three foul technicality

E

enzo

Banned
i posted this elsewhere but didn't get a response and im really curious about it.........

if you tell a guy he's on two RIGHT when he makes his second foul, but don't tell him a thing the next time he comes to the table (ie on the shot of his potential third foul), can he technically get out of it. as the rule states it sounds like you are required to tell him he's on two as he approaches the table on his third would be foul. so the old jumping out of your chair and saying "you're on two" or "that's two" and then saying nothing next time he comes to the table should not cut it, technically anyway...... but i dont know hence the post. thanks!
 
Texas Express Rules state that all you need to do is tell your opponent he is on two fouls and get an acknowledgment.

WPA-World Standard Rules state that the Ref warns the player as he/she approaches the table for their shot.
 
enzo said:
i posted this elsewhere but didn't get a response and im really curious about it.........

if you tell a guy he's on two RIGHT when he makes his second foul, but don't tell him a thing the next time he comes to the table (ie on the shot of his potential third foul), can he technically get out of it. as the rule states it sounds like you are required to tell him he's on two as he approaches the table on his third would be foul. so the old jumping out of your chair and saying "you're on two" or "that's two" and then saying nothing next time he comes to the table should not cut it, technically anyway...... but i dont know hence the post. thanks!
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Why aren't links to the major rule sets available in a sticky post?

WPA Rules/Regulations

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_summary

6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls
If a player fouls three times without making an intervening legal shot, it is a serious foul. In games scored by the rack, such as nine ball, the fouls must be in a single rack. Some games such as eight ball do not include this rule. The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls. Otherwise a possible third foul will be considered to be only the second.

pj
chgo
 
Thanks Tom for that tidbit of important info, I didn't have that clarified in my mind.... it has been filed & recorded.
 
I've always played it where you need to warn the opponent before they shoot for the third time. Depending on how you play for the third foul there may be a lot of time elapsed so good form is to warn them before there final shot. It's really subjective though I'd bet.
 
If you look up the rule and don't share the info, only one person gains the info. What's wrong with sharing Patrick?

www.playbca.com BCA-League rules
www.wpa-pool.com World Standardized Rules
http://www.sevy.ca/Texas_Express_AN.pdf Texas Express Rules
http://www.poolplayers.com/materials.html APA rules
http://www.tapleague.com/rules.html TAP League Rules
http://www.vneapool.com/rules-regs.htm VNEA league Rules.



Patrick Johnson said:
Why aren't links to the major rule sets available in a sticky post?
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Tom In Cincy said:
If you look up the rule and don't share the info, only one person gains the info. What's wrong with sharing Patrick?
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Huh? I shared the link I looked up. And what does that have to do with my suggestion that the links you posted should be available to everybody here all the time? Wouldn't that be better than you having to post them each time a rules question comes up (more than once a day)?

pj
chgo
 
Yes.. it would be better than the few posters that provide the links and the text from the particular rule in reply to the Original Poster's rules questions.

I also think that the more 'rules' questions, the better informed players will be.

There are still TONS of players that think the game of 9 ball doesn't start until you hit the ONE ball.

Patrick Johnson said:
Huh? I shared the link I looked up.

I think the links you posted should be available to everybody here all the time. Wouldn't that be better than you having to post them each time a rules question comes up (more than once a day)?

pj
chgo
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Official BCAPL Response...

...and other info.

As for BCAPL: although the current wording of the BCAPL rules does not support requiring the timing of the warning to be as the table is being approached, the language of the 2009-2010 Edition has already been changed to make it so, and we are considering making it an interim change effective before publication of the next edition.

As for WSR, (outside of some subjective grammar) I do not believe that it is subjective at all. WSR Rule 6.14 excerpt:

"The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls." (emphasis added)

Although, strictly speaking, in the current construction of the sentence the entire phrase "is on two fouls when he comes to the table" modifies the object "shooter", I do not believe that is the intent. I think the emphasized wording above is meant to control the timing of the warning.

As observed elsewhere in the thread, under some circumstances, it may be a long time between the second foul and the approach to the table for the third attempt. That possibility makes it proper and defensible to require the warning as the player approaches the table.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Senior Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
:smile:

Find The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.4.3 and 9.4.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
 
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I disagree with the rule change. I used to tell the guy he's on two before he steps to the table for his potential third foul. Then I found myself ONLY warning him he's on two when I believed there was a high possibility of him fouling a third time. In other words, I didn't bother to warn him if I messed up my safety attempt and he could see the ball.

