To all SPF students: Pix = 1000 words
- Thread starter randyg
- Start date
It is nice to see Efren acknowledged by an SPF instructor for his fundamentals
Randy:
This is very nice to see -- an SPF instructor acknowledging Efren's fundamentals. All too often (at least in the past; haven't seen it recently), Efren was used as an "Exhibit A" of "extremely unique and not-to-be-copied" fundamentals -- his name often being grouped together with names like Keith McCready and Francisco Bustamante. However, in stark contrast to those "other" names, Efren's only "flaws" in fundamentals -- if you want to call them "flaws" (I personally don't think they are) -- is his retrograde wrist (i.e. bent slightly inwards towards his body) and the fact Efren has no pause on his final delivery stroke. (In fact, Efren pauses with tip at the cue ball, then takes one final practice stroke and immediately goes into his delivery stroke without a pause in-between. That final practice stroke seems to be a "bridge friction lessening" or "wrist-loosening" stroke in preparation for the final delivery or something.)
I happen to think Efren's fundamentals are fantastic. After watching numerous videos of him playing (as well as watching him play in person -- paying close attention when behind him on a shot, watching his grip hand and cue delivery), his cue delivery is laser-straight. This can be seen quite visibly in Accu-Stats videos during some of the overhead camera angles -- the cue is delivered like a solenoid or piston.
I think all too often, Efren is "lumped in" with other players with unorthodox fundamentals, when in actuality, Efren's (and Alex Pagulayan's) fundamentals are in stark contrast. Just compare Efren's fundamentals with, oh, say, Francisco Bustamante, who has a windmill stroke with a loop in it:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mbtMvF8QNro
Big difference between the two!
Anyways, that's my two cents (probably not worth even that much),
-Sean
Randy:
This is very nice to see -- an SPF instructor acknowledging Efren's fundamentals. All too often (at least in the past; haven't seen it recently), Efren was used as an "Exhibit A" of "extremely unique and not-to-be-copied" fundamentals -- his name often being grouped together with names like Keith McCready and Francisco Bustamante. However, in stark contrast to those "other" names, Efren's only "flaws" in fundamentals -- if you want to call them "flaws" (I personally don't think they are) -- is his retrograde wrist (i.e. bent slightly inwards towards his body) and the fact Efren has no pause on his final delivery stroke. (In fact, Efren pauses with tip at the cue ball, then takes one final practice stroke and immediately goes into his delivery stroke without a pause in-between. That final practice stroke seems to be a "bridge friction lessening" or "wrist-loosening" stroke in preparation for the final delivery or something.)
I happen to think Efren's fundamentals are fantastic. After watching numerous videos of him playing (as well as watching him play in person -- paying close attention when behind him on a shot, watching his grip hand and cue delivery), his cue delivery is laser-straight. This can be seen quite visibly in Accu-Stats videos during some of the overhead camera angles -- the cue is delivered like a solenoid or piston.
I think all too often, Efren is "lumped in" with other players with unorthodox fundamentals, when in actuality, Efren's (and Alex Pagulayan's) fundamentals are in stark contrast. Just compare Efren's fundamentals with, oh, say, Francisco Bustamante, who has a windmill stroke with a loop in it:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mbtMvF8QNro
Big difference between the two!
Anyways, that's my two cents (probably not worth even that much),
-Sean
Sean...Efren does have a pause, at the end of his final backswing. It's just not defined (read: long), like Allison or Buddy. ALL poolplayers pause between the end of the backswing, and the transfer to the forward stroke. Good ones do it on purpose. The pause in the backswing is not a function of how long it lasts...it's a function of how smooth the transition from backwards to forwards is. Mine is just like Efren's...quick and smooth. Now if I could only HOPE to play like he does! 
:grin:
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
:grin:Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
"Definition" of pause between backstroke and delivery stroke?
Scott:
Maybe I should've said that Efren's pause was not well defined as, oh, say, Buddy or Shane or Allison. You're right -- there *has* to be a pause in there somewhere, as the backward motion transitions into forward motion.
