OTLB Rail extension
- Thread starter OTLB
- Start date
John.
I don't get it?
Jay
I don't get it?
Jay
Looks like a pocket enlargement to me. I don't get much call for those...LOL
Welcome back!
Jay
Welcome back!
Jay
OTLB said:
John,
How would you bond or laminate the "extensions" to the existing rail and cushion accurately? Wouldn't you need an exact match in your materials to get a proper finished product?
Do you have any of these extensions installed on tables? and if so how do they play? Sorry for all the questions, but, I've been doing rail extensions in the more traditional way for many years without problems, where is the advantage in your system? Inquiring minds want to know...
Jay
OTLB
Banned
well, it's sort of like taking a rail and cutting it on an angle. I will post pictures when I am done with it. I have cushions glued to liners. Much easier than putting on snooker bends.
Easier and same result as adding entire piece. Save customer money and you still make extra. Oh yeah, not alot of glue smell.
thanks John
Easier and same result as adding entire piece. Save customer money and you still make extra. Oh yeah, not alot of glue smell.
thanks John
Attachments
Only problem I see with this, is that if the pockets you're working on extending don't have the same miter cut that your extention does, for example suppose you're working on a GC5 like I did for Fatboy. In one corner pocket the right pocket angle was 50 degrees, whereas the left corner pocket angle in the same pocket was 52 degrees, and the down angles were 12 degrees, which I changed to 15 degrees. Then, unless you have sample rails to cut from, this extention won't work if the customer wants Artemis cushions, and the rails already have Brunswick Super Speed.OTLB said:
So, with out sounding negetive about your idea of sub-rail extentions, I don't really see this application working on to many tables, and in order to fit on certain tables, it has to be a perfect fit to what already exists. I mean, what about Olhausen, Diamond, Gandy and all other tables, would you have to have a made up rail to cut from for every different kind of table you're going to work on?
Glen
Glen
Heading to NY city in a couple of days, Maybe I'll stop by the shop on the way down.
Jay
Jay
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One other thing as well, how do you match up the new cushion rubber extention to the existing cushion, if who ever first installed the cushion and facings, sanded the end of the cushions and facings at a downward angle to begin with, the new cushion rubber will not match up with the old cushion rubber flush. And, how do you match up the new cushion with the old cushion, if the old cushion shows signs of shrinking and the new cushion extention sticks out past the nose of the old cushion rubber?
Glen
Glen
OTLB said:
John,
In my experience with Gold Crowns there is a large amount of variation from model to model, GC 1 to GC 5. Even within a specific model (GC 3 being the worst) they vary from year to year in liner profile, throat angle, down angle, poorly re applied cushions and all the past sins of BAD machanics...:angry: These problems are resolved when rail extensions are put on in the traditional way. As an example, the cushions have new rubber from end to end, The opening angles and down angles are corrected and uniform, and the age and condition of all the materials is the same...NEW.
There is a place where your extensions would be a quick and simple fix, but for that matter double shimming with facing is a cheap and economical way to make a pocket opening smaller. It's just not the correct way IMO.
I'll look at them in person at your shop, and maybe have a different opinion
but for now I see them as an interim step at best.
Remember, the customers paying for rail extensions to reduce the size of the pockets and make the table play tougher, as a rule is a better player and a more demanding customer to satisfy... I don't even attempt shortcuts, it will bite you in the @ss every time.
Jay
OTLB
Banned
Jay, You make good points:
There are basically 3 grades of doing this operation. Shims, my extensions (carry one stic with SS and one stick with what you think you will use the most.)and the complete overhual. Where possible I think I have created a road that allows the mechanic to elevate his skill level while still servicing the customer. Question is? could a player tell the difference with the cloth on. Well, I would bet on that. Therefor if you can save your customer money I think they will appreciate it.
Customer may only want the foot pockets tightened(onepocket). Now you don't break up a set and have given them an option they have not had before perhaps.
With a bit more imagination it may be possible to screw these in and be able to pop them off someday if you have to sell the table etc. Even more and guess what? we have billiard blocks. I need more time now to complete that.
I will say this, Bristol Billiards years ago had 3 tight tables that I did. Just about every Filopino from Ronnie, Santos, Efren played on these only. The contigent was staying with little George for almost a year. I triple shimmed them and they played great. Little George will vouch for this as well as the owner Steve. Johnny Archer played Santos on one of them for the Cash. SO these guys are players and they had no problem playing on shimmed pockets(they weren't hard durometer shims and shaped perfect) So does it even matter?? only from our eyes.
