Arizona Ratings Convertions to ABC System Discrepencies - Opinions Wanted

BigCat

BigCat

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Hello All,

I am starting this thread to get some opinions. Recently, Roger Long, a BCA instructor and player here in the state of Arizona started a website that provides general information about pool in Arizona. Among some of the items on his website, he includes his opinion on what the Arizona ratings for players translates to in the ABC system.

http://www.arizbilliardsdirectory.com/conversions.html

I guess I am looking for feedback becasue I feel his ratings conversions are incorrect and have discrepencies. My biggest issue would be with the ABC system that he proposes. He suggests:


10-2 (A+) Top professional. World class player. Capable of winning major professional tournaments. Almost always finishes in the money in any tournament entered.
10-1 (A) Professional, or player possessing professional skills. Capable of winning local open tournaments. Usually finishes in the money in regional tournaments.
10 (A-) Semi-pro, or player possessing professional skills. Capable of winning or placing high in the money in local open tournaments.
9 (B+) Advanced. Very good position play, strategy and consistency. Top league player. Consistent competitor in local open tournaments.
8 (B) Advanced. Good position play, strategy and consistency. Good league player. Competitive in local open tournaments.
7 (B-) Intermediate. Fair amount of knowledge and experience, but inconsistent in execution. Average league player.
6 (C+) Intermediate. Has learned quite a few shots, but has a lot to learn about position play and strategy. Inconsistent.
5 (C) Novice. Has a grasp of the fundamentals, but does not know much about the physics of the game. Lower-level league player.
4 (C-) Novice. Very basic knowledge of the fundamentals. Knows almost nothing about position play. Lowest-level tournament player.
3 (D+) Novice. Knows little about the fundamentals, but might know a couple of shots. Average social player.
2 (D) Novice. May not know anything about the fundamentals or making shots. Non-competitive.
1 (D-) Novice. Knows nothing about the game except maybe a few rules of play.

I personally believe that the ABC system does not stop at the "A" level. I have seen many systems and the one that I best agree with is the system that incorporates levels above "A". Joe Tucker has such a rating system for his 10 ball test and it is something along these lines:

Pro
ShortStop
Open
A
B
C
D
Novice

To me, this seems to make more sense. Of course, I do realize that most rating systems are very subjective. But I was just hoping to get some feedback from the players in Arizona as well as other players from around the country on this issue. I really hope Joe Tucker reads this thread and chimes in as well.

If I were to categorize it and translate it to the Arizona ratings system, I would use something similar to this (I don't believe there are hard cut off lines for each of the ratings):

Pro_______= 10-2's and above
ShortStop_= low 10-2's and high/mid 10-1's
Open_____= low 10-1's and high/mid 10's
A________= low 10's
B________= 9's and high 8's
C________= mid/low 8's to mid 7's
D________= low 7's to high 5's
Novice____= 4's and 5's

Any thoughts or opinons? Any type of feedback is welcome.

Ray

Edit: Yes, I know I misspelled Conversions in the thread title :)
 
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I think the rating system needs more numbers to dial people in better,you have people who have the same number rating and are still a ball apart.In NY at the tournament I played in there was 13 I think different numbered ratings starting at 5 and going to 10+7 so people were dialed in to right where they should be and everyone had a chance to win.By the way I won split in the finals at Kolbys last night,had to beat Bobby Emmons to get to the finals. :smile:
 
BigCat said:
Hello All,

I am starting this thread to get some opinions. Recently, Roger Long, a BCA instructor and player here in the state of Arizona started a website that provides general information about pool in Arizona. Among some of the items on his website, he includes his opinion on what the Arizona ratings for players translates to in the ABC system.

http://www.arizbilliardsdirectory.com/conversions.html

I guess I am looking for feedback becasue I feel his ratings conversions are incorrect and have discrepencies. My biggest issue would be with the ABC system that he proposes. He suggests:


