Force-Follow Stroking Advice, If Possible..

Bob Jewett

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Yes, but my overall question is what makes "the stroke" for these gifted few? I don't think it's speed of the cue shaft, however. ...
I think it's more accurate to say that you don't believe it is shaft speed. Your belief is incorrect. Mike Page has a video on YouTube that explains why beginners are unlikely to get the same maximum spin as Mike Massey. I think it's under the FargoBilliards channel: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fargobilliards

If you want some more technical details, look at Dr. Dave's website. One surprising thing there is that for some draw shots you don't want to hit as far below center as possible to get maximum draw distance on the cue ball.
 

Bobkitty

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I think it's more accurate to say that you don't believe it is shaft speed. Your belief is incorrect. Mike Page has a video on YouTube that explains why beginners are unlikely to get the same maximum spin as Mike Massey. I think it's under the FargoBilliards channel: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fargobilliards

If you want some more technical details, look at Dr. Dave's website. One surprising thing there is that for some draw shots you don't want to hit as far below center as possible to get maximum draw distance on the cue ball.

I could not find the clip with Mike Massey. I will take a video of someone doing the force follow shot that I wrote about and let's see who can do it. The one with the OB into the corner and 5-6 balls in a line against the long rail. No challenge but a fun thing for everyone to do. I wonder how many of us use this kind of shot when the need arises?
 

Bobkitty

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Here is a video I just took using the Cyclop CB instead of the measel ball. A lot of better force follow; https://youtu.be/9GrfjXIrH_c. I am going to get this better with work and time.
 

Bob Jewett

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Here is a video I just took using the Cyclop CB instead of the measel ball. A lot of better force follow; https://youtu.be/9GrfjXIrH_c. I am going to get this better with work and time.

What you showed is a simple follow shot where the cue ball travels about six diamonds off two cushions. Did you mean to show something else?
 

Bobkitty

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https://youtu.be/nV7CKLcCJo0
Thought you was talking about force follow.

John


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Hey John,
Actually, we looked at this shot and it is easier than the one I just did in the post above. Try it and you'll see. I am hoping to video a world class stroker to perform one of the shots that I posted in the first thread (different than the one Bob demonstrated) and show what can be done with the "correct" stroke. It will give us all something to work on. Amazing how often force follow shots come up but how many of us know them?
 

Bobkitty

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What you showed is a simple follow shot where the cue ball travels about six diamonds off two cushions. Did you mean to show something else?

I see force follow in that shot. It is one of the ways to shoot the 2 ball back into the same corner. You don't see the bending?
 

Bob Jewett

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I see force follow in that shot. It is one of the ways to shoot the 2 ball back into the same corner. You don't see the bending?
There is bend on all follow shots (except for straight-ins). If you hit really hard with half follow the bend will be more visible, as in the shot you showed.

If you want to learn cue ball control, you should look into carom billiards.
 

Bobkitty

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There is bend on all follow shots (except for straight-ins). If you hit really hard with half follow the bend will be more visible, as in the shot you showed.

If you want to learn cue ball control, you should look into carom billiards.

That is the truth, thanks
 

FranCrimi

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Yes, but my overall question is what makes "the stroke" for these gifted few? I don't think it's speed of the cue shaft, however. Why can some lower the shaft in draw almost to the cloth and not get a miscue, while others can be 1/2 cue tip up and get a miscue?

It's a combination of shaft speed, correct angle of attack, accurate tip placement and good timing.

The biggest battle you will have in learning something is having the confidence that you will eventually accomplish it as you go through the pain and suffering of the learning process. As soon as you stop believing in yourself, you'll fail for sure. That's a guarantee. That's really the main difference between an amateur and a pro. The amateur gives up while the pro presses on and keeps trying.
 

Bobkitty

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It's a combination of shaft speed, correct angle of attack, accurate tip placement and good timing.

The biggest battle you will have in learning something is having the confidence that you will eventually accomplish it as you go through the pain and suffering of the learning process. As soon as you stop believing in yourself, you'll fail for sure. That's a guarantee. That's really the main difference between an amateur and a pro. The amateur gives up while the pro presses on and keeps trying.

I'm here at my pool table about 5:30am every morning doing a lot of drills my teacher has given me. I'd say that is driving on... Thanks for helping.
 

skipbales

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Yeah, Efren's strong suit is his capability of hitting the cb exactly where he wants to, so he gets the results he expects from the shot.

Amateur players, if they're brave enough, can shoot at the same speed as Efren did in that shot, but often don't have a high enough aptitude of striking accuracy.

I think Fran is correct. I believe the concept is pretty straight forward. It is how high you hit the cue ball and with how much speed, with emphasis on the accuracy. I doubt it is a lack of strength as much as it is the inability to deliver a level cue through the extreme top of the cue ball consistently. Most players can do something like this occasionally and will mis cue a lot trying. My "high action" and "extreme draw" comes and goes according to how much I practice it. I rarely need it in actual play so don't practice it as much as I should and my range of both high and low with precision declines.

If it is important enough to you I believe you can simply set it up and practice it solidly for a hour a day and in some number of days you will be able to do it. I don't know if it has enough practical application to warrant the effort but that is your call. It might be a worthwhile drill to improve your overall accuracy at speed in general.
 

FranCrimi

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I'm here at my pool table about 5:30am every morning doing a lot of drills my teacher has given me. I'd say that is driving on... Thanks for helping.

I think it's admirable that you're willing to squeeze in the time every day to practice. Just remember, when something doesn't work, you have to change something. Don't beat yourself up. Stay positive and objective.
 

Ratta

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I think it's admirable that you're willing to squeeze in the time every day to practice. Just remember, when something doesn't work, you have to change something. Don't beat yourself up. Stay positive and objective.

:thumbup:

tap tap tap-- like that :)
Hope you re doin well Fran-

take care
 

skipbales

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Yes, but my overall question is what makes "the stroke" for these gifted few? I don't think it's speed of the cue shaft, however. Why can some lower the shaft in draw almost to the cloth and not get a miscue, while others can be 1/2 cue tip up and get a miscue?

Disclaimer, NOT AN EXPERT but lots of lessons from them and 40 years of playing. It seems to me that it is entirely the direction, or you might call it the angle at impact. Scott Lee, Tor Lowry, Jerry Briesath and most others have the cue stick on its way to the cloth, especially on draw shots. The angle will certainly vary from player to player but as long as it is headed slightly down it seems you can hit pretty low. However if there is even the slightest uplift on a draw stroke you are asking for a miscue. Trying to hit with a level cue moving perfectly straight takes talent. The slight downward angle seems to give us a little room for error. If too sharp down we are ok, if hit perfectly we are ok, if no angle down we are level and that is ok. It is only if we are headed the tiniest bit upward that it goes bad.

What say all you pros on this. It is kind of a mystery to us mortals how some players can have a huge sweeping see sawing up and down stroke and draw the cue ball like nobody's business and not miscue. I have to really work at my power draw and if I don't practice it regularly my distance reduces dramatically.
 
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