For the most part I think room owners could benefit from this type of job. Many of them that I have seen only use extra shims, I think this is better not best.
Your welcome to come by, I am in and out all week. Will show you my slate honing operation and electric scissors.
thanks OTLB
There are basically 3 grades of doing this operation. Shims, my extensions (carry one stic with SS and one stick with what you think you will use the most.)and the complete overhual. Where possible I think I have created a road that allows the mechanic to elevate his skill level while still servicing the customer. Question is? could a player tell the difference with the cloth on. Well, I would bet on that. Therefor if you can save your customer money I think they will appreciate it.
Customer may only want the foot pockets tightened(onepocket). Now you don't break up a set and have given them an option they have not had before perhaps.
With a bit more imagination it may be possible to screw these in and be able to pop them off someday if you have to sell the table etc. Even more and guess what? we have billiard blocks. I need more time now to complete that.
I will say this, Bristol Billiards years ago had 3 tight tables that I did. Just about every Filopino from Ronnie, Santos, Efren played on these only. The contigent was staying with little George for almost a year. I triple shimmed them and they played great. Little George will vouch for this as well as the owner Steve. Johnny Archer played Santos on one of them for the Cash. SO these guys are players and they had no problem playing on shimmed pockets(they weren't hard durometer shims and shaped perfect) So does it even matter?? only from our eyes.
For the most part I think room owners could benefit from this type of job. Many of them that I have seen only use extra shims, I think this is better not best.
Your welcome to come by, I am in and out all week. Will show you my slate honing operation and electric scissors.
thanks OTLB
Your pic reminded me that as was thinking about making some temporary inserts to turn a pool table into a carom table. Has anyone ever done this or have any suggestions. I was thinking it would not be that hard to do but I have never done it. Only difficult thing I can think of is making them stay put and yet be removable. I have seen pics of antique ones. Probably something that I will never get around to doing but maybe one day.
Options
John,
I respect your innovative solutions and thinking "outside the box"..:thumbup: As I wrote above I see this "fix" as an interim solution between shims and rail extensions. Within my existing customer base that's a market that would have to be developed. I have many customers with shimmed pockets. Most of the pool rooms I maintain have one or more shimmed tables. Rarely do I have a complaint from a player or proprietor about the work or playability of the tables. Rail extensions are for making a tight table (4.5 inch or less in the corners) play properly.
Brunswick Gold Crowns and other tables that come with 5 inch corners, when shimmed down to 4.5 inches and less, are to narrow in the back of the pocket relative to the front opening. To correct this problem the geometry of the original pocket openings must be changed as you know.
Therefore we have the economy fix with shims or the full and proper correction with extensions. I still preform both of these procedures regularly. I just did 9 sets of Gold Crown 3 rails for our friend Dave with double shims.
What I was questioning in your extensions was, do you see them as an alternative to full extensions or as an improved shimming process? Or a new niche, as you mentioned above, for the customer that may want them removed? or just the 2 corners done? If so you maybe onto something, but I don't think they fit the bill or compare to full extensions as your original post implies.
As far as great players being the judge and jury of good mechanical work, that is like saying a great fighter pilot knows best how to build and maintain jet engines and aircraft. Great players adapt to the playing conditions, our job is to make those conditions as perfect and uniform as possible. Unfortunately we are in the infancy of this process.
Jay
OTLB said:
John,
I respect your innovative solutions and thinking "outside the box"..:thumbup: As I wrote above I see this "fix" as an interim solution between shims and rail extensions. Within my existing customer base that's a market that would have to be developed. I have many customers with shimmed pockets. Most of the pool rooms I maintain have one or more shimmed tables. Rarely do I have a complaint from a player or proprietor about the work or playability of the tables. Rail extensions are for making a tight table (4.5 inch or less in the corners) play properly.
Brunswick Gold Crowns and other tables that come with 5 inch corners, when shimmed down to 4.5 inches and less, are to narrow in the back of the pocket relative to the front opening. To correct this problem the geometry of the original pocket openings must be changed as you know.
Therefore we have the economy fix with shims or the full and proper correction with extensions. I still preform both of these procedures regularly. I just did 9 sets of Gold Crown 3 rails for our friend Dave with double shims.
