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09-12-2017, 02:33 PM

Ahhh...how do I aim??? I started out years ago and had one bit of advice, "set up a shot and try it, if it goes in good, if it goes left of the pocket, you need to hit it more on the left, and if it misses right, you need to hit it more on the right Do this same shot until you have it down pretty good and then try another one."

Years later this is still what I do. I look at the shot from a standing position, see where I need to send the ball and aim at a point that will send the ball to the hole. If I need to use English I compensate by aiming a little more left if I am using left, and a little more right if using right english...that is about all I do for aiming other than banks or kicks, where I use the Diamonds to determine distance and them hit by feel.
  
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09-12-2017, 03:00 PM

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Originally Posted by Mkindsv View Post
Ahhh...how do I aim??? I started out years ago and had one bit of advice, "set up a shot and try it, if it goes in good, if it goes left of the pocket, you need to hit it more on the left, and if it misses right, you need to hit it more on the right Do this same shot until you have it down pretty good and then try another one."

Years later this is still what I do. I look at the shot from a standing position, see where I need to send the ball and aim at a point that will send the ball to the hole. If I need to use English I compensate by aiming a little more left if I am using left, and a little more right if using right english...that is about all I do for aiming other than banks or kicks, where I use the Diamonds to determine distance and them hit by feel.
Ah yes..... the old-school way of developing an eye for shots. It works. This is also how ghostball and contact points and traditional fractional ball aiming, as well as a mess of other "systems", become workable.... via rote. A player misses enough balls until he/she finally stops missing so much. Then they give credit to whatever particular "system" they stuck with, as if their skills just didn't naturally improve due to hours upon hours of trial and error shot repitition, programming the brain.

But I suppose any system could provide a shortcut to reaching a higher skill level if the player latches on to the concept quickly.


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09-12-2017, 03:42 PM

Since I have been called out to take a swim in the aiming pool, I will wade into the shallow end only.

Those of my generation had very little to no resources available to us to learn this game, particularly aiming. I had transitioned from GB to contact point aiming, For the majority of play, the sight picture I see on the table will either click (or not) with my memories. When I am not freewheeling or having a hard day on the table, I supplement the shot pictures I see with SAM, as a double check. There are also other things I do depending upon the requirements of the shot. Like trying to play for those consistent angles (like half ball hits) that are very visual and predictable.

Basically I have learned from trial and error and used drill and practice even at a young age as a way fix those deficiencies. Have I fixed them all, hell no.

I also have been experimenting with coming in across the line of the shot which has given me a different perspective of the shot picture. I have been adding that to my PSR.

On my bucket list is a trip to see Stan to learn CTE - ProOne. I am the type that has to learn by doing....and questioning. I don't pick things up well from books / videos.

As far as I am concerned a player should experience a number of aiming methods. We all see the balls differently, our brains process this info differently. The aiming system that works for Tom, may not work for Dick or Harry.

Besides there is nothing wrong with being a student of the game, and having a variety of tools at your disposal.


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Awesome. Now, I'd love to hear from the other instructors and better players on here; Scott Lee, Tony in MD, FranCrimi. Lou, Dan. Let's hear yours.


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09-12-2017, 03:51 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
But what's really the point? Shooting traditionally, you use one straight stroke to aim at varying points on the ob. With this ferrule/pivot system, you aim at an approximate place on the ob and vary the amount of pivot to make the shot. So in both instances you are using feel to determine either (in traditional) the aim point on the ob or (in ferrule/pivot) the amount of ferrule/pivoting. I don't see a benefit. Variable pivoting seems more difficult than variable aim point.

Cornerman Freddie said his CTE system is only necessary if you have trouble imagining sending the cue ball to a point off the surface of the ob.
Nope, I'd say it's an objective system that uses known values: tip diameter, pivot distance, and center OB. With a knowledge of the angle needed to pot the ball you can objectively choose one of the techniques to make the shot. The different techniques fall into a 'family' of angles. I can't argue about it because it's only a loose framework now. Let's let Spider release it before you make the claim it's a feel system.


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09-12-2017, 03:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony_in_MD View Post
Since I have been called out to take a swim in the aiming pool, I will wade into the shallow end only.

Those of my generation had very little to no resources available to us to learn this game, particularly aiming. I had transitioned from GB to contact point aiming, For the majority of play, the sight picture I see on the table will either click (or not) with my memories. When I am not freewheeling or having a hard day on the table, I supplement the shot pictures I see with SAM, as a double check. There are also other things I do depending upon the requirements of the shot. Like trying to play for those consistent angles (like half ball hits) that are very visual and predictable.

