Player evolution; Shaft pergatory

Beware_of_Dawg

Beware_of_Dawg

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Silver Member
So heres the situation. I play with a Predator Z shaft. Dont get me wrong, I love the shaft and have been playing with it exclusively for a couple years now and for the last few years, playing a lot. Ive improved ten fold in that time.

I think it may be time to move on.

To quality check my stroke mechanics, in the last few weeks I have been tinkering by practicing a few drills with a house cue and a few games with a buddys McDermott, and then I played a few games with the stock Lucasi shaft, and did a few other drills using a friend?s Joss with a 314-2 on it.

Let me tell you what Ive assessed?

With my Z, or maybe as a result of the sometimes ridiculously low deflection the Z offers I play the whole cue ball all the way to the edges. Maybe to fault, but I play truckloads of English.

What I noticed?

The Z is a dead hit, it takes a lot more effort to get the ball to shape multiple rail leaves or long stoke, full table leaves.

With any of the other cues it took very little effort and a shorter, easier stroke to get the desired leave. The cue ball jumps off of the other cues much more than it does the Z.

The result of having to stroke the ball harder with the Z in order to get the desired results effects stroke mechanics.

Not having to exert as much energy on the stroke quiets your basic fundamentals, if you have to stroke harder through the cue ball that brings into play many factors that can alter the exact spot your intending to hit on the cue ball.

But on the other hand, the Zs smaller tip (11.75) allows you to use a much more exacting aiming point on the cue ball. Couple that with the low deflection and you open up English and shape options that you could never hope to get with the bigger tips on the other cues.

I feel retarded using those huge tips; it feels like short bus pool to me. Everything has to be almost center ball and when you move outside of center deflection becomes a concern and comes into play very quickly. With the Z I fell like I have literally 20+ spots on the cue ball that I can choose and confidently make the object ball. With the big tips I feel lucky to have 5-6 spots.

So? I think its time I look for middle ground. I need a shaft that offers the action the dead Z just can?t give me so that I can use less effort to get around the table. A smoother more effortless stroke on the longer shots or shots that require the cue ball to get around the table will quiet my mechanics and make every stroke more fundamental sound.

But, I need the low deflection and small tip size (12.00 max) that the Z offer me so that I can continue to have the entire cue ball open when using various types of English.

So here I am. What to do? Does anyone have any suggestions on what kind of shaft they could recommend I consider?

I welcome any suggestions or comments about these assesments.

Thanks!
~D4\/\/G~
 
Have you tried a harder/different tip on your Z? Might make a bigger difference than you suspect.
 
The Z is a dead hit, it takes a lot more effort to get the ball to shape multiple rail leaves or long stoke, full table leaves.

With any of the other cues it took very little effort and a shorter, easier stroke to get the desired leave. The cue ball jumps off of the other cues much more than it does the Z.

The result of having to stroke the ball harder with the Z in order to get the desired results effects stroke mechanics.

Not having to exert as much energy on the stroke quiets your basic fundamentals, if you have to stroke harder through the cue ball that brings into play many factors that can alter the exact spot your intending to hit on the cue ball.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why you need to stroke harder with a Z shaft as opposed to other shafts.
 
Different Shafts

You may not to change shafts. You can try using a different tip and see what results you get. But in the end it is persoanl feel/preference that you are comfortable with. If you have become comfortable with the low deflection of the Z shaft, going to a standard shaft will throw your game off a bit till you get used to the deflection. I would try using either a softer or harder tip and see what feels better for you.
:dance: Keep on strokin!
 
kingwang said:
I don't understand why you need to stroke harder with a Z shaft as opposed to other shafts.
Click to expand...

Have you ever used one? it's got a dead hit. Very accurate, but not lively. If you were to take a Z and most other shafts and hook them to a machine that exerted in equal force stroke, the Z would come up short of the other shaft in distance vs. effort.

and thanks for the folks who recomended changing tips, but I need more specific advice on which tip. I can't exactly go changing tip 3 or 4+ times trying to find the desired result. As I mentioned I play with a triangle medium. What tip do you guys reccomend?
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
I play with a triangle medium, What would you recommend?
Click to expand...

Like most troubleshooting, try the extremes and then work from there.

What I'm saying is, try a Z shaft with a soft tip. Then try it with a very hard tip, perhaps a Moori P (Power) or Q (Quick). Which gives you the action you prefer?

You may or may not actually want to play with those tips, but at least you can see which gives you the action you are looking for and go from there. If you like the Moori Q action, maybe you'd like a Milk Dud, or a hard tip of some other brand. And likewise for soft tips.

You said you don't want to change tips 3 or 4 times. Why not?

To be honest your best bet would be to have a second Z shaft and do the tests on that shaft, so you can always quickly go back and compare with your original shaft.

Given what you're looking for, I have a feeling you'll prefer the hard tip.
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
Have you ever used one? it's got a dead hit. Very accurate, but not lively. If you were to take a Z and most other shafts and hook them to a machine that exerted in equal force stroke, the Z would come up short of the other shaft in distance vs. effort.
Click to expand...
This is the exact opposite of what most Z shaft users find, they get too much spin from the Z2.

