Frozen Ball Rule

Thecoats · Jul 2, 2008

How do you play a frozen ball in your part of the country? I was playing last night and someone told me that if a ball if frozen they you can bump the ball and if the cue ball gets the same rail after contact that is a good hit. I always thought you had to go to another rail or hit the rail twice with either the object ball or the cue ball after contact. Just curious how you play this in your room.

Thanks in advance for any input.

-don

BVal · Jul 2, 2008

Thecoats said:
How do you play a frozen ball in your part of the country? I was playing last night and someone told me that if a ball if frozen they you can bump the ball and if the cue ball gets the same rail after contact that is a good hit. I always thought you had to go to another rail or hit the rail twice with either the object ball or the cue ball after contact. Just curious how you play this in your room.

Thanks in advance for any input.

-don

Your post is kind of confusing but around here if the cue ball is frozen to an object ball you can hit it however you want to as long as one of the balls hits a rail after the hit.

BVal

Thecoats · Jul 2, 2008

BVal said:
Your post is kind of confusing but around here if the cue ball is frozen to an object ball you can hit it however you want to as long as one of the balls hits a rail after the hit.

BVal

Thanks, in the old days many people played that if a ball was frozen then that rail was no good for the cue ball after initial contact and you would have to go to another rail or make contact with that rail twice.

Thanks BVal
-don

soulcatcher · Jul 2, 2008

Thecoats said:
How do you play a frozen ball in your part of the country? I was playing last night and someone told me that if a ball if frozen they you can bump the ball and if the cue ball gets the same rail after contact that is a good hit. I always thought you had to go to another rail or hit the rail twice with either the object ball or the cue ball after contact. Just curious how you play this in your room.

Thanks in advance for any input.

-don

Same rail counts, as long as it is after contact. Either the cue ball has to hit that rail after contact, or some other ball must hit a cusion or be pocketed, including the object ball.

D Player · Jul 2, 2008

I'm no rules expert, but I believe if the CB hits a frozen ball and then touches a rail (any rail), it is a good hit. I think the object ball can also touch any rail but it would first have to leave contact with the rail to which it is frozen, and then hit a rail (again any rail).

Very well could be different depending on which rules you play.

soulcatcher · Jul 2, 2008

Thecoats said:
Thanks, in the old days many people played that if a ball was frozen then that rail was no good for the cue ball after initial contact and you would have to go to another rail or make contact with that rail twice.

Thanks BVal
-don

I am assuming you are talking OB frozen to rail, not CB and OB frozen.

soulcatcher · Jul 2, 2008

D Player said:
I'm no rules expert, but I believe if the CB hits a frozen ball and then touches a rail (any rail), it is a good hit. I think the object ball can also touch any rail but it would first have to leave contact with the rail to which it is frozen, and then hit a rail (again any rail).

Very well could be different depending on which rules you play.

Agreed. If your OB were frozen to a rail, you could hit it into another ball, which would carom the original OB back to the same rail, and it would be a legal shot.

Neil · Jul 2, 2008

...............

mullyman · Jul 2, 2008

This is one area that the Japanese took care of. If the cue ball is a chalk's width or closer to an object ball you can call "PUSH" and shoot as any other shot. All foul rules still apply though, you have to hit a rail etc...
MULLY
a push out after the break is called "shoot out" here and is not allowed in amateur play

Patrick Johnson · Jul 2, 2008

Neil said:
Ob froze- cb must hit ob. After contact with ob, cb or some other ball must hit a rail or be pocketed. OB cannot hit same rail for a good hit, but must hit another rail if it is the only ball to contact a rail.

In the WPA's World Standardized Rules (which I think everybody should use), the OB can hit the same rail it's frozen to if it leaves that rail and then returns to it:

6.3 No Rail after Contact
If no ball is pocketed on a shot, the cue ball must contact an object ball, and after that contact at least one ball (cue ball or any object ball) must be driven to a rail, or the shot is a foul. (See 8.4 Driven to a Rail.)

8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be "frozen" to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent. See also Regulation 27, Calling Frozen Balls.

pj
chgo

GMAC · Jul 2, 2008

Thecoats said:
How do you play a frozen ball in your part of the country? I was playing last night and someone told me that if a ball if frozen they you can bump the ball and if the cue ball gets the same rail after contact that is a good hit. I always thought you had to go to another rail or hit the rail twice with either the object ball or the cue ball after contact. Just curious how you play this in your room.

Thanks in advance for any input.

-don

You have to go to another rail when it is the third attempt. for example, say the cue ball and object are close to the rail. And u bunt back and forth with ur opponent after three consecutive attempts you must go to another rail.

Bob Jewett · Jul 3, 2008

just about a said:
You have to go to another rail when it is the third attempt. for example, say the cue ball and object are close to the rail. And u bunt back and forth with ur opponent after three consecutive attempts you must go to another rail.

The "nurse safety" rule that you refer to was removed last January. It was much too complicated for even referees to understand. To replace it, all games now have a stalemate rule. This is especially a change for 14.1.

The official rules are available for free on-line at: http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_summary

Neil · Jul 3, 2008

.................