Basically I have learned from trial and error and used drill and practice even at a young age as a way fix those deficiencies. Have I fixed them all, hell no.

I also have been experimenting with coming in across the line of the shot which has given me a different perspective of the shot picture. I have been adding that to my PSR.

On my bucket list is a trip to see Stan to learn CTE - ProOne. I am the type that has to learn by doing....and questioning. I don't pick things up well from books / videos.

As far as I am concerned a player should experience a number of aiming methods. We all see the balls differently, our brains process this info differently. The aiming system that works for Tom, may not work for Dick or Harry.

Besides there is nothing wrong with being a student of the game, and having a variety of tools at your disposal.
Good post.


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09-12-2017, 04:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Vorpal Cue View Post
Nope, I'd say it's an objective system that uses known values: tip diameter, pivot distance, and center OB. With a knowledge of the angle needed to pot the ball you can objectively choose one of the techniques to make the shot. The different techniques fall into a 'family' of angles. I can't argue about it because it's only a loose framework now. Let's let Spider release it before you make the claim it's a feel system.
Oh, OK. Just one question then. How do you know the angle needed to pot the ball?
  
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09-12-2017, 05:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Oh, OK. Just one question then. How do you know the angle needed to pot the ball?
I used a pivot triangle, 'natch. You could also find the quarter the CP falls in or 'roll your own' method. Let Spider flesh his creation before you get all touchy, feely over it.


My Vorpal cue jabbed 'er wonky and the shot went snicker-snack. 'Twas brillig.
  
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09-12-2017, 05:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony_in_MD View Post
Since I have been called out to take a swim in the aiming pool, I will wade into the shallow end only.

Those of my generation had very little to no resources available to us to learn this game, particularly aiming. I had transitioned from GB to contact point aiming, For the majority of play, the sight picture I see on the table will either click (or not) with my memories. When I am not freewheeling or having a hard day on the table, I supplement the shot pictures I see with SAM, as a double check. There are also other things I do depending upon the requirements of the shot. Like trying to play for those consistent angles (like half ball hits) that are very visual and predictable.

Basically I have learned from trial and error and used drill and practice even at a young age as a way fix those deficiencies. Have I fixed them all, hell no.

I also have been experimenting with coming in across the line of the shot which has given me a different perspective of the shot picture. I have been adding that to my PSR.

On my bucket list is a trip to see Stan to learn CTE - ProOne. I am the type that has to learn by doing....and questioning. I don't pick things up well from books / videos.

As far as I am concerned a player should experience a number of aiming methods. We all see the balls differently, our brains process this info differently. The aiming system that works for Tom, may not work for Dick or Harry.

Besides there is nothing wrong with being a student of the game, and having a variety of tools at your disposal.
Tony, A good post. BUT you say that we all see things differently. I disagree with that assertion. That would be like setting up a zero angle shot and asking a dozen students to see the Cb OB relationship as center-to/-center. And then they all would see center to center differently. Nope. That's a visual task that is easily accomplished by most all players and even non players as well with only minimal guidance. Concerning CTE, the perceptions can be learned and repeated just the like recognizing and seeing a zero angle set-up.
Research shows that we all construct images by the same visual rules. If I see an elephant you can construct the same image, an elephant. Working with a couple of spheres is a little more precarious but concerning a perception, you can see what I see as long as your perspective occupies the same location in space as mine.
I appreciate your interest in my work!

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09-12-2017, 05:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stan shuffett View Post
Tony, A good post. BUT you say that we all see things differently. I disagree with that assertion. That would be like setting up a zero angle shot and asking a dozen students to see the Cb OB relationship as center-to/-center. That's a visual task that is easily accomplished by most players and nonplayers as well with only minimal guidance. Concerning CTE, the perceptions can be learned and repeated just the like recognizing and seeing a zero angle set-up.
Research shows that we all construct images by the same visual rules. If I see an elephant you can construct the same image, an elephant. Working with a couple of spheres is a little more precarious but concerning a perception, you can see what I see as long as your perspective occupies the same location in space as mine.
I appreciate your interest in my work!

Stan Shuffett

No -- not everyone sees things the same

They stand to one side, or the other. They get down on the shot, with the cue to left, or right, or centered. They are low in final shooting position -- some are high and some in between. Some have their head angled so that one eye is closer to the shot than the other. Some, due to the straightest or a bend in their bridge arm, are closer or further from the CB.

To say everyone sees the shot the same is a totally and completely falsely.

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09-12-2017, 05:52 PM

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Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
No -- not everyone sees things the same

They stand to one side, or the other. They get down on the shot, with the cue to left, or right, or centered. They are low in final shooting position -- some are high and some in between. Some have their head angled so that one eye is closer to the shot that the other. Some, due to the straightest or a bend in their bridge arm, are closer or further from the CB.