10-2 (A+) Top professional. World class player. Capable of winning major professional tournaments. Almost always finishes in the money in any tournament entered.
10-1 (A) Professional, or player possessing professional skills. Capable of winning local open tournaments. Usually finishes in the money in regional tournaments.
10 (A-) Semi-pro, or player possessing professional skills. Capable of winning or placing high in the money in local open tournaments.
9 (B+) Advanced. Very good position play, strategy and consistency. Top league player. Consistent competitor in local open tournaments.
8 (B) Advanced. Good position play, strategy and consistency. Good league player. Competitive in local open tournaments.
7 (B-) Intermediate. Fair amount of knowledge and experience, but inconsistent in execution. Average league player.
6 (C+) Intermediate. Has learned quite a few shots, but has a lot to learn about position play and strategy. Inconsistent.
5 (C) Novice. Has a grasp of the fundamentals, but does not know much about the physics of the game. Lower-level league player.
4 (C-) Novice. Very basic knowledge of the fundamentals. Knows almost nothing about position play. Lowest-level tournament player.
3 (D+) Novice. Knows little about the fundamentals, but might know a couple of shots. Average social player.
2 (D) Novice. May not know anything about the fundamentals or making shots. Non-competitive.
1 (D-) Novice. Knows nothing about the game except maybe a few rules of play.

I personally believe that the ABC system does not stop at the "A" level. I have seen many systems and the one that I best agree with is the system that incorporates levels above "A". Joe Tucker has such a rating system for his 10 ball test and it is something along these lines:

Pro
ShortStop
Open
A
B
C
D
Novice

To me, this seems to make more sense. Of course, I do realize that most rating systems are very subjective. But I was just hoping to get some feedback from the players in Arizona as well as other players from around the country on this issue. I really hope Joe Tucker reads this thread and chimes in as well.

If I were to categorize it and translate it to the Arizona ratings system, I would use something similar to this (I don't believe there are hard cut off lines for each of the ratings):

Pro_______= 10-2's and above
ShortStop_= low 10-2's and high/mid 10-1's
Open_____= low 10-1's and high/mid 10's
A________= low 10's
B________= 9's and high 8's
C________= mid/low 8's to mid 7's
D________= low 7's to high 5's
Novice____= 4's and 5's

Any thoughts or opinons? Any type of feedback is welcome.

Ray

Edit: Yes, I know I misspelled Conversions in the thread title :)
Click to expand...
Dude, Did you know you misspelled conversions in the title! :D:D:D:D

Looking at the scale it would be just like highschool C's all the way. :)

BVal
 
Fast Lenny said:
I think the rating system needs more numbers to dial people in better,you have people who have the same number rating and are still a ball apart.In NY at the tournament I played in there was 13 I think different numbered ratings starting at 5 and going to 10+7 so people were dialed in to right where they should be and everyone had a chance to win.By the way I won split in the finals at Kolbys last night,had to beat Bobby Emmons to get to the finals. :smile:
Click to expand...

Interesting... I could see how that would be advantagous. More rating slots, so in theory, people would settle more into what is closer to their actual playing speed. I agree with you that here in Arizona, 2 similar rated players can be almost a ball or 2 apart, in some cases, not all.

I also see a disadvantage as well though. With too many slots to fill, the burden of rating these players becomes more difficult. It could no longer be done by soemone at a lower rating, say a 7 or 8, because they just would not understand the subtle differences between the higher rated players.

I'm curious to know how the ABC system matches up to this rating system as well. I know that in the New York Area, the ABC system is vastly different than the ABC system out west in CA, AZ, TX, etc...

BTW, good job beating Bobby and snapping off the tourney. If you keep playing the way you are, someone on the committee just might take notice ;).

Ray
 
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BVal said:
Dude, Did you know you misspelled conversions in the title! :D:D:D:D

Looking at the scale it would be just like highschool C's all the way. :)

BVal
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Nah, not necessarily. I think a good/strong 8 should be considered a B player. And I know you are capable of playing at the speed. I think the real discrepencies in the translations/conversions lie in the upper ends of the scale.

For example, a shortstop player, imo, should be considered higher than an "A" player. Jay Helfert states that during his prime (and maybe later on), he played shortstop speed. I also think there is an Open speed. I think both of these categories belong above the typical "A" category. Just my opinion though.

Ray
 
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BigCat said:
Interesting... I could see how that would be advantagous. More rating slots, so in theory, people would settle more into what is closer to their actual playing speed. I agree with you that here in Arizona, 2 similar rated players can be almost a ball or 2 apart, in some cases, not all.

I also see a disadvantage as well though. With too many slots to fill, the burden of rating these players become more difficult. It could no longer be done by soemone at a lower rating, say a 7 or 8, because they just would not understand the subtle differences between the higher rated players.

