent. I have mentioned before that apa should take into consideration the level of your opponent when determining your handicap.

Btw my opponent in these 2 matches is an apa 4/4.

Now my next opinion is concerning usapl itself. I really dont like my opponent or myself for that matter receiving points for balls they legally did not pocket. Just cant wrap my head around that but otherwise I really like the league.

We play again tonight and will keep you updated on my thoughts when I get more matches in the system.
 
K

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lorider said:
I have only played 2 weeks in usapl so far and realize handicaps can swing quite a ways in either direction until you get established . You said you were curious on what my thoughts would be compared to other leagues so here goes.

Again ...just preliminary observations. I am an apa 5/6 ..whoa ...i just recalled I was lowered to a 5 again in 9 ball. I received a starter rating of 460. I lost my first match to a 425 . This was in 8 ball. Dont recall the exact score but i think it was 56-30 in a 49-43 race with me going to 49. I have never seen my opponent before so I dont have an idea how he plays except to say he shot a whole lot better than I did in this match. Truth be told I was off from my usual self due to a hard day at work that day. no excuse..i just played sub par and my opponent played pretty dang good.

This past week I noticed I was dropped to a 458. No big deal. I faced a 423 in 8 ball in a 49 to 43 race. I won 56-21. I won every rack ...what they call a win zip.

I faced the same guy in 9 ball in the same 49-43 race. My first 9 ball match in usapl. I won 56-42. He only needed 1 point to win. Sounds like a real close match by let me give you the details of how it went.

He won the flip and promptly made a 9 on the break for a 14-0 score. 2nd rack he breaks dry and i pocket the 1 going 2 rails to get on the 2 down table and I scratch. He makes a 2 -9 combo to go up 28-1 after 2 racks. I get my act together starting the 3rd rack and score 55 to his 14 to win 56-42.

So after holding my opponent to half his required points needed to win in 8 ball with me winning every rack and outscoring him 55-14 in 9 ball after he makes a 9 on the break and an early 9 combo I look up my handicap last night. Kinda surprised I dropped down to a 443 after those 2 wins lol.

Without a doubt in my mind I would have went back up to a 6 this week if that usapl 9 ball match would have been played under the apa handicapping system.

Soy preliminary thoughts are Fargo rate places more emphasis on the quality of your opponent during wins and losses and spa places emphasis on how you win regardless of the quality of your opponent. I have mentioned before that apa should take into consideration the level of your opponent when determining your handicap.

Btw my opponent in these 2 matches is an apa 4/4.

Now my next opinion is concerning usapl itself. I really dont like my opponent or myself for that matter receiving points for balls they legally did not pocket. Just cant wrap my head around that but otherwise I really like the league.

We play again tonight and will keep you updated on my thoughts when I get more matches in the system.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing. I've never played USAPL but am somewhat familiar with the system. To be honest, I think you drew the wrong conclusion about the two leagues. I know for certain that Fargorate accounts for the quality of your opponent. I know that APA does not. APA accounts for your *performance*, in terms of innings per game for 8 ball and balls per inning in 9 ball. I do not know how USAPL does it. I know they use Fargorate for handicaps now, but it may be the case that their handicapping system is separate and just feeds into the Fargo system. I do know for certain that the way you described the 9 ball match is completely irrelevant to APA system. Honestly, in APA you could take a million innings to pocket 1 ball, then run a 6 pack, and you get scored as the lowest lol. (To be fair break and runs may matter as a trigger to review scores, but do not calculate into the handicap). What I'm saying is that although you "have no doubt" that you would have gone up in APA as a result of narrowly beating your opponent (because you believe the specifics of the way the match unfolded would somehow matter), I think you are mistaken in that assumption. However, if in the second half of that match you shut your opponent down by playing turning the table over to him every time with a safe instead of a miss, then that most certainly would impact your skill level. (Because all those safeties would reduce your innings, and thus increase your balls per inning, which is the *only* determining factor of your skill level in APA 9 ball)

Please do update. I'd be happy to hear more. I personally do not like *any* 8 ball system that uses ball count. It makes some sense in 9 ball, in that both players share the goal at all times of progressing through the rack and it is almost always an advantage to make every single ball in any 9 ball format. However, this is not at all the case in 8 ball. In many cases, running off your balls and leaving a problem til the end is the exact opposite of the proper way to play 8 ball. You essentially are getting credit for playing stupid lol.

