Jay Helfert and the other senior members

I think one pocket, esp In decades past, was seen as a bit of a gaffe game to lots, there are so many subtleties to it.

Also, given how it is easier to hide a skill disparity in 1p, vs a rotation game..,People could get trapped up easier in 1p.

When I took up the game seriously in 1973 most of the good players played Straight Pool and 9 ball. Not so much One Pocket until the '80s, if I remember right.
I personally think that a lot of people today are fed up with the rules for rotation games and the ease with which the good players run out and are switching to One Pocket. At least, that's what I've been told.

might get more responses from the people your asking if you posted this on onepocket.org

Ken;

I think that there is an increased appreciation for the 'moves' aspect of 1p, where one has to call on their intelligence and craftiness to play this game well.

As for 9b, since the very best players in the world aren't running 5 and 6 packs regularly then imo it's still a big boy game.

best,
brian

When I gave up the game 10 years ago I was only interested in 8 and 9 ball. It seemed that one pocket was being played then but not like it is since I started playing again last fall. Now that I'm playing again Straight Pool has become my main interest.

One pocket was always the most popular gambling game in the pool rooms I frequented in the Detroit area beginning in 1969 among the better players. 9-ball, payball on 5x10 American Snooker table, golf on the 12' snooker table (or 10') and one red ball snooker on the 5x10 were other action games. Some places had bar boxes and there was 9-ball and 8-ball action on those tables.

I used to love playing 6 handed Liability or Payball haven't seen those games played in many moons.

Ken_4fun said:

Guys -

I have been around pool about 30 years. Back then everything was 9 ball, then about 10-15 years ago, it went to 10 ball.

But what seems to be the biggest change, NOW EVERYONE is playing one pocket. While I like to watch one pocket the most, has the pool world changed or has my preference to watch it jaded my perspective.

Nine ball just seems like a kids game. The top players just run out, and it really becomes a break contest with the guy that can break and have a opening shot on the one (or first ball), he plays connect the dots and runs out.

Jay and the old guys, did the top players play 9 ball, or one pocket? Do you guys see a change?

Any thoughts?

Ken

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Maybe a bit of perspective might be in order. It helps to have about 50 years in the game, rather than just 30. If you have 50 or so, you remember that 14.1 was the game of the champions in the early years.

If you're younger than that, it's ok. But it's not too sagacious to call nine ball a kid's game, unless you can regularly run five or six racks of it, on a pretty tight pocket table. If you can do that, fine. Can you?

Ten ball, ok, a pretty manly version of nine ball, though the game takes away the two-way shot, which is not good. In my opinion, the two-way shot is an important part of pool strategy.

One pocket, ok, for those who like a game that takes a long time. Maybe they don't want to be behind seven to nothing in fifteen minutes. But, there is considerable skill in one pocket. And, it can be played in an offensive manner. Just look up Strawberry on Youtube. It can be played quickly, or can take an eternity.

I love these perspicacious thoughts though...

All the best,
WW

I started playing pool in 1966. It was all straight pool, 8 ball, 3 cushion and 9 ball ring games. There was no one pocket where I grew up. The place was Nick's Pool Room in Gloucester, Massachusetts.
I did take a hiatus from pool for many years and got back into it seriously in the 90'S. I do enjoy watching high level one pocket but not the average Joe playing it.

On Long Island in the 1940's trough the 1960's 14.1 was the major game, and most wouldn't bet much or at all. 9-ball was second, followed by 15 ball rotation games for money...then 3-cushion and snooker. Top road players played all games well and either played off the wall or with one two-piece plane jane. After the COM came out, it was almost all 9-ball. One Hole started getting big across the nation in the late 1980's. Johnnyt

late 1960's one pocket was king. everyone played no matter their skill level. pill pool was very popular until early 1980's. bars were all most exclusively 8 ball. if you wanted action, then 9 ball was the game especially after midnight. these dens of action were often in a room or two located in old general stores, rooms located between eateries and bars that could be open 24/7 .. the good ole days ...

I grew up in the Washington D.C. Area. One Pocket was played in virtually every pool room, and there were pool rooms everywhere. It was without doubt the most popular game being played since the 40s through to the present day.