I'm curious to know how the ABC system matches up to this rating system as well. I know that in the New York Area, the ABC system is vastly different than the ABC system out west in CA, AZ, TX, etc...

BTW, good job beating Bobby and snapping off the tourney.

Ray
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Yes he is a strong 10,I think he should be a 10-1,he had to give me the 7 which is a game I dont like,I know he gives alot of strong 9s the 7 for the $ and they dont like it.I think with the rating system and more numbers its a better idea but when it comes to the game spot for some tournaments if you had Mitch or Scott playing a 6 or something the amount of games would be to many so it wouldnt work for that I think,but it would be perfect for the ball spot tourneys.I think Bobby is looking for takers on an all around challenge match,is there any 10s looking to step up for the cash? :smile:
 
BigCat said:
Nah, not necessarily. I think a good/strong 8 should be considered a B player. And I know you are capable of playing at the speed. I think the real discrepencies in the translations/conversions lie in the upper ends of the scale.

Ray
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Scott Frost should be a 10-3. :grin:
 
Fast Lenny said:
Yes he is a strong 10,I think he should be a 10-1,he had to give me the 7 which is a game I dont like,I know he gives alot of strong 9s the 7 for the $ and they dont like it.I think with the rating system and more numbers its a better idea but when it comes to the game spot for some tournaments if you had Mitch or Scott playing a 6 or something the amount of games would be to many so it wouldnt work for that I think,but it would be perfect for the ball spot tourneys.I think Bobby is looking for takers on an all around challenge match,is there any 10s looking to step up for the cash? :smile:
Click to expand...

I don't know if anyone will take Bobby up on that (does he post on here). He is a bit of a headache to play (there are a lot of things that one would have to put up with in order to play him). I agree he is a very good player and a very good ball pocketer. However, I do not think that Bobby has the mental game and the correct attitude to play at a 10-1 speed. I know many that would agree with me on this issue, they just may not say it publicly. Not knocking Bobby, just telling it like it is. No offense to Bobby meant... he is very talented. He probably shoots better than I do.

As for ball weight tournaments vs. game weight tournaments. I personally don't like either of them. I think all tournaments should be of equal races. But I'm probably in the minority on this issue :wink: .

Ray
 
BigCat said:
I don't know if anyone will take Bobby up on that (does he post on here). He is a bit of a headache to play (there are a lot of things that one would have to put up with in order to play him). I agree he is a very good player and a very good ball pocketer. However, I do not think that Bobby has the mental game and the correct attitude to play at a 10-1 speed. I know many that would agree with me on this issue, they just may not say it publicly. Not knocking Bobby, just telling it like it is. No offense to Bobby meant... he is very talented. He probably shoots better than I do.

As for ball weight tournaments vs. game weight tournaments. I personally don't like either of them. I think all tournaments should be of equal races. But I'm probably in the minority on this issue :wink: .

Ray
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I think he is 10-1 in 9 ball and certainly one hole but in other games I am not sure.I have seen alot of 10s who he will give the 7 too,now thats strong!I dont know if he post on here but I sure would like to see him match up with another 10 in an all around,he is fun to watch as long as he stays humble and doesn't get pissy,me and him are cool so I dont see that side but have seen it with other players.
 
It's tough to pin someone's speed down!

And just when you think you have it close... you have the Barbox vs 9" ft differential to try and figure out!! Which can be a 2 rating swing in either direction.

I think the present system is adequate. Sure, it has flaws. But which don't?
 
Rick S. said:
It's tough to pin someone's speed down!

And just when you think you have it close... you have the Barbox vs 9" ft differential to try and figure out!! Which can be a 2 rating swing in either direction.

I think the present system is adequate. Sure, it has flaws. But which don't?
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree with you, Rick.

But I guess the reason I started this thread was to get opinions about the rating conversions to the ABC system.

Ray
 
BigCat said:
I absolutely agree with you, Rick.

But I guess the reason I started this thread was to get opinions about the rating conversions to the ABC system.

Ray
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Personally - I am more of a numbers kind of guy. Letters SUCK! Does that help at all? Even a little bit?

BVal
 
BVal said:
Personally - I am more of a numbers kind of guy. Letters SUCK! Does that help at all? Even a little bit?

BVal
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No... not really :cool: .