Patrick Johnson · Jul 3, 2008

Neil said:
I stand corrected. This is one shot I would like to see in slow motion. If you tap the frozen ball with the cb, does it leave the rail, or not???? I feel this new rule is opening up a can of worms. How can you judge if the ob left the rai or not???? (Besides the obvious times, of course.)

I think it's the same as the old rule, but clearer on this point. It would have to hit another ball to return to the rail - that's one way to tell.

[pucker up]
The new rules (written largely by Bob Jewett) are a huge improvement over the old ones.
[/unpucker]

pj
chgo

SteveH · Jul 3, 2008

D Player said:
I'm no rules expert, but I believe if the CB hits a frozen ball and then touches a rail (any rail), it is a good hit. I think the object ball can also touch any rail but it would first have to leave contact with the rail to which it is frozen, and then hit a rail (again any rail).

Very well could be different depending on which rules you play.

i agree here

klockdoc · Jul 3, 2008

Patrick Johnson said:
In the WPA's World Standardized Rules (which I think everybody should use), the OB can hit the same rail it's frozen to if it leaves that rail and then returns to it:

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:
I think it's the same as the old rule (but I'm not sure). It would have to hit another ball to return to the rail - that's one way to tell.

[pucker up]
The new rules (written largely by Bob Jewett) are a huge improvement over the old ones.
[/unpucker]

pj
chgo

Wondering? How does the ball return to the rail unless it hits another rail to rebound? Once it hit the other rail, it is already considered a good hit.

or

If you are straight on the OB and you shoot the CB into the frozen ball OB, could the OB hit the rail, bounce out, hit the CB and then return to the rail to count as a good hit?

Hope this is clear

Patrick Johnson · Jul 3, 2008

klockdoc said:
Wondering? How does the ball return to the rail unless it hits another rail to rebound?

Like this:

CueTable Help

If you are straight on the OB and you shoot the CB into the frozen ball OB, could the OB hit the rail, bounce out, hit the CB and then return to the rail to count as a good hit?

No. Think of what the CB does when it hits an OB: unless it has backspin, it changes direction by less than 90 degrees - usually much less (30 degrees is common with a rolling ball). An OB never has backspin on it, so it will never change direction by even 90 degrees after running into the CB (or into another OB), much less by 180 degrees. Most likely it will be rolling and will change direction by much less than 90 degrees (like I show in the diagram above).

pj
chgo

klockdoc · Jul 3, 2008

Patrick Johnson said:
Like this:

No. Think of what the CB does when it hits an OB: unless it has backspin, it changes direction by less than 90 degrees - usually much less (30 degrees is common with a rolling ball). An OB never has backspin on it, so it will never change direction by even 90 degrees after running into the CB (or into another OB), much less by 180 degrees. Most likely it will be rolling and will change direction by much less than 90 degrees (like I show in the diagram above).

pj
chgo

Thanks, Duh didn't think about another ball.

Now, being familiar with 1 pocket, you know the shot where the OB is frozen to the side rail (slightly above the side pocket. You double-kiss the ball and bank it into the corner pocket. Isn't this hitting the CB twice and the OB hitting the rail again after being frozen to it?

CueTable Help

Bob Jewett · Jul 3, 2008

klockdoc said:
... Now, being familiar with 1 pocket, you know the shot where the OB is frozen to the side rail (slightly above the side pocket. You double-kiss the ball and bank it into the corner pocket. Isn't this hitting the CB twice and the OB hitting the rail twice? ...

I think the OB hits the rail only once.

The direct kiss-back shot is on the Jacksonville Project video, and there is only one rail contact. One clip of this is at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-02.pdf -- it is surprising how far the object ball sinks into the cushion.

Maybe with a large cue ball it would be possible to get the object ball into the cushion twice, but I doubt it. For a full-on frozen ball hit, the cue ball would hit the object ball and drive it into the cushion. The cue ball would continue forward slightly since it is heavier than the object ball and doesn't stop completely. The object ball would finish sinking into the cushion, reverse direction, and hit the cue ball a second time. But the object ball would still be in the cushion because the cue ball would have advanced, "encroaching" the object ball's space.

For a light cue ball, the cue ball will bounce back from the object ball some and so will be clear of the object ball when the object ball leaves the cushion.

dr_dave · Jul 3, 2008

kiss-back action

Bob Jewett said:
I think the OB hits the rail only once.

The direct kiss-back shot is on the Jacksonville Project video, and there is only one rail contact. One clip of this is at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-02.pdf -- it is surprising how far the object ball sinks into the cushion.

Maybe with a large cue ball it would be possible to get the object ball into the cushion twice, but I doubt it. For a full-on frozen ball hit, the cue ball would hit the object ball and drive it into the cushion. The cue ball would continue forward slightly since it is heavier than the object ball and doesn't stop completely. The object ball would finish sinking into the cushion, reverse direction, and hit the cue ball a second time. But the object ball would still be in the cushion because the cue ball would have advanced, "encroaching" the object ball's space.

For a light cue ball, the cue ball will bounce back from the object ball some and so will be clear of the object ball when the object ball leaves the cushion.

Bob,

I'll try to film a bunch of different shots with various speeds, spins (top and bottom), ball masses, and maybe cue elevation to see if I can get the object ball to return to the rail. I doubt it, but it will be fun to try. I'll post the video when it is done.

Regards,
Dave

Frozen Ball Rule

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