Until one day, when a guy miscued or pocket scratched (or whatever it was), and I didn't get the win because I didn't warn him. After learning that tough lesson, I then began to notice that when you warn someone they are on two when there's only a minuscule chance of them fouling, some people seem to take offense to that. Perhaps they figure I'm trying to shark them, or I'm being a nit, or disrespectful of their game. I don't know.

So that's the long and the short of why I like warning someone as soon as they are on two. It gets it out of the way, and there's no need to evaluate how likely the 3rd foul is, nor hurt anyone's ego, etc. Personally it feels like better sportsmanship to me.

I don't think I fully understand the rationale behind the rule change. The reasoning is to avoid the possibility of a long delay between the warning and the actual 3rd foul, right? But what is the problem with having that delay?
 
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enzo said:
i posted this elsewhere but didn't get a response and im really curious about it.........

if you tell a guy he's on two RIGHT when he makes his second foul, but don't tell him a thing the next time he comes to the table (ie on the shot of his potential third foul), can he technically get out of it. as the rule states it sounds like you are required to tell him he's on two as he approaches the table on his third would be foul. so the old jumping out of your chair and saying "you're on two" or "that's two" and then saying nothing next time he comes to the table should not cut it, technically anyway...... but i dont know hence the post. thanks!
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I had always understood the rule to be that you had to warn them some time between when they made their second foul, and actually shot their third shot. Now, thanks to the people who posted the WPA rule, I see that the rule, at least according to that organization, is that you have to tell them as they come to the table on their third inning in the sequence.

I think that the WPA's writing of that rule is such that the possibility for argument is greater than of, say, the Texas Express version of the rule.

About the original question, I'd have to say it's tough to answer. It depends on whose rules you're following, I guess. Unfortunately, until there is 1 standard set of rules that everyone follows, things like this will be subject to the tournament director's discretion (I assume you're talking about tournament play since, while gambling, you have no 3rd party enforcing the rules - you're basically on your own in deciding the rules that are being followed). If it were in a tournament that I were running, unless it was specifically stated that we were playing by WPA rules, I would call it a loss of game if the player was warned, and acknowledged, that they were on two fouls at some point between when the 2nd and 3rd fouls were committed.

jmo, as they say. :)
 
i get sick of hearing about this. once you tell him he's on two. make sure he acknowledges it. don't let it go until you're sure he knows he's on two. once that happens it's his own fault for being stupid. it's a b*tch move to try and get out of a loss. "oh - what - wait. on two - what. nooooooo you need to tell me when i am about to shoot not after i miss two". whatever - before the third, after the second, once you've been told (and you really shouldn't have to be told - you should be paying the f*ck attention yourself) you've been told. especially if you're playing in a tourney or gambling - you better know how many fouls you have. if you're playing with your friends for fun then it doesn't matter anyway and who cares.
 
Yeah, if he tries to get out of it, just flip out. Start cursing at the top of your lungs and call him a cheater. Make sure the whole room knows what happened. He'll never do it again.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Yeah, if he tries to get out of it, just flip out. Start cursing at the top of your lungs and call him a cheater. Make sure the whole room knows what happened. He'll never do it again.
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Good luck with that. LOL. Really it's up to the TD which rules are used, and for a rule change like this, if he's going to adopt it, it would be wise to announce it during the player's meeting. In fact, if I were the TD, if I adopted this rule (which I wouldn't), I'd probably announce it at the player's meeting for the next 5 years until it becomes common knowledge.

Anyway, if this rule is in place, and you freak out calling someone a cheater, trying to get a win without following the rules, then you're actually the one who's trying to cheat. ;)
 
Cuebacca said:
Good luck with that. LOL. Really it's up to the TD which rules are used, and for a rule change like this, if he's going to adopt it, it would be wise to announce it during the player's meeting. In fact, if I were the TD, if I adopted this rule (which I wouldn't), I'd probably announce it at the player's meeting for the next 5 years until it becomes common knowledge.

Anyway, if this rule is in place, and you freak out calling someone a cheater, trying to get a win without following the rules, then you're actually the one who's trying to cheat. ;)
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Cue, I'm sorry but if I told a guy he's on two and he tries to weasel out of it, I'm going to flip out. I'm going to call him names. I'm going to do it loud. This is no different than obviously fouling and saying, "Well, the call goes to the shooter and I thought it was a pretty good hit!" To hell with that. There are rules and there's what's right. Eventually, the tournament will be over and everybody in the room is going to look at that guy and remember he cheated. He's going to have to live with that.
 