I know a ton of guys with absolutely no stroke that can play 4 rail shape with the Z, just pointing and shooting.

You need to take the Triangle off and change it to Tiger Sniper.
 
Interesting to read this, I too switched to a Z2 shaft not long ago, maybe 4 - 5 months now. I have Schon cues, and not playing for 5+ years and having them sit caused some of my shafts to warp slightly. I know they can be straightened somewhat, but now that I live here in Jacksonville (Predator land) I'm surrounded, so I tried the 314-2 and Z2.

Like you, I found the 314-2 a bit too large for my liking - my old shafts had been whittled down to around 12.25 over time, and I had a billiard shaft made for 3-cushion that was even smaller (around 11.5 - 11.75) and a more conical taper, just like the Z2, so it was easy to adjust. And also like you, lately I've been questioning my choice, wondering if something else out there would be better, or more consistent, maybe even going with the larger diameter 314-2, or even getting one and having it taken down 1/4 or 1/2 mm, if that's possible on those shafts.

I agree, the Z2 shaft offers a slightly deader hit (I have the standard Everest tip, actually plays pretty well), although I can't say I feel like I have to slug the ball or anything to move it around the table, and I get the same amount of spin I've always gotten, it just feels a little more dead, kind of a thud upon impact rather than a crisp hit. I got used to that, though, and I play well with it, like the minimal deflection, and also like the pinpoint feeling. I tried a Joss the other day with a 314-2 shaft, and other than the thicker feeling, which I didn't like as much, I switched over fairly easily, I didn't notice a huge difference or anything and could aim, spin the ball, and play pretty the same as with the Z2. I even thought about switching, just to join the masses that use the 314-2.

I'm not sure if I'm just thinking maybe something else would be better, or more consistent, or what. I think a lot of the top players probably don't play with the Z2 because it is much smaller than a "normal" tip, and to anyone with larger hands it would feel like a toothpick. I certainly don't subscribe to some of the crap I hear around the pool room about the Z2 being less accurate, or giving you some uncontrollable amount of english, etc.

I think if Predator made a shaft in between the 314-2 and Z2, at around 12.25 or 12.3, I would be a happy camper. Maybe I'll bite the bullet one day and get a 314-2 and see how much I can safely take off of it - I thought I read that it can only be taken down so far because of the gluing process etc. Interested to see what others think as well...

Scott
 
14.1player said:
This is the exact opposite of what most Z shaft users find, they get too much spin from the Z2..
Click to expand...

Your misunderstanding I think. I can get a truckload of spin on the ball. The user that described it as a "thud" feeling when you make contact with the CB rather than a crisp hit is pretty close to what I mean.

Take cue one, hit centerball to the endrail a lag speed, take Z, hit centerball to the endrail at exact same lag speed. Cue one travels further everytime.
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
Your misunderstanding I think. I can get a truckload of spin on the ball. The user that described it as a "thud" feeling when you make contact with the CB rather than a crisp hit is pretty close to what I mean.

Take cue one, hit centerball to the endrail a lag speed, take Z, hit centerball to the endrail at exact same lag speed. Cue one travels further everytime.
Click to expand...

this difference isn't because of the z shaft specifically. assuming the same tip hardness and the same cue weight, the balls should travel the same distance. ferrule hardness, shaft stiffness will also have some effect on ball speed, but most likely inconsequential. perhaps your z shaft weighs less than the other shaft? i have a z shaft, and while it does have a hollow hit, it doesn't move the ball slower than other shafts.

if you like smaller tips, try the universal tx8 or the mcdermott i3, i hear they are both nice shafts as well
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
Your misunderstanding I think. I can get a truckload of spin on the ball. The user that described it as a "thud" feeling when you make contact with the CB rather than a crisp hit is pretty close to what I mean.

Take cue one, hit centerball to the endrail a lag speed, take Z, hit centerball to the endrail at exact same lag speed. Cue one travels further everytime.
Click to expand...

Interesting...the reason I asked my original question is because I use a Z-2 shaft and I have not felt this at all. I originally had a everest and now I put on a kamui M a week ago. I really think the tip is more of a problem than the Z, as been stated by previous posts.

Good luck!
 
go to muellers and have shaft custom maded for your cue with the taper and tip size you like. you can get a solid hard rock maple for 80 + shipping or bump up to a radial laminate for only 150 plus shipping. the custom shaft will be solid instead of hollow getting rid of that dead fealing your refering to. then have em do a shorty ferrule to bring down the front end mass/weight to retain the low squirt.

if you want to try a harder/stiffer tip than a triangle, try out a super pro. cheep well made layered water buffalo.

edit: heres the link to muellers extra shaft pricing page:
http://www.poolndarts.com/58-Professional-Cue-Repair-Extra-Shafts/

also if you check the web page in my sig, i put together a spreadsheet of common tips and thier hardness rating per muellers, or the ones that i could find and rough estimation based on how they felt to me for ones i couldnt (signification of aproximation noted next to them)
 