Nine ball was high on the list of popular games too but nine ball was played differently in the 60s and early 70s. Back then there was no "Texas Express" rules. The game was played with a push out at any time. Any two consecutive fouls resulted in ball in hand. Also after a scratch, should the lowest numbered ball be located in the kitchen, it got spotted and the shooter shot from the kitchen. One additional factor that changed nine ball more than most other games back then was the introduction of non-directional cloth. That old cloth ran far slower than the cloth used today. This helped those players with limited stroking power to get out of line and still manage to draw their ball as well as the power players.

All these factors dramatically changes nine ball to the point that the game became child's play for even the local short stop. Games like One pocket and straight pool were changed too, but not nearly to the same extent as nine ball because most of the action in these two games remained at the foot end of the table where having a big stroke was not as important. Nine ball is considered a "big table" game and back then if you had a big stroke and could draw your ball up and down on that slow cloth, you had a huge advantage. Modern cloth has removed that advantage.

Tom

TRWpool said:

I grew up in the Washington D.C. Area. One Pocket was played in virtually every pool room, and there were pool rooms everywhere. It was without doubt the most popular game being played since the 40s through to the present day.

Nine ball was high on the list of popular games too but nine ball was played differently in the 60s and early 70s. Back then there was no "Texas Express" rules. The game was played with a push out at any time. Any two consecutive fouls resulted in ball in hand. Also after a scratch, should the lowest numbered ball be located in the kitchen, it got spotted and the shooter shot from the kitchen. One additional factor that changed nine ball more than most other games back then was the introduction of non-directional cloth. That old cloth ran far slower than the cloth used today. This helped those players with limited stroking power to get out of line and still manage to draw their ball as well as the power players.

All these factors dramatically changes nine ball to the point that the game became child's play for even the local short stop. Games like One pocket and straight pool were changed too, but not nearly to the same extent as nine ball because most of the action in these two games remained at the foot end of the table where having a big stroke was not as important. Nine ball is considered a "big table" game and back then if you had a big stroke and could draw your ball up and down on that slow cloth, you had a huge advantage. Modern cloth has removed that advantage.

Tom

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This is the truth.

Also, I noticed, at least in the '80s, that one-pocket seemed to be really popular down South. Not so popular in other regions of the country as it was down South.

Remember when players used to climb up on the table, on all fours, to make a shot? The vision of that still makes me chuckle.

In Bowling Green Ky in 1960s there was a game called 9 ball one pocket, it was a very popular game in one of the pool halls in town, talk about an advantage on the break, the breaker could always make a ball if he knew what he was doing. This was the same rules as one pocket however you only used 9 balls. But 9 ball and rotation were still the most popular games and of course 15 banks were always played on the front tables in Kentucky.

Ken_4fun said:

Guys -

I have been around pool about 30 years. Back then everything was 9 ball, then about 10-15 years ago, it went to 10 ball.

But what seems to be the biggest change, NOW EVERYONE is playing one pocket. While I like to watch one pocket the most, has the pool world changed or has my preference to watch it jaded my perspective.

YOU GET MANY SHOTS EVEN WHEN YOU LOSE EACH GAME. IT'S A GAME WHERE A HANDICAPP ALLOWS ANYONE TO PLAY ANY OTHER LEVEL PLAYER.

Nine ball just seems like a kids game. The top players just run out, and it really becomes a break contest with the guy that can break and have a opening shot on the one (or first ball), he plays connect the dots and runs out.
THAT'S WHY THEY SHOULD PLAY SETS, LIKE TENNIS. YOU BREAK I RACK, I BREAK THEN YOU RACK. IN TENNIS GAMES ALSO CAN GET BORING WAITING FOR EACH TIEBREAKER TO DETERMINE EACH SET,WHEN EVERY SET GOES HILL HILL.

Jay and the old guys, did the top players play 9 ball, or one pocket? Do you guys see a change?

TOP GAMBLERS PLAYED THIS GAME. IT'S THE ONLY GAME WHERE YOUR ABLE TO MILK YOUR OPPONENTS $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ AND THEY NEVER KNOW IT, AND THEY WILL PLAY AGAIN AND AGAIN.

Any thoughts?

