Jay Helfert and the other senior members

barrymuch90

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A lot of interesting replies on here, most coming from a regional perspective about what was popular in their area of the country. I had the good fortune to move around the country quite a bit in the 60's and 70's, so I had a little different perspective on things.

If you wanted to make a living playing Pool in that era you number one had to play 9-Ball! That was the by far the biggest gambling game at the time and like TRW noted it was a much more difficult game back then playing "push out" and spotting all balls. If you wanted to make some easy money, you played Eight Ball in the bars and every self respecting hustler played on the small tables from time to time. When we talked about good "spots" to go to, the conversation might include poolrooms and bars.

One Pocket was the second most lucrative game for pool hustlers back then, offering a big advantage to the more skilled player. You couldn't luck out and beat someone playing One Pocket, which could happen in a short set of 9-Ball. That's why most 9-Ball action back then was either by the game or playing "ahead" sets. There were often situations where a strong local 9-Ball player was vulnerable if you could get him into a One Pocket game. Straight shooting was not enough to overcome knowledge of the game!

On the East Coast (particularly the Northeast) Straight Pool still reigned and most of the money games were in 14.1, usually playing by the game to 125 or 150. That said, the skilled 14.1 players could play all games so it was definitely not a hustler's paradise messing with these guys. Only the very best players tried to hustle pool around the Northeast, the action was just too tough.

In the Mid South states like Kentucky and Tennessee and farther South you could get Bank Pool action, but this was also tough action so you had to pick your spots carefully.

Once again, on the East Coast almost all tables were 4 1/2 x 9, but in the South and the Midwest the over-sized 8' tables were very common. Out West it was mostly 9' tables again. Bar tables were almost universally 7' with one notable exception. In the Northwest they played on 8' bar tables.

I never saw much gambling at 14.1 anywhere, so there wasn't any real money to be made at that game. Same for Three Cushions. It was rare to see a money game. Not that it didn't happen, just that it was a rare occurrence and if you were trying to make a living playing pool, you were looking for action every day and 9-Ball was the ticket. And bar table Eight Ball was second.

So in conclusion, I will say that a serious pool player in that era needed to be skilled in only two games to do well, 9-Ball and One Pocket. So in that respect it was not that much different than it is today.

As for Ten Ball back then, it was the preferred ring game format among good players and rarely did you see a money match between two players at Ten Ball. The only notable Ten Ball heads up match I ever watched was between Buddy Hall and Jimmy Reid, two of the best back then. On that day, Jimmy won (I was in!) and Buddy beat him a time or two as well. :D

The fact that almost everyone offered there take on the preferred games from their era from their regions has made this thread a very fun and also informative read. Then of course Jay chimes in and gives us all we need to know. I'm a bit of a history guy and obviously a pool player so any chance I get to read up on any old school info or stories or whatever is truly a treat for me so thanks for all who contributed to this thread!!!
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
A lot of interesting replies on here, most coming from a regional perspective about what was popular in their area of the country. I had the good fortune to move around the country quite a bit in the 60's and 70's, so I had a little different perspective on things.

If you wanted to make a living playing Pool in that era you number one had to play 9-Ball! That was the by far the biggest gambling game at the time and like TRW noted it was a much more difficult game back then playing "push out" and spotting all balls. If you wanted to make some easy money, you played Eight Ball in the bars and every self respecting hustler played on the small tables from time to time. When we talked about good "spots" to go to, the conversation might include poolrooms and bars.

One Pocket was the second most lucrative game for pool hustlers back then, offering a big advantage to the more skilled player. You couldn't luck out and beat someone playing One Pocket, which could happen in a short set of 9-Ball. That's why most 9-Ball action back then was either by the game or playing "ahead" sets. There were often situations where a strong local 9-Ball player was vulnerable if you could get him into a One Pocket game. Straight shooting was not enough to overcome knowledge of the game!

On the East Coast (particularly the Northeast) Straight Pool still reigned and most of the money games were in 14.1, usually playing by the game to 125 or 150. That said, the skilled 14.1 players could play all games so it was definitely not a hustler's paradise messing with these guys. Only the very best players tried to hustle pool around the Northeast, the action was just too tough.

In the Mid South states like Kentucky and Tennessee and farther South you could get Bank Pool action, but this was also tough action so you had to pick your spots carefully.

Once again, on the East Coast almost all tables were 4 1/2 x 9, but in the South and the Midwest the over-sized 8' tables were very common. Out West it was mostly 9' tables again. Bar tables were almost universally 7' with one notable exception. In the Northwest they played on 8' bar tables.