What I was questioning in your extensions was, do you see them as an alternative to full extensions or as an improved shimming process? Or a new niche, as you mentioned above, for the customer that may want them removed? or just the 2 corners done? If so you maybe onto something, but I don't think they fit the bill or compare to full extensions as your original post implies.
As far as great players being the judge and jury of good mechanical work, that is like saying a great fighter pilot knows best how to build and maintain jet engines and aircraft. Great players adapt to the playing conditions, our job is to make those conditions as perfect and uniform as possible. Unfortunately we are in the infancy of this process.
Jay
OTLB
Banned
In the case where the rubber is good I think these can be just as good as the full fix solution. If someone wants to add just one shim then I wouldn't even bother. But of course you can really never add just one shim as you need to replace the other and now your doing two shims. So with a bit more work now you have real rubber. You can also use the rail liner cushion method to cut wafers. There are various attributes to this method that lend more than just what I mentioned. The real issue here is the front of the pocket and the back liner has little to do with anything anyways. If the shelf was extremely deep then it would be more of a consequence. Once the ball leaves the surface its gone and it doesn't matter anyways IMO.(look at where we are talking on a table to see what I mean) When you review the back side of the ext near the rail this point is moot. You can add new rubber but the composition length of the extension near the rail liner behind the cushion is not as relative.
Your point of players adapting is very good. If guys were shooting into dead shims they wouldn't want to play on that table. If you triple shim or double shim with the wrong durometer they are not going to like it.
Sorry if I implied that this was a cureall. It is an option worth looking at. If you showed this to a customer and one side had shims and one had my ext what do you think they would want? If two tables were set up and one had my extensions and the other new rubber cut long, would you bet that players can tell the difference? I wouldn't.
So the answer is, improved method yes, alternative to full yes, is it substitute for a full blown rail mod, lets wait and see( I doubt it and you know why as we discussed before). If we had two sets of GC rails do you really think a player could tell the difference between the two mods. I think it does come down to the player\fighter pilot. The pilot could tell which jet was built better after he flew I am sure. But if he filled up from Getty or Sunoco he wouldn't know the dif.
The pilot doesn't have to know anything but his job.. He can tell if the jet has a problem and doesn't need to know why or be able to fix it. Of course it would help. Like being the Prsident, he doesn't have to know how to make bombs, just where to shoot them.
Titled the thread OTLB extension, I created it. I didn't say it was the way it had to be done and hope that noone ever feels that because I say something that I am saying you or anyone else has to do it this\that way.. Its hard for me to accept the norm. Guess thats why I have a GC V snooker table with 3 inch pockets. Really, if you can add snooker bends and they work, is there a reason why a skilled guy can't do this.
I brought this into the forum as a mechanic gesture, sharing another method that doesn't fit the norm but works. I am sharing some of my methods which is what people are asking me to do.
IS there a better way to do things, yes there is. Is there a better way if you don't think about one. no there is NOT. I could start another thread to address another method but I know everyone would probably disagree with it as it costs more money than the way they do it now. Much the same as your rail ext's arguement. There is a more professional way but getting the job done is also very important. There are more ways to do things then the std method as you know.
I developed these in my R+D room(my bathroom) to address the RKC challenge. Just watch me go into a poolroom and slap down some cloth with tac strips and rail ext's with these little guys, and then I will level the table with my laser. As I said he has inspired me. Some people work because of desperation, some from motivation some from inspiration etc.
Again, I am sharing and as I stated initially, this is only for your consideration.
Thanks John
Your point of players adapting is very good. If guys were shooting into dead shims they wouldn't want to play on that table. If you triple shim or double shim with the wrong durometer they are not going to like it.
Sorry if I implied that this was a cureall. It is an option worth looking at. If you showed this to a customer and one side had shims and one had my ext what do you think they would want? If two tables were set up and one had my extensions and the other new rubber cut long, would you bet that players can tell the difference? I wouldn't.
So the answer is, improved method yes, alternative to full yes, is it substitute for a full blown rail mod, lets wait and see( I doubt it and you know why as we discussed before). If we had two sets of GC rails do you really think a player could tell the difference between the two mods. I think it does come down to the player\fighter pilot. The pilot could tell which jet was built better after he flew I am sure. But if he filled up from Getty or Sunoco he wouldn't know the dif.