Thanks for sharing your experience!!

KMRUNOUT
 
philly

philly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lorider said:
I have only played 2 weeks in usapl so far and realize handicaps can swing quite a ways in either direction until you get established . You said you were curious on what my thoughts would be compared to other leagues so here goes.

Again ...just preliminary observations. I am an apa 5/6 ..whoa ...i just recalled I was lowered to a 5 again in 9 ball. I received a starter rating of 460. I lost my first match to a 425 . This was in 8 ball. Dont recall the exact score but i think it was 56-30 in a 49-43 race with me going to 49. I have never seen my opponent before so I dont have an idea how he plays except to say he shot a whole lot better than I did in this match. Truth be told I was off from my usual self due to a hard day at work that day. no excuse..i just played sub par and my opponent played pretty dang good.

This past week I noticed I was dropped to a 458. No big deal. I faced a 423 in 8 ball in a 49 to 43 race. I won 56-21. I won every rack ...what they call a win zip.

I faced the same guy in 9 ball in the same 49-43 race. My first 9 ball match in usapl. I won 56-42. He only needed 1 point to win. Sounds like a real close match by let me give you the details of how it went.

He won the flip and promptly made a 9 on the break for a 14-0 score. 2nd rack he breaks dry and i pocket the 1 going 2 rails to get on the 2 down table and I scratch. He makes a 2 -9 combo to go up 28-1 after 2 racks. I get my act together starting the 3rd rack and score 55 to his 14 to win 56-42.

So after holding my opponent to half his required points needed to win in 8 ball with me winning every rack and outscoring him 55-14 in 9 ball after he makes a 9 on the break and an early 9 combo I look up my handicap last night. Kinda surprised I dropped down to a 443 after those 2 wins lol.

Without a doubt in my mind I would have went back up to a 6 this week if that usapl 9 ball match would have been played under the apa handicapping system.

Soy preliminary thoughts are Fargo rate places more emphasis on the quality of your opponent during wins and losses and spa places emphasis on how you win regardless of the quality of your opponent. I have mentioned before that apa should take into consideration the level of your opponent when determining your handicap.

Btw my opponent in these 2 matches is an apa 4/4.

Now my next opinion is concerning usapl itself. I really dont like my opponent or myself for that matter receiving points for balls they legally did not pocket. Just cant wrap my head around that but otherwise I really like the league.

We play again tonight and will keep you updated on my thoughts when I get more matches in the system.
Click to expand...

I have been playing some tournaments that use Fargorate and I have an established rating based on over 400 racks. You are correct in that the rating of your opponent has something to do with whether your rating rises or drops.

I think that's the idea of the system, to establish a fair match. The tournament director can put your name or current rating into the system and it will determine for him the race and if you play even or who gets games on the wire. My TO uses the Fargorate charts.

On the website for Fargorate you can list favorites (players) and it will store them for you. Based on my own favorites list it seems to be spot on in that I can see the rationale of their rating because I play these guys all of the time in tourneys and know their speed.

http://www.fargorate.com/
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lorider said:
I have only played 2 weeks in usapl so far and realize handicaps can swing quite a ways in either direction until you get established . You said you were curious on what my thoughts would be compared to other leagues so here goes.

Again ...just preliminary observations. I am an apa 5/6 ..whoa ...i just recalled I was lowered to a 5 again in 9 ball. I received a starter rating of 460. I lost my first match to a 425 . This was in 8 ball. Dont recall the exact score but i think it was 56-30 in a 49-43 race with me going to 49. I have never seen my opponent before so I dont have an idea how he plays except to say he shot a whole lot better than I did in this match. Truth be told I was off from my usual self due to a hard day at work that day. no excuse..i just played sub par and my opponent played pretty dang good.

This past week I noticed I was dropped to a 458. No big deal. I faced a 423 in 8 ball in a 49 to 43 race. I won 56-21. I won every rack ...what they call a win zip.

I faced the same guy in 9 ball in the same 49-43 race. My first 9 ball match in usapl. I won 56-42. He only needed 1 point to win. Sounds like a real close match by let me give you the details of how it went.