I never saw much gambling at 14.1 anywhere, so there wasn't any real money to be made at that game. Same for Three Cushions. It was rare to see a money game. Not that it didn't happen, just that it was a rare occurrence and if you were trying to make a living playing pool, you were looking for action every day and 9-Ball was the ticket. And bar table Eight Ball was second.

So in conclusion, I will say that a serious pool player in that era needed to be skilled in only two games to do well, 9-Ball and One Pocket. So in that respect it was not that much different than it is today.

As for Ten Ball back then, it was the preferred ring game format among good players and rarely did you see a money match between two players at Ten Ball. The only notable Ten Ball heads up match I ever watched was between Buddy Hall and Jimmy Reid, two of the best back then. On that day, Jimmy won (I was in!) and Buddy beat him a time or two as well. :D

Good overview J.

Ten ball back then was Very common when you ''ring it up'' with more than 3 players. They would switch from nine to ten, it was winner break. Many packages were had during these ring games. So 5 games might go by, and then you might have ta kick and sit down again, just the way it was.

I also remember the ''bus stop'' in San Francisco, during my early days there 1970, with the Palace and Chocrans still open before Bart. They had a 4x8 Valley Bar table with a Big/Heavy cue ball, Ronnie Barber was the house man so ta speak, he was very hard to beat with that Ball, and that table size. There were 4 or five different bar balls at the time, so getting trapped was very possible. The Black Beauties and other pharmaceutical uppers desoxzin/yellows were prevalent also, and anyone anywhere at any time could go busted on a home court bar table if ya weren't watching what was ''really'' going on.
 
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JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
I started playing one pocket after I returned home to New Orleans and started hanging out at The Sport Palace. That was the main gambling game in 1980. Prior to that, 9 ball was the favorite game imo. But one pocket was the favorite game of all of the hustlers because as others have mentioned, they could hide their speed.

As time has passed, it is my belief that people have become disenchanted with rotational games and more and more people are playing one pocket. I believe the reason is that more people continue to realize that one pocket is an "interesting game", requiring lots of knowledge and multiple skill sets.

Since there is no roll-out in rotational games anymore you seldom see people making difficult shots and it becomes boring for people to watch the same "easy shots" being made over and over. (Of course that is due to excellent position play).

In one pocket, you regularly see difficult shots tried and made.

One pocket is the elite game of pool, primarily because it requires a player to utilize all billiard skill sets at a very high level.

A lot of the credit for the increase in one pocket in recent years is due, imo because of poolactiontv.com who has made one pocket one-on-one matches AND one pocket tournament play a premium by getting the best pool players together, where some of them can make a decent payday.

JoeyA
 

Ken_4fun

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I kinda got jabbed for saying 9 ball is a kids game. Maybe rightly so, but I do spend alot of time on YOUTUBE. Watch McCready play Segal, and Earl (on a bar box), and guys that is just RUN OUT POOL. I have heard from numerous folks that McCready, Hall, and others would run out the entire set, with the other player never getting out of the chair......talk about killing someone....

The most impressive pool I ever watched was at DCC with Efren playing Jason Miller in the one pocket finals. Race to 3 and it lasted less than 45 minutes. Jason Miller is an awesome player, and was on fire the entire tournament, but Efren grilled him. Jason never seemed to have even a make able shot the entire set. (It is available from Accu-stats, and IMO, the best ever produced)

I agree that Pat Fleming, the boys from TAR and I guess YOUTUBE for making a big impact on the popularity of today's one pocket.

Ken
 
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Pushout

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jay talking about the action, or lack of it, in the NE reminded me that bar tables in New York State were all 3 x 6 at that time, not 3 1/2 x 7, with a big cue ball. Bars could only have one table and by law the cues were supposed to be fiber glass or aluminum, no wood cues. I played the bars from the time I was 16 or 17 (drinking age 18) until I was 28 and it was tough trying to move that big rock.
 