Now, without hijacking the "look at Efren's finish" thread (but still keeping it on the SPF topic) -- how would you classify Mika Immonen's very pronounced locomotive stroke, where his backarm is in constant motion, like the wheel pushrods on old steam locomotives? Mika's back hand never really stops (even though the backward motion of the cue does indeed stop), but instead his back hand goes circularly from backward motion, to upward motion, to forward motion and through the cue ball.
Would this be classified as a pause?
Very interesting topic!
-Sean
Sean...Efren does have a pause, at the end of his final backswing. It's just not defined (read: long), like Allison or Buddy. ALL poolplayers pause between the end of the backswing, and the transfer to the forward stroke. Good ones do it on purpose. The pause in the backswing is not a function of how long it lasts...it's a function of how smooth the transition from backwards to forwards is. Mine is just like Efren's...quick and smooth. Now if I could only HOPE to play like he does!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott:
Maybe I should've said that Efren's pause was not well defined as, oh, say, Buddy or Shane or Allison. You're right -- there *has* to be a pause in there somewhere, as the backward motion transitions into forward motion.
Now, without hijacking the "look at Efren's finish" thread (but still keeping it on the SPF topic) -- how would you classify Mika Immonen's very pronounced locomotive stroke, where his backarm is in constant motion, like the wheel pushrods on old steam locomotives? Mika's back hand never really stops (even though the backward motion of the cue does indeed stop), but instead his back hand goes circularly from backward motion, to upward motion, to forward motion and through the cue ball.
Would this be classified as a pause?
Very interesting topic!
-Sean
I think you need to watch Efren some more - he does NOT bring his cue back perfectly straight.
The two players who bring the cue back straight were Cole Dickson (what a pure stroke!) and maybe SVB, who I haven't really watched him that much.
I also noticed on ESPN that Tony Robles brings it back pretty straight too.
And let's not forget Allision Fisher. Seems like Buddy Hall brings it back slow and straight.
I think Efren has always possessed great fundamentals...that is, if we look at those four things that are absolutely fundamental (necessary) for accuracy and consistency: Straight Alignment, Level Cue, Staying Down, and Following Through. The rest (grip, bridge, pause, etc.) are all mechanics that make up one's particular stroke, and the SPF method is the best way to "package" mechanics for the most consistent stroke.
Correct me if I'm wrong Randy, but I think you was trying to point out that Efren seems to now be using the SPF method of stroking; something he didn't used to do.
Roger
Good point Roger. I don't think Efren has changed his delivery process. I think he used SPF before SPF was coined.
What I was trying to point out is: Here is a World Champion, frozen in frame, with a "perfect" Finish position. We try to teach this to all of our students, find their personal Finish position. Efren just showed us his.....SPF=randyg
Exactly what I was going to say, Pops! But I figured I'd better let the Master answer first! SPF and the PST (personal shooting template) are probably a couple of the greatest innovations, and advantages, to teaching yourself how to play successfully...because they work to the benefit of each individual. I'm glad I could make a difference...like you have! :grin:
Scott Lee ~ Grasshopper
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee ~ Grasshopper
www.poolknowledge.com
Question about "knuckles up"
Randy:
Again, thank you for pointing out this great demonstrative moment in time frozen for us all to see and learn.
One minor question; in your original post, you use the phrase "knuckles up." At first glance, "knuckles up" to me would mean the back of the hand pointing up towards the sky, much like Keith McCready's sidearm/palm-facing-floor style. But after looking at the picture, and in combination with your "loose cradle" phrase, I *think* I know what you mean, but I wanted to verify.
So, does the phrase "knuckles up" mean that the line of knuckles are on the side of the cue (not underneath), and the line itself is tilted towards the sky, indicating the wrist is in line with the forearm (and not bent to be perpendicular with the cue, which would indicate flexion in the wrist)?
P.S.: some great pics of Efren here, showing various stages of his stroke (including the retrograde [slightly turned inwards towards his body] wrist position: http://azbilliards.com/gallery/showplayergallery.php?playernum=228
-Sean
Randy:
Again, thank you for pointing out this great demonstrative moment in time frozen for us all to see and learn.
One minor question; in your original post, you use the phrase "knuckles up." At first glance, "knuckles up" to me would mean the back of the hand pointing up towards the sky, much like Keith McCready's sidearm/palm-facing-floor style. But after looking at the picture, and in combination with your "loose cradle" phrase, I *think* I know what you mean, but I wanted to verify.