He won the flip and promptly made a 9 on the break for a 14-0 score. 2nd rack he breaks dry and i pocket the 1 going 2 rails to get on the 2 down table and I scratch. He makes a 2 -9 combo to go up 28-1 after 2 racks. I get my act together starting the 3rd rack and score 55 to his 14 to win 56-42.

So after holding my opponent to half his required points needed to win in 8 ball with me winning every rack and outscoring him 55-14 in 9 ball after he makes a 9 on the break and an early 9 combo I look up my handicap last night. Kinda surprised I dropped down to a 443 after those 2 wins lol.

Without a doubt in my mind I would have went back up to a 6 this week if that usapl 9 ball match would have been played under the apa handicapping system.

Soy preliminary thoughts are Fargo rate places more emphasis on the quality of your opponent during wins and losses and spa places emphasis on how you win regardless of the quality of your opponent. I have mentioned before that apa should take into consideration the level of your opponent when determining your handicap.

Btw my opponent in these 2 matches is an apa 4/4.

Now my next opinion is concerning usapl itself. I really dont like my opponent or myself for that matter receiving points for balls they legally did not pocket. Just cant wrap my head around that but otherwise I really like the league.

We play again tonight and will keep you updated on my thoughts when I get more matches in the system.
Click to expand...

A WinZip in USAPL is when you win a rack with the opponent getting no points, not winning every rack. I don't think they have a term for that aside from "Nice Shooting" LOL. There is a Table Run when you run out at your first turn on the table when you don't break, and a Break and Run, which I doubt needs explaining. To get a Table Run you need to have run out a certain number of balls, I think 5. You don't get a Table Run if your opponent breaks dry and you run 3 then make a 4-9 combo, but you do get a WinZip then.

In my local USAPL league, the 9 does not count on the break, and you have to call the 9, no crap with a win because the rack was off, which happens when you play on worse than ideal equipment.

Keep in mind that the rating range in Fargo is huge, you are not playing as a 5 or a 6, you are moving up and down 10,20,30 points, but those points are not even 10% of your rating. If you went from a 5 to a 6, that is like a 20% increase. In USAPL you went from a 460 to a 443, but that is about 4%, which is really nothing much. You may end up with an extra few points from your opponents.
 
Last edited:
L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
KMRUNOUT said:
Thanks for sharing. I've never played USAPL but am somewhat familiar with the system. To be honest, I think you drew the wrong conclusion about the two leagues. I know for certain that Fargorate accounts for the quality of your opponent. I know that APA does not. APA accounts for your *performance*, in terms of innings per game for 8 ball and balls per inning in 9 ball. I do not know how USAPL does it. I know they use Fargorate for handicaps now, but it may be the case that their handicapping system is separate and just feeds into the Fargo system. I do know for certain that the way you described the 9 ball match is completely irrelevant to APA system. Honestly, in APA you could take a million innings to pocket 1 ball, then run a 6 pack, and you get scored as the lowest lol. (To be fair break and runs may matter as a trigger to review scores, but do not calculate into the handicap). What I'm saying is that although you "have no doubt" that you would have gone up in APA as a result of narrowly beating your opponent (because you believe the specifics of the way the match unfolded would somehow matter), I think you are mistaken in that assumption. However, if in the second half of that match you shut your opponent down by playing turning the table over to him every time with a safe instead of a miss, then that most certainly would impact your skill level. (Because all those safeties would reduce your innings, and thus increase your balls per inning, which is the *only* determining factor of your skill level in APA 9 ball)

Please do update. I'd be happy to hear more. I personally do not like *any* 8 ball system that uses ball count. It makes some sense in 9 ball, in that both players share the goal at all times of progressing through the rack and it is almost always an advantage to make every single ball in any 9 ball format. However, this is not at all the case in 8 ball. In many cases, running off your balls and leaving a problem til the end is the exact opposite of the proper way to play 8 ball. You essentially are getting credit for playing stupid lol.

Thanks for sharing your experience!!

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...

I failed to mention innings because I was not playing apa . I did not count the innings during either match but its safe to say no racks went more than 2 innings thus I know I would have went back up again in 9 ball if this had been an apa match.

I think we both were saying the same things but worded different I guess about how it seems obvious that Fargo puts more emphasis on quality of opponent and spa puts more emphasis on how " innings " you beat your opponent regardless their skill level.