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i have been around action pool for over 50 years
and i can not remember seeing 14.1 as anything but
a very rare gambling game

maybe i saw 10 games in my life with action,
never have i seen 2 games in a month
it was considered a funsy game


even the movie the hustler failed to make it popular in texas

9 ball was the game of choice on bar tables and even the big tables
at the Cotton Bowling Palace but one pocket was by far my favorite

so many players barely knew the rules

for over 50 years it has been the primary action game

lately there are so many great players that average players like
myself need spots like 18 to 4 in order to compete

for those of you who think that is crazy,you may find out the hard way

it is still the only game where a week player can match up
with any chance of winning
 

sciarco

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I grew up in Hamilton Ontario Canada and played regularly at a place called Mikes billiards 1967 and on, the games played was snooker golf and 8 ball we called it solids and stripes.
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
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jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Jay talking about the action, or lack of it, in the NE reminded me that bar tables in New York State were all 3 x 6 at that time, not 3 1/2 x 7, with a big cue ball. Bars could only have one table and by law the cues were supposed to be fiber glass or aluminum, no wood cues. I played the bars from the time I was 16 or 17 (drinking age 18) until I was 28 and it was tough trying to move that big rock.

I do remember the 6' Irving Kaye tables in New York. I made a nice little score in an upscale bar playing on one once. The big mud ball was pretty common at that time and you could do things with it that seemed impossible, like cutting balls 90 degrees from almost anywhere. Forget about trying to draw the ball though. Stroke as hard as you could and it might come back an inch. ;)
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good overview J.

Ten ball back then was Very common when you ''ring it up'' with more than 3 players. They would switch from nine to ten, it was winner break. Many packages were had during these ring games. So 5 games might go by, and then you might have ta kick and sit down again, just the way it was.

I also remember the ''bus stop'' in San Francisco, during my early days there 1970, with the Palace and Chocrans still open before Bart. They had a 4x8 Valley Bar table with a Big/Heavy cue ball, Ronnie Barber was the house man so ta speak, he was very hard to beat with that Ball, and that table size. There were 4 or five different bar balls at the time, so getting trapped was very possible. The Black Beauties and other pharmaceutical uppers desoxzin/yellows were prevalent also, and anyone anywhere at any time could go busted on a home court bar table if ya weren't watching what was ''really'' going on.


"The Bus Stop" was a bar on a corner of Union Street. Back in the 70's Union Street was home to wall-to-wall offices of lawyers, bankers, real estate agents, and stock brokers. I'd occasionally wander in and see, Ronnie Barber, Waterdog, Filipino Gene, and other notables standing against the wall waiting for their quarter to come up to play some $25 8ball with the swells.

Lou Figueroa
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
1970

"The Bus Stop" was a bar on a corner of Union Street. Back in the 70's Union Street was home to wall-to-wall offices of lawyers, bankers, real estate agents, and stock brokers. I'd occasionally wander in and see, Ronnie Barber, Waterdog, Filipino Gene, and other notables standing against the wall waiting for their quarter to come up to play some $25 8ball with the swells.

Lou Figueroa
Yep I lived on Laguna off VanNess and tended bar at Henry Africas on Van Ness. Tried to hustle Searcy at the palace :). Played Daulton (Asian player) some 14.1 at a room on the top of VanNess. When I looked up after running 4 racks to close it out, stakes had walked. About eight years later, ran into Daulton at the Sports Palace in NOrleans, with a backer. He lemoned and gave me back double what I had gotten robbed of on the hill in SF. His steakhorse never saw it coming. This time we played 9 ball, which was waaaaay tougher to beat em at in that era. Nice gesture, unexpected, but the code of the road kept me pumped up, we always gave each other a nod from there after, as we bumped into each other on the road.
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yep I lived on Laguna off VanNess and tended bar at Henry Africas on Van Ness. Tried to hustle Searcy at the palace :). Played Daulton (Asian player) some 14.1 at a room on the top of VanNess. When I looked up after running 4 racks to close it out, stakes had walked. About eight years later, ran into Daulton at the Sports Palace in NOrleans, with a backer. He lemoned and gave me back double what I had gotten robbed of on the hill in SF. His steakhorse never saw it coming. This time we played 9 ball, which was waaaaay tougher to beat em at in that era. Nice gesture, unexpected, but the code of the road kept me pumped up, we always gave each other a nod from there after, as we bumped into each other on the road.


That would have been Dalton Leong, a hell of a player, who ran with Hawaiian Brian. Early 70's in SF I was a teenager and went out to breakfast with him and a bunch of other guys very early one morning, after a night of pool and he and Brian were telling some pretty funny road stories.

Sitting there I noticed that Dalton was wearing a very nice gold ring with a single beautiful piece of Imperial Jade. I asked him about it and he said, "If I told you what's it worth you might cut my finger off to get it."

Sadly, a few years after, I was told he was killed during a hold up in NYC. I always wondered if it was over that ring.