Ray
 
My $.02

I think you should throw out the + - below a B rated player. (Maybe even below A level)

The lower your rated the easier it is to play over your rating.

It is much harder to play A+ speed when your rating is A-, but really how much difference is there between a C- and a C+

Here is my conversions (for what its worth)

10-2 = A+ = Pro player
10-1 = A = Pro capable
10 = A- = Open
9 = B+ = No Mans Land
8 = B- = Rank Ameature
7 = C = Ameature
6 = C = Ameature capable

This is probablywhere I would stop but just for the heck of it if you wanted to add and additional level

Either 6 or 5 and under = D = Novice

I just think it is much easier for a 6 to play like a 7 (or even 8) than it is for a 10 to go to 10-1 (much less 10-2) on a givin night.

NOTE: My basis for this is like a lot of things I relate them to Golf handicap (which has the same similarity) It is much easier to go from shooting 85 to 80 than it is to go from 75 to 70...(not to mention how hard it is to go from 70 to 65)

The more levels you add (at the lower levels) the easier it is going to be for a low level player to shoot way over thier head.

JMO
 
I think the system currently in place is not perfect but Arizona is stuck with what they have until the Bar/Room Owners can a agree to revamp the Arizona Rating System, or DUMP IT.

Big changes could be on the horizon could , according to, recent published articles in Valley Billiards News.

Time will tell.:wink: Yes there are THREE Links to read.

FYI................:boring2:
 
BRKNRUN said:
I think you should throw out the + - below a B rated player. (Maybe even below A level)

The lower your rated the easier it is to play over your rating.

It is much harder to play A+ speed when your rating is A-, but really how much difference is there between a C- and a C+

Here is my conversions (for what its worth)

10-2 = A+ = Pro player
10-1 = A = Pro capable
10 = A- = Open
9 = B+ = No Mans Land
8 = B- = Rank Ameature
7 = C = Ameature
6 = C = Ameature capable

This is probablywhere I would stop but just for the heck of it if you wanted to add and additional level

Either 6 or 5 and under = D = Novice

I just think it is much easier for a 6 to play like a 7 (or even 8) than it is for a 10 to go to 10-1 (much less 10-2) on a givin night.

NOTE: My basis for this is like a lot of things I relate them to Golf handicap (which has the same similarity) It is much easier to go from shooting 85 to 80 than it is to go from 75 to 70...(not to mention how hard it is to go from 70 to 65)

The more levels you add (at the lower levels) the easier it is going to be for a low level player to shoot way over thier head.

JMO
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Ken,

So based on your post, it looks like you agree with Roger Long's conversions and not having anything above an "A".

That being said, where do you think a Shortstop player goes? Why do you think there should be not ranking beyond an "A"?

Ray
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
I think the system currently in place is not perfect but Arizona is stuck with what they have until the Bar/Room Owners can a agree to revamp the Arizona Rating System, or DUMP IT.

Big changes could be on the horizon could , according to, recent published articles in Valley Billiards News.

Time will tell.:wink: Yes there are THREE Links to read.

FYI................:boring2:
Click to expand...

This has nothing to do with what I asked in my original post. I know the ratings system has advantages and disadvantages.

What I asked about was Roger Long's conversions on his website.

Ray
 
BigCat said:
Ken,

So based on your post, it looks like you agree with Roger Long's conversions and not having anything above an "A".

That being said, where do you think a Shortstop player goes? Why do you think there should be not ranking beyond an "A"?

Ray
Click to expand...

No...I think you mis read...or I have really lousy communication skills

I think there should be

  • 3 A Levels (A+, A, A-)
  • 2 B Levels (B+ B-)
  • 1 C Level
  • Perhaps 1 D Level

The conversions are below...(Shortstop would fall in the 10-1 = A = Pro Capable Catagory)

10-2 = A+ = Pro player
10-1 = A = Pro capable
10 = A- = Open
9 = B+ = No Mans Land
8 = B- = Rank Ameature
7 = C = Ameature
6 = C = Ameature capable
 
BigCat said:
This has nothing to do with what I asked in my original post. I know the ratings system has advantages and disadvantages.

What I asked about was Roger Long's conversions on his website.

Ray
Click to expand...
Yeah stay on topic or stay out of the thread D PLAYER (CooCoo)!!!!

BVal
 
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