So, does the phrase "knuckles up" mean that the line of knuckles are on the side of the cue (not underneath), and the line itself is tilted towards the sky, indicating the wrist is in line with the forearm (and not bent to be perpendicular with the cue, which would indicate flexion in the wrist)?
P.S.: some great pics of Efren here, showing various stages of his stroke (including the retrograde [slightly turned inwards towards his body] wrist position: http://azbilliards.com/gallery/showplayergallery.php?playernum=228
-Sean
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Sean,
That is exactly what Randy is referring to. Draw a line between the top knuckles of the little finger and fore finger and this line should be pointing downward toward he floor and ceiling. I was taught this by these guys last summer and it was one of the things I was doing correctly at the start. :grin: No doubt because I'd had lessons from Scott before.
Thanks for pointing out the great visual Randy!
Brian in VA - spf devotee
Exactly!
In a Pendulum Stroke:
SET: When the tip is stopped close to the cue ball, the back arm should be perpendicular (90 degrees) to the cue stick. The knuckles should be parralel with the cue and directly under the elbow.
In the back stop (PAUSE position) the knuckles should be pointing down every so slightly.
At moment of contact the knuckles should be parallel with the cue stick.
At he end of the stroke (FINISH position), knuckles up (to your chin) just like the picture.
SPF=randyg
Which "set" of knuckles -- first or second?
Randy:
Thanks again! Great break-down explanation. Reading it, though, I think we were referring to two different sets of knuckles. I was referring to the set of knuckles visible from the side of the cue, the knuckles that you would use if you were to punch something. (These naturally would be visible from the side, and not curled underneath which would indicate the wrist bent too sharply inwards towards the body.) Were you referring to that set of knuckles as well?
The reason I ask, is the "...knuckles should be parallel with the cue and directly under the elbow..." part. This seems to indicate the second set of knuckles, which would be located under (and supporting) the cue. (The same set of knuckles one would use to give someone a "knoogie" on the top of their head while in a headlock.) This second set of knuckles are the only set of knuckles that would be "directly under the elbow," since the primary [punching] knuckles are on the side of the hand facing outwards.
EDIT: just saw "Brian in VA"'s post, and methinks he clarified which set it was.
-Sean
Randy:
Thanks again! Great break-down explanation. Reading it, though, I think we were referring to two different sets of knuckles. I was referring to the set of knuckles visible from the side of the cue, the knuckles that you would use if you were to punch something. (These naturally would be visible from the side, and not curled underneath which would indicate the wrist bent too sharply inwards towards the body.) Were you referring to that set of knuckles as well?
The reason I ask, is the "...knuckles should be parallel with the cue and directly under the elbow..." part. This seems to indicate the second set of knuckles, which would be located under (and supporting) the cue. (The same set of knuckles one would use to give someone a "knoogie" on the top of their head while in a headlock.) This second set of knuckles are the only set of knuckles that would be "directly under the elbow," since the primary [punching] knuckles are on the side of the hand facing outwards.
EDIT: just saw "Brian in VA"'s post, and methinks he clarified which set it was.
-Sean
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Randy,
I beg to differ. To me the picture shows Efren at almost the beginning of his forward stroke, (I think you might call it his SET Position)not at the finish position. He has a rather long bridge and it appears at least to me that his head is above the rail and his head is just above the joint of the cue. If he was in the finish position I feel the joint of the cue would be much farther away from his head and rail.
That being said, Efren looks good just staring at the table.
Look at the following picture which shows him in the starting position and note the position of his head.
http://azbilliards.com/gallery/showplayergallery.php?playernum=228
JoeyA
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Sorry my friend. That joint is at least 6-8 inches in front of his chin.
You see so much of Efren, why don't you give us a sequence on his stroke from start to finish. Maybe a video camera? That's a good job for you JoeyA.
By the way. I have another Pool School scheduled in Houma end of the Summer. We will make plans for supper...ok? SPF=randyg
You see so much of Efren, why don't you give us a sequence on his stroke from start to finish. Maybe a video camera? That's a good job for you JoeyA.
By the way. I have another Pool School scheduled in Houma end of the Summer. We will make plans for supper...ok? SPF=randyg