Lou Figueroa
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Guys -

I have been around pool about 30 years. Back then everything was 9 ball, then about 10-15 years ago, it went to 10 ball.

But what seems to be the biggest change, NOW EVERYONE is playing one pocket. While I like to watch one pocket the most, has the pool world changed or has my preference to watch it jaded my perspective.

Nine ball just seems like a kids game. The top players just run out, and it really becomes a break contest with the guy that can break and have a opening shot on the one (or first ball), he plays connect the dots and runs out.

Jay and the old guys, did the top players play 9 ball, or one pocket? Do you guys see a change?

Any thoughts?


Ken

I'm not a senior member, I've only been playing since 1993 or so.

IMO, one pocket is still a specialty game. Only some of the gamblers play it, just like in the old days we hear about in the 1960's etc. Its popular in certain cities, like Philly and Chicago. Always has been in those places. Most other cities, its not played too much.

The top pros, I don't think play it outside of the DCC. Or, maybe to go after a 1 pocket specialist, like Frost, which is probably the only reason Dennis was playing it, to get that easy money.

Gambling amongst the top pros is more of a dead end now than it was in 1990. If there were 5 big one pocket events a year, like the DCC, then I think all the pros would play it. You'd see all the top 9 ball player dominate it after a few tournaments.

IMO of course:)
 

Chicagoplayer

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
14.1

Guys -

I have been around pool about 30 years. Back then everything was 9 ball, then about 10-15 years ago, it went to 10 ball.

But what seems to be the biggest change, NOW EVERYONE is playing one pocket. While I like to watch one pocket the most, has the pool world changed or has my preference to watch it jaded my perspective.

Nine ball just seems like a kids game. The top players just run out, and it really becomes a break contest with the guy that can break and have a opening shot on the one (or first ball), he plays connect the dots and runs out.

Jay and the old guys, did the top players play 9 ball, or one pocket? Do you guys see a change?

Any thoughts?


Ken

14.1
Rotation, then 9 Ball, 1P (Background game always, not hyped to the masses. Concealed)
 

GreenFeltguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are right about 9 ball

For many years I have thought nine ball was for non thinking pool players who could only play a game that tells that "shoot me next" very little thought process. One Pocket is the best pool game because it requires thought. Even 8 ball requires thought and is a much better game than nine ball.
 

12squared

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I grew up in the Detroit area and began playing 69-70 time-frame. The tournaments were mostly 9-ball and 14.1 back then w/the 1-pocket occasionally thrown in at Johnston City and all-around at Stardust. But as "jazznpool" mentioned, 1-pocket was always a big gambling game, especially at the Rack.

Also, Tom Wirth's post was right on about what happened to 9-ball. Thanks for the question.

Dave
 

bstroud

Deceased
It's the new cloth.

Simonis cloth has made 9 ball Too easy and even 10 ball is now pretty simple.

It's also the reason that one pocket is more popular. It used to be difficult to run 8 and out. Now just about any decent player can do it.

Bill S.
 

philly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not a senior member, I've only been playing since 1993 or so.

IMO, one pocket is still a specialty game. Only some of the gamblers play it, just like in the old days we hear about in the 1960's etc. Its popular in certain cities, like Philly and Chicago. Always has been in those places. Most other cities, its not played too much.

The top pros, I don't think play it outside of the DCC. Or, maybe to go after a 1 pocket specialist, like Frost, which is probably the only reason Dennis was playing it, to get that easy money.

Gambling amongst the top pros is more of a dead end now than it was in 1990. If there were 5 big one pocket events a year, like the DCC, then I think all the pros would play it. You'd see all the top 9 ball player dominate it after a few tournaments.

IMO of course:)

I used to watch Jimmy Fusco play all night at the Boulevard Social Club in Philly in the late 60's early 70's. All the best players came through there at one time or another. The big dollar game in that room was one pocket.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
I grew up in the Detroit area and began playing 69-70 time-frame. The tournaments were mostly 9-ball and 14.1 back then w/the 1-pocket occasionally thrown in at Johnston City and all-around at Stardust. But as "jazznpool" mentioned, 1-pocket was always a big gambling game, especially at the Rack.

Also, Tom Wirth's post was right on about what happened to 9-ball. Thanks for the question.

Dave

All the years I was there till the night it got raided it was always, one week of 9 ball, one week of 14.1 and one week of one pocket. The event as I remember it always ran for 3 weeks straight. Gin Rummy was played 24/7 for 3 weeks straight and Janscos was always open 24 hours, and there was a card game upstairs in the backroom area/private.
 
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