I had 2 team mates that went from a 5 to a 6 by skunking low level players. Beating the crap out of a 2 dont make you a 6 in my book. . Btw they both have come back down but during the time they were 6's realm put a hurting on our team.
 
L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
philly said:
I have been playing some tournaments that use Fargorate and I have an established rating based on over 400 racks. You are correct in that the rating of your opponent has something to do with whether your rating rises or drops.

I think that's the idea of the system, to establish a fair match. The tournament director can put your name or current rating into the system and it will determine for him the race and if you play even or who gets games on the wire. My TO uses the Fargorate charts.

On the website for Fargorate you can list favorites (players) and it will store them for you. Based on my own favorites list it seems to be spot on in that I can see the rationale of their rating because I play these guys all of the time in tourneys and know their speed.

http://www.fargorate.com/
Click to expand...


Thanks for the info. :smile:
 
L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hang-the-9 said:
A WinZip in USAPL is when you win a rack with the opponent getting no points, not winning every rack. I don't think they have a term for that aside from "Nice Shooting" LOL. There is a Table Run when you run out at your first turn on the table when you don't break, and a Break and Run, which I doubt needs explaining. To get a Table Run you need to have run out a certain number of balls, I think 5. You don't get a Table Run if your opponent breaks dry and you run 3 then make a 4-9 combo, but you do get a WinZip then.

In my local USAPL league, the 9 does not count on the break, and you have to call the 9, no crap with a win because the rack was off, which happens when you play on worse than ideal equipment.

Keep in mind that the rating range in Fargo is huge, you are not playing as a 5 or a 6, you are moving up and down 10,20,30 points, but those points are not even 10% of your rating. If you went from a 5 to a 6, that is like a 20% increase. In USAPL you went from a 460 to a 443, but that is about 4%, which is really nothing much. You may end up with an extra few points from your opponents.
Click to expand...

I was under the assumption that a win zip was when you won every rack and your opponent did not win any. Guess I read it wrong....been k own to do that once or twice. :eek:
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lorider said:
I was under the assumption that a win zip was when you won every rack and your opponent did not win any. Guess I read it wrong....been k own to do that once or twice. :eek:
Click to expand...

This is from USAPL rules for my league for 9 ball, which includes the no win on 9 on break. We also play called 9, and have a 10 ball league which is both called shot and called safe.

"Break & Run – When a player breaks and runs the rack (pockets a minimum of 5 balls) to win the game, put “BR” in the game score box and simply count as 14 points when totaling the “Total Score.”

Table Run – When the “Non breaking player” runs the table (pockets a minimum of 5 balls) on their first turn at the table. Mark “TR” in the game score box and count as 14 points when totaling the score.

Win Zip – Winning player wins on their second turn or more and holds the losing player to zero points. Mark “WZ” in the game score box and count as 14 when totaling the score.

9-Ball On The Break – You can not win or lose on the break in USAPL 9-ball. If a player makes the 9-ball with a legal break shot, it will be spotted and the player will continue to shoot. No points are given for the 9-ball in this instance.

If a player makes the 9-ball on the break and commits a foul, then the 9-ball would be spotted and the incoming player will take “Ball in Hand” and place the cue ball anywhere on the table that they like, and shoot from there."
 
L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hang-the-9 said:
This is from USAPL rules for my league for 9 ball, which includes the no win on 9 on break. We also play called 9, and have a 10 ball league which is both called shot and called safe.

"Break & Run – When a player breaks and runs the rack (pockets a minimum of 5 balls) to win the game, put “BR” in the game score box and simply count as 14 points when totaling the “Total Score.”

Table Run – When the “Non breaking player” runs the table (pockets a minimum of 5 balls) on their first turn at the table. Mark “TR” in the game score box and count as 14 points when totaling the score.

Win Zip – Winning player wins on their second turn or more and holds the losing player to zero points. Mark “WZ” in the game score box and count as 14 when totaling the score.

9-Ball On The Break – You can not win or lose on the break in USAPL 9-ball. If a player makes the 9-ball with a legal break shot, it will be spotted and the player will continue to shoot. No points are given for the 9-ball in this instance.

If a player makes the 9-ball on the break and commits a foul, then the 9-ball would be spotted and the incoming player will take “Ball in Hand” and place the cue ball anywhere on the table that they like, and shoot from there."
Click to expand...