The pilot doesn't have to know anything but his job.. He can tell if the jet has a problem and doesn't need to know why or be able to fix it. Of course it would help. Like being the Prsident, he doesn't have to know how to make bombs, just where to shoot them.
Titled the thread OTLB extension, I created it. I didn't say it was the way it had to be done and hope that noone ever feels that because I say something that I am saying you or anyone else has to do it this\that way.. Its hard for me to accept the norm. Guess thats why I have a GC V snooker table with 3 inch pockets. Really, if you can add snooker bends and they work, is there a reason why a skilled guy can't do this.
I brought this into the forum as a mechanic gesture, sharing another method that doesn't fit the norm but works. I am sharing some of my methods which is what people are asking me to do.
IS there a better way to do things, yes there is. Is there a better way if you don't think about one. no there is NOT. I could start another thread to address another method but I know everyone would probably disagree with it as it costs more money than the way they do it now. Much the same as your rail ext's arguement. There is a more professional way but getting the job done is also very important. There are more ways to do things then the std method as you know.
I developed these in my R+D room(my bathroom) to address the RKC challenge. Just watch me go into a poolroom and slap down some cloth with tac strips and rail ext's with these little guys, and then I will level the table with my laser. As I said he has inspired me. Some people work because of desperation, some from motivation some from inspiration etc.
Again, I am sharing and as I stated initially, this is only for your consideration.
Thanks John
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Thanks for the idea's OTLB. I thought I was the only one taking advantage of the bathroom. I have a set of snooker rails drying in mine right now for a delivery tommorow.
I'm considering them
John,
Please don't misinterpret my questioning your new method of tightening pockets with any disrespect to your ability's as a mechanic. I'm on record in previous posts as a supporter of your R+D no matter where it's done..LOL
Again I'm only trying to clarify the following questions... Where would this style of shim be best used?... When would I use them? ...How would I apply them accurately?... Why are they better then just replacing standard facing with a thicker one?... (which is how I double shim) Why these instead of just thicker facings?... What are the impacts on the playing surface, specifically the pocket opening geometry?
If I ask about potential problems with your extensions please view it as an oppotunity to enlighten. As I stated in the posts above, their may be a niche market for this exact fix.
I'll see them at your shop this week hopefully.
Jay
PS... The person that has to know if a job is done right is the mechanic. What most customers find acceptable is a minimal standard at best.
OTLB said:
John,
Please don't misinterpret my questioning your new method of tightening pockets with any disrespect to your ability's as a mechanic. I'm on record in previous posts as a supporter of your R+D no matter where it's done..LOL
Again I'm only trying to clarify the following questions... Where would this style of shim be best used?... When would I use them? ...How would I apply them accurately?... Why are they better then just replacing standard facing with a thicker one?... (which is how I double shim) Why these instead of just thicker facings?... What are the impacts on the playing surface, specifically the pocket opening geometry?
If I ask about potential problems with your extensions please view it as an oppotunity to enlighten. As I stated in the posts above, their may be a niche market for this exact fix.
I'll see them at your shop this week hopefully.
Jay
PS... The person that has to know if a job is done right is the mechanic. What most customers find acceptable is a minimal standard at best.
OTLB
Banned
Give me a couple of weeks to put together some footage in my recording studio. When you think about it you will discover even more answers to your questions. I have no problem with your comments as they are always constructive. Hope you don't mind 2000 watts while we play, I 'll even make popcorn and you can review my new toolbox.
Off to the gym, bye John
Never mentioned this but another one of my business's is Potluckparties.com
Can you imagine, the best job in the world. I get paid to party and play pool
Off to the gym, bye John
Never mentioned this but another one of my business's is Potluckparties.com
Can you imagine, the best job in the world. I get paid to party and play pool
Attachments
John,
I'll be leaving Wednesday with Dave for NY. Will call you the day before to confirm. 8 Gabriel Imperators 9 Gold Crowns 1 Hollywood (carom) 5 stops finishing up in Virginia Beach VA. 8 days 1200 miles...
Jay
I'll be leaving Wednesday with Dave for NY. Will call you the day before to confirm. 8 Gabriel Imperators 9 Gold Crowns 1 Hollywood (carom) 5 stops finishing up in Virginia Beach VA. 8 days 1200 miles...
Jay