To say everyone sees the shot the same is a total and completely falsely.

Lou Figueroa
You can have your age-old opinion that will never change. That's fine by me but to say that a group of experienced players can not align visually to see the fullness of one sphere to another as a zero angle is ca ca. That concept extrapolates very nicely to the CTE perceptions of which you actually know very little about.

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09-12-2017, 05:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stan shuffett View Post
You can have your age-old opinion that will never change. That's fine by me but to say that a group of experienced players can not align visually to see the fullness of one sphere to another as a zero angle is ca ca. That concept extrapolates very nicely to the CTE perceptions of which you actually know very little about.

Stan Shuffett
I bet we can both hitt a key hole first try!

Whatever you say, Stan.

The fact of the matter is that pool players stand and get down into final shooting position in all kinds of ways. Extra added flavor comes from all the physical differences -- tall, short, medium, left/right handed, dominate eye stuff, pivot, no pivot. It's why some "systems" cannot possibly work -- everyone is different.

What works for you probably has zero relevance for the udder guy.

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09-12-2017, 06:06 PM

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Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
Whatever you say, Stan.

The fact of the matter is that pool players stand and get down into final shooting position in all kinds of ways. Extra added flavor comes from all the physical differences -- tall ,short, left/right handed, dominate eye stuff. It's why some "systems" cannot possibly work -- everyone is different.

What works for you probably has zero reliance for the udder guy.

Lou Figueroa
You make some legit points and this is where I must add some context. You aim conventionally seeking to narrow your focus along one line. There's lots of visual spaces from which that can happen for traditional aiming.
CTE expands one visual focus rather than narrowing it. You focus on one line while I work with 3 lines.......2 and 3 lines are always superior to one when aiming.
Im just coming at you from a different visual approach.

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09-12-2017, 06:08 PM

I have dabbled in many things but end up going back to feel. I like parts of poolology but start overthinking when it's not an obvious shot position and I like cte but as of yet the way it is explained throws me off. I'm sure of both systems validity, but with both systems you have to use correctly and stroke perfectly otherwise nobody would be missing. Ultimately each system (even feel) comes down to perception imo or getting your eyes in right place for brain to say eureka! That's the right spot!
  
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09-12-2017, 06:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorpal Cue View Post
I used a pivot triangle, 'natch. You could also find the quarter the CP falls in or 'roll your own' method. Let Spider flesh his creation before you get all touchy, feely over it.
I mean, you are saying that once the correct shot angle is determined, the rest is simply objective and rote. For this shot angle use this ferrule and 10 degrees of pivot and pocket the shot, right?

I'm wondering how figuring out that correct shot angle happens for, say, a new player. Oh, and CTE users don't look for contact points. Make it simple. Just tell me in a few sentences that do not involve sines and cosines how you determine the shot angle to begin with.
  
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09-12-2017, 07:05 PM

I get where you are coming from, and I can see why you believe the multiple line approach based on the same location creates a constant visual perspective. More to think about, and this is why I hope to work on it with you. Lots to learn here, if one keeps an open mind.

Maybe this is off base but here is an example of an experience that happened to me.

25 or so years ago I decided to switch to contact lenses in place of glasses. First thing I did was put the contacts on at home and ran to the pool table. To my shock the balls were all ovals, they were not round any more. At some point in time they became round again, as my brain adapted to the sensory information coming in, and began processing it as a round sphere, and not an egg shaped object. Trust me I was ready to take back those contacts when it first happened.

Fast forward to last year, I had a second procedure done on my left eye which was deteriorating slowly. I know that I had compensated for the difference in visual acuity in my set position all of those years as it was slowly getting worse. This is the reason I started to come across the shotline when I was standing up. My final head position now is changed over the cue in part that both of my eyes are working as an equal team.



Quote:
Originally Posted by stan shuffett View Post
Tony, A good post. BUT you say that we all see things differently. I disagree with that assertion. That would be like setting up a zero angle shot and asking a dozen students to see the Cb OB relationship as center-to/-center. And then they all would see center to center differently. Nope. That's a visual task that is easily accomplished by most all players and even non players as well with only minimal guidance. Concerning CTE, the perceptions can be learned and repeated just the like recognizing and seeing a zero angle set-up.
Research shows that we all construct images by the same visual rules. If I see an elephant you can construct the same image, an elephant. Working with a couple of spheres is a little more precarious but concerning a perception, you can see what I see as long as your perspective occupies the same location in space as mine.
I appreciate your interest in my work!

Stan Shuffett


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