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So I guess you won't be wanting to try the Predator Fat shaft then huh? Lol. Well you might want to move up to a custom made LD shaft made to your specs that will give you the lively hit that your after. I'm sure there are several good cue makers that can make you one. Another option might be to try a ferrule-less shaft, with just a fibre pad, and the tip. I've heard that they're very low deflection, and I imagine would give you a lively hit as well.
 
trueblu8 said:
So I guess you won't be wanting to try the Predator Fat shaft then huh? Lol. Well you might want to move up to a custom made LD shaft made to your specs that will give you the lively hit that your after. I'm sure there are several good cue makers that can make you one. Another option might be to try a ferrule-less shaft, with just a fibre pad, and the tip. I've heard that they're very low deflection, and I imagine would give you a lively hit as well.
Click to expand...

I'll be darned. I have read about the Fat shafts by Predator but I must be living in a bayou because I stupidly thought that some dealers had just bought some Predator shafts that were a little thicker than most of the traditional size 314-2 shafts. Boy oh boy, what a dummy I am.:embarrassed2: Thanks for the heads-up. Sheesh.

I like playing with the 314-2 and think I may be staying with it for some time. I'm having good success with it and may even get a second shaft to match my Bender cue. I have to win a nice size tournament to justify another shaft as I already have five for the POW-MIA cue. :blush:

JoeyA
 
I switched to the 314-2 4 months ago after an exhaustive year long search for an LD shaft that felt like a standard Schon shaft. I tried the OB, the Z, Lucasi 8pc radial....which was real nice, but when I got a Schon STL-1 in trade that came with a 314-2 I screwed it together and knew within 10 balls it was right.

now to the point. I have played with other 314's that I did not like for some reason. So, maybe you want to hit with a few other Z's to see if it really is the shaft, or just that particular one.

good luck,
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
So heres the situation. I play with a Predator Z shaft. Dont get me wrong, I love the shaft and have been playing with it exclusively for a couple years now and for the last few years, playing a lot. Ive improved ten fold in that time.

I think it may be time to move on.

To quality check my stroke mechanics, in the last few weeks I have been tinkering by practicing a few drills with a house cue and a few games with a buddys McDermott, and then I played a few games with the stock Lucasi shaft, and did a few other drills using a friend?s Joss with a 314-2 on it.

Let me tell you what Ive assessed?

With my Z, or maybe as a result of the sometimes ridiculously low deflection the Z offers I play the whole cue ball all the way to the edges. Maybe to fault, but I play truckloads of English.

What I noticed?

The Z is a dead hit, it takes a lot more effort to get the ball to shape multiple rail leaves or long stoke, full table leaves.

With any of the other cues it took very little effort and a shorter, easier stroke to get the desired leave. The cue ball jumps off of the other cues much more than it does the Z.

The result of having to stroke the ball harder with the Z in order to get the desired results effects stroke mechanics.

Not having to exert as much energy on the stroke quiets your basic fundamentals, if you have to stroke harder through the cue ball that brings into play many factors that can alter the exact spot your intending to hit on the cue ball.

But on the other hand, the Zs smaller tip (11.75) allows you to use a much more exacting aiming point on the cue ball. Couple that with the low deflection and you open up English and shape options that you could never hope to get with the bigger tips on the other cues.

I feel retarded using those huge tips; it feels like short bus pool to me. Everything has to be almost center ball and when you move outside of center deflection becomes a concern and comes into play very quickly. With the Z I fell like I have literally 20+ spots on the cue ball that I can choose and confidently make the object ball. With the big tips I feel lucky to have 5-6 spots.

So? I think its time I look for middle ground. I need a shaft that offers the action the dead Z just can?t give me so that I can use less effort to get around the table. A smoother more effortless stroke on the longer shots or shots that require the cue ball to get around the table will quiet my mechanics and make every stroke more fundamental sound.

But, I need the low deflection and small tip size (12.00 max) that the Z offer me so that I can continue to have the entire cue ball open when using various types of English.

So here I am. What to do? Does anyone have any suggestions on what kind of shaft they could recommend I consider?

I welcome any suggestions or comments about these assesments.

Thanks!
~D4\/\/G~
Click to expand...

If I understand you correctly...

You want a shaft configuration that has "playability" with a hard hit and a 12mm diameter...

Then I suggest you go with a 12mm shaft with a schon taper but leave a little more "meat" on the back end of the taper length "due to 12mm dia." and use a very hard capped ferrule such as aegis or cerrusite....

In my past experience with building custom tapers and hits for players, I have intergrated all types of configurations to helping the customer get the "hit" "feel" and "playability" their looking for.... this is a pretty close configuration to giving you the best of both worlds considering the diameter of the shaft...

The tip at this point is pretty much preference as long as you don't use a soft one !

if I'm not receiving you correctly then please let me know, I CAN help you with achieving your goal regardless whether I do the work or you have a local cuesmith do the job !



- Eddie Wheat -321-631-1827
 
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