Thanks for.clarifying that for me. I dont know if usapl lo's have as much leeway as bcapl lo's but I do know my lo was asked about the ruling on the 9 on the break and he said it counted as a win. We also call the 9....but apparently not on the break lol.

We are only playing 8 and 9 right now but my lo did mention the possibility of adding 10 ball once the league gets established.
 
L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
KMRUNOUT said:
Thanks for sharing. I've never played USAPL but am somewhat familiar with the system. To be honest, I think you drew the wrong conclusion about the two leagues. I know for certain that Fargorate accounts for the quality of your opponent. I know that APA does not. APA accounts for your *performance*, in terms of innings per game for 8 ball and balls per inning in 9 ball. I do not know how USAPL does it. I know they use Fargorate for handicaps now, but it may be the case that their handicapping system is separate and just feeds into the Fargo system. I do know for certain that the way you described the 9 ball match is completely irrelevant to APA system. Honestly, in APA you could take a million innings to pocket 1 ball, then run a 6 pack, and you get scored as the lowest lol. (To be fair break and runs may matter as a trigger to review scores, but do not calculate into the handicap). What I'm saying is that although you "have no doubt" that you would have gone up in APA as a result of narrowly beating your opponent (because you believe the specifics of the way the match unfolded would somehow matter), I think you are mistaken in that assumption. However, if in the second half of that match you shut your opponent down by playing turning the table over to him every time with a safe instead of a miss, then that most certainly would impact your skill level. (Because all those safeties would reduce your innings, and thus increase your balls per inning, which is the *only* determining factor of your skill level in APA 9 ball)

Please do update. I'd be happy to hear more. I personally do not like *any* 8 ball system that uses ball count. It makes some sense in 9 ball, in that both players share the goal at all times of progressing through the rack and it is almost always an advantage to make every single ball in any 9 ball format. However, this is not at all the case in 8 ball. In many cases, running off your balls and leaving a problem til the end is the exact opposite of the proper way to play 8 ball. You essentially are getting credit for playing stupid lol.

Thanks for sharing your experience!!

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...

You mentioned differences in 9 ball between usapl and spa. Man you dont k ow how different they are lol. It became glaringly obvious last night how much emphasis usapl puts on pocket in the 9.

My captain threw me first and they dumped a 250 on me. I was so looking forward to their apa 5 who I have played numerous times and its always close between us. Well my head wasn't in the right place when they dumped on me and it showed the first 2 racks. First rack I scratch after pocketing the 8 and going 2 rails to get on the 9. He wins 14-6 . 2 ND rack I have basically the same situation with the 8 and 9 so I just come straight off the top rail after pocketing the 8 and get bad on the 9. I try a safe and flub it leaving him an easy shot on the 9. He wins 14-8 . I win the 3rd rack 14-1. I win the 4th rack 14-4. He wins 33-42 in a 32- 60 race with me going to 60. I basically gave him 90% of the points he needed due to mistakes I made on the 9 in the first 2 racks. Those 2-9's gave him 28 points of his required 32 to win. Believe me. I wont be making that mistake again.

In 8 ball they throw a 350 and its a 49-34 race with me going to 49.

First rack I break and run 3 balls and play a safe. He makes a very good kick and proceeds to run the table. I lose 14-3 thinking ...dang these low level players are killing me. I basically gave the 9 ball match away to a guy who cant run 2 balls and now this 350 is shooting like a 550.

2nd rack I win 14-6.
3rd rack I win 14-6
4th rack I win 14-0 with a break and run.
5th rack I run all my balls ....make a soft hard cut towards the corner pocket trying to avoid scratching in the side. The 8 stops a half inch short of falling in . Dang...just missed making my first ever 2 pack by a half inch. He runs 5 balls before missing and.leaving me an easy shot at the hanging 8. I win 14-5 to win the race 59-31.

So to sum it up so far concerning my Fargo rate in this league.

Start as a 460.
Lose 8 ball to a 425 and drop to a 458
Win both 8 and 9 last week to a 423 and drop to 434.
Lose 9 ball to a 250 and win 8 ball vs a 350 and see today that I am raised to a 462 now.
Hard to figure out how I win both matches last week and was lowered and only win one of 2 this week and was raised back to a couple points higher than I started.

Loving the new league so far.
 
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