Cuebacca said:
Good luck with that. LOL. Really it's up to the TD which rules are used, and for a rule change like this, if he's going to adopt it, it would be wise to announce it during the player's meeting. In fact, if I were the TD, if I adopted this rule (which I wouldn't), I'd probably announce it at the player's meeting for the next 5 years until it becomes common knowledge.

Anyway, if this rule is in place, and you freak out calling someone a cheater, trying to get a win without following the rules, then you're actually the one who's trying to cheat. ;)
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Seriously, you think I'm gonna say, "Boy, you're right! Wow, I shoulda told you again you were on two. Wow Joe, my bad. Let me try and get you on FOUR fouls in a row!"

I know a few guys that would beat the crap out of you if you pulled this move on them. Seriously, good luck in life if you plan to play this way. I think flipping out is about as civil as it gets.
 
The worst is when they try to argue to say it isnt two fouls when really they just need to pay attention. Then the next time you foul, they say, "Thats 1".
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Cue, I'm sorry but if I told a guy he's on two and he tries to weasel out of it, I'm going to flip out. I'm going to call him names. I'm going to do it loud. This is no different than obviously fouling and saying, "Well, the call goes to the shooter and I thought it was a pretty good hit!" To hell with that. There are rules and there's what's right. Eventually, the tournament will be over and everybody in the room is going to look at that guy and remember he cheated. He's going to have to live with that.
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Well, that's great that you're taking a stand for what you believe in, but usually when someone blows up at someone in the pool hall, they are the ones that end up having to live with that. Hopefully, though, the WPA rule writers will eventually notice of this backlash and change the rule back.

The problem is, we don't get to pick and choose all the rules we like. We are stuck with what the TD gives us, or what we agree to if we're matching up. I can't say that I'd try to get out of a loss if someone happened to me. I agree, it would feel dirty to me. On the other hand, I don't think your analogy is apt.

Obvious fouling is against the letter and spirit of the rules. Clearly this is different than the 3-foul warning, which has been intentionally changed by letter (and I guess by spirit too?).

What would be more analogous to this is someone coming from a bar that plays "straight 8" and then making a scene in the pool hall when someone plays safe on him, calling it "chicken shit pool", and saying "back in the day you could get your ass kicked for this".

Things change, and you don't have to like it, but it's better to be proactive, pay attention to the rules that you're stuck with and adapt rather than to throw a tantrums to bully people into getting your way. JMHO.
 
Cuebacca said:
Well, that's great that you're taking a stand for what you believe in, but usually when someone blows up at someone in the pool hall, they are the ones that end up having to live with that. Hopefully, though, the WPA rule writers will eventually notice of this backlash and change the rule back.

The problem is, we don't get to pick and choose all the rules we like. We are stuck with what the TD gives us, or what we agree to if we're matching up. I can't say that I'd try to get out of a loss if someone happened to me. I agree, it would feel dirty to me. On the other hand, I don't think your analogy is apt.

Obvious fouling is against the letter and spirit of the rules. Clearly this is different than the 3-foul warning, which has been intentionally changed by letter (and I guess by spirit too?).

What would be more analogous to this is someone coming from a bar that plays "straight 8" and then making a scene in the pool hall when someone plays safe on him, calling it "chicken shit pool", and saying "back in the day you could get your ass kicked for this".

Things change, and you don't have to like it, but it's better to be proactive, pay attention to the rules that you're stuck with and adapt rather than to throw a tantrums to bully people into getting your way. JMHO.
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This is where we beg to differ. There is playing by the rules and there's rule manipulation. A player has been told he's on two fouls. He acknowledged it. Then, he tells the referee that he was not informed at the correct time. So when I flip out over this, you're going to say I'm bullying? Cuebacca, think about this for one moment. If you were witness to this and had money on this, imagine how much you would be flipping out.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
This is where we beg to differ. There is playing by the rules and there's rule manipulation. A player has been told he's on two fouls. He acknowledged it. Then, he tells the referee that he was not informed at the correct time. So when I flip out over this, you're going to say I'm bullying? Cuebacca, think about this for one moment. If you were witness to this and had money on this, imagine how much you would be flipping out.
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Yes, I'd be flipping out because my horse didn't bother to pay attention at the player's meeting where they let you know about these things.

Again, I don't like the rule, and I actually would probably concede the loss to someone if it happened to me, but it's not like the rule is a typo or got changed accidentally. Not that I agree with the reasoning behind the the new rule. Keep in mind, I don't like it.

But what if I disagreed with having to warn the player at all? Should I flip out saying he knew he must have known he was on 2 and therefore I shouldn't have to warn him?
 
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