I inserted some comments above in CAPS


Ken

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Any time your opponent gets to the table multiple times in a game and has chances (or they seem to have chances) they feel better....and in the game. I look at it much like chess. If your one of the great checker players, would you be able to tell in a chess game that you just learned, that Gasparov was really letting up and leading you around?

In Johnston City IL, Fats played one hole, Ronnie Allen, Rempe, Shorty, Hubert Cokes, and most of the Old, prior generation/Jersey Red group, had their own pecking order. Players from the past, groomed on 14.1 had a great sense of workin in the pack (full rack clusters). Some say Fats created the game, I wouldn't doubt it.

In 96 watching Daulton at CJ's on the 5x10 in Dallas playing Amarillo Slim 15-5 one pocket $300 a rack, tells you....this game has the ability to adjust and make both players feel like they have the best of it, when in reality, only one is holding the cards. It's a true hustlers game.

Ken_4fun said:

Guys -

I have been around pool about 30 years. Back then everything was 9 ball, then about 10-15 years ago, it went to 10 ball.

But what seems to be the biggest change, NOW EVERYONE is playing one pocket. While I like to watch one pocket the most, has the pool world changed or has my preference to watch it jaded my perspective.

Nine ball just seems like a kids game. The top players just run out, and it really becomes a break contest with the guy that can break and have a opening shot on the one (or first ball), he plays connect the dots and runs out.

Jay and the old guys, did the top players play 9 ball, or one pocket? Do you guys see a change?

Any thoughts?


Ken

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Old Guy: present and accounted for.

My experience, growing up in San Francisco back in the 60's, was that very few players on the West Coast played 1pocket. My impression was that it was more of a Midwest game. Occasionally playing at The Palace, I never saw 1pocket being played. Down the street at Cochran's, every once in a while. We all knew what 1pocket was but we just never played it.

There was also the issue of it being considered something of a hustler's gaffe game. A "dark art' if you will.

IMO what really popularized the game, beyond its intrinsic wonderfulness, were three things: first, Matt regularly holding The US One Pocket Open up in Kalamazoo at The Billiard Playground; second, Accu-Stats recording and popularizing those matches, and the series of 1pocket tournaments held by Grady, through its videos. All of a sudden, in the 90's, people could see how the shots were played, stopping and rewinding, and listen to the expert commentary by guys like Grady, DiLiberto, and a host of others. Ronnie Allen once told me, about this phenomenon, “Shots it took me 15 years to learn, 17 year old kids are shooting nowadays.”

And third, 1pocket became much more popular and with more players interpreting the game, the evolution of the game sped up and the general level of play rose.
 It wasn't just some road agents traveling the country that wanted to play 1pocket. More and more it became everyone wanting to play 1pocket, including international players, though Americans still dominate.

Maybe we could change the MC to a 1pocket competition

Lou Figueroa

A lot of interesting replies on here, most coming from a regional perspective about what was popular in their area of the country. I had the good fortune to move around the country quite a bit in the 60's and 70's, so I had a little different perspective on things.

If you wanted to make a living playing Pool in that era you number one had to play 9-Ball! That was the by far the biggest gambling game at the time and like TRW noted it was a much more difficult game back then playing "push out" and spotting all balls. If you wanted to make some easy money, you played Eight Ball in the bars and every self respecting hustler played on the small tables from time to time. When we talked about good "spots" to go to, the conversation might include poolrooms and bars.

One Pocket was the second most lucrative game for pool hustlers back then, offering a big advantage to the more skilled player. You couldn't luck out and beat someone playing One Pocket, which could happen in a short set of 9-Ball. That's why most 9-Ball action back then was either by the game or playing "ahead" sets. There were often situations where a strong local 9-Ball player was vulnerable if you could get him into a One Pocket game. Straight shooting was not enough to overcome knowledge of the game!

On the East Coast (particularly the Northeast) Straight Pool still reigned and most of the money games were in 14.1, usually playing by the game to 125 or 150. That said, the skilled 14.1 players could play all games so it was definitely not a hustler's paradise messing with these guys. Only the very best players tried to hustle pool around the Northeast, the action was just too tough.

In the Mid South states like Kentucky and Tennessee and farther South you could get Bank Pool action, but this was also tough action so you had to pick your spots carefully.

Once again, on the East Coast almost all tables were 4 1/2 x 9, but in the South and the Midwest the over-sized 8' tables were very common. Out West it was mostly 9' tables again. Bar tables were almost universally 7' with one notable exception. In the Northwest they played on 8' bar tables.

I never saw much gambling at 14.1 anywhere, so there wasn't any real money to be made at that game. Same for Three Cushions. It was rare to see a money game. Not that it didn't happen, just that it was a rare occurrence and if you were trying to make a living playing pool, you were looking for action every day and 9-Ball was the ticket. And bar table Eight Ball was second.

So in conclusion, I will say that a serious pool player in that era needed to be skilled in only two games to do well, 9-Ball and One Pocket. So in that respect it was not that much different than it is today.

As for Ten Ball back then, it was the preferred ring game format among good players and rarely did you see a money match between two players at Ten Ball. The only notable Ten Ball heads up match I ever watched was between Buddy Hall and Jimmy Reid, two of the best back then. On that day, Jimmy won (I was in!) and Buddy beat him a time or two as well.

Island Drive said:

In Johnston City IL, Fats played one hole, Ronnie Allen, Rempe, Shorty, Hubert Cokes, and most of the Old, prior generation/Jersey Red group, had their own pecking order. .

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This was in fact the place where The Mighty Geese played all of these and all of the other world champs and took third . Sorry couldn't help myself lol.

Now as to Jams's, Tom Tom's and my area - I can only go back to the early 90's but it seemed to me only the top guys and maybe a few upper level guys were playing one pocket. With one exception - the blacks. It seemed like pretty much all of them played one hole regardless of speed. The whites were playing mostly 9 ball. With many of the black dudes, they would never get into any kind of action unless it was one hole so I think maybe alot of the white players got into it to foster more action. Staright Pool was pretty rare to ever see any action in .Tom Tom, DC was never really my scene for pool but I remember there were many black pool rooms there so I'm sure that added to the prevalence of one hole down there going so far back.

I can say post 93 or so one hole became very popular in my room and continued to grow more popular ever since to the point as was said that's where most action is these days. I think part of the mentality is you can make a mistake and still come back from it where in 9 ball often that may not be the case.

In Newnan,Ga. where I grew up there was no 1-pocket or straight pool. The games they played were 6-ball-8-ball-9-ball, rotation,snooker(5x10) pill games like check-double check and Jack's where there was 7 points-1-3-5-7-10-game(most pts) balls(most balls) and the1 had to be made in either side. Good money game. Another pill game was31. And we had the board games. that went pretty fast. By the way, I started playing in 1963 but got kicked out when my mother threatened to close the place down. Went to the other poolroom and pop let me play after I cleaned up the place. It wasn't till I better that I ventured out to places like Atlanta or other places like Columbus,Ga. that I found out what I had been missing.I started to learn other games and i'm glad that I did. Sorry for being so long.

TRWpool said:

I grew up in the Washington D.C. Area. One Pocket was played in virtually every pool room, and there were pool rooms everywhere. It was without doubt the most popular game being played since the 40s through to the present day.

Nine ball was high on the list of popular games too but nine ball was played differently in the 60s and early 70s. Back then there was no "Texas Express" rules. The game was played with a push out at any time. Any two consecutive fouls resulted in ball in hand. Also after a scratch, should the lowest numbered ball be located in the kitchen, it got spotted and the shooter shot from the kitchen. One additional factor that changed nine ball more than most other games back then was the introduction of non-directional cloth. That old cloth ran far slower than the cloth used today. This helped those players with limited stroking power to get out of line and still manage to draw their ball as well as the power players.

All these factors dramatically changes nine ball to the point that the game became child's play for even the local short stop. Games like One pocket and straight pool were changed too, but not nearly to the same extent as nine ball because most of the action in these two games remained at the foot end of the table where having a big stroke was not as important. Nine ball is considered a "big table" game and back then if you had a big stroke and could draw your ball up and down on that slow cloth, you had a huge advantage. Modern cloth has removed that advantage.

Tom

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Great Observation and summary -


bill