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03-04-2010, 06:03 AM

After hitting the cb........


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03-04-2010, 07:00 AM

Maybe we are considering the wrong things here. All this talk about a "straight" stroke is a little misleading. The purpose of a pendilum stroke is to make sure the cue moves forward on a straight plane toward the target. Yes, there is an arc that causes the grip and, and therefore the tip, to have some up and down movement along the way. This is actually insignificant if your set position is correct. By setting correctly, the tip makes contact when the grip hand is at the bottom of the arc, and should be precisely where you had it at set. We all agree that what the cue does after the cue ball is gone doesn't affect the shot, so the downward movement once the cue ball is gone won't change anything. The tip will be traveling at it's most level point when it makes contact.
The advantage of a pure pendilum stroke is is limits or eliminates the side to side motion of the grip hand, and therefore limits or eliminates any unwanted side spin on the cue.

In reading through this thread, one thing is obvious. There are those who accept this, and those who don't. Unless you have tried both, you have no way of knowing which works best for you. Open minds allow us to try new things, and perhaps find something better than what we already know. If you already have a perfect stroke, then nothing anyone says is going to change your mind.

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03-04-2010, 07:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratta View Post
@Siz,

yes- thats just it ī:-)
that was a good explanation. To me as long as the shooter completes the stroke w/o an elbow drop, the length of stroke is never going to change. Sure you can move your grip hand forward or back on the cue stick, but your stroke comes from your arm and the distance it travels until the hand hits the finish spot at the chest.

Even if I get down with a stick that is 70" long....my stroke is still going to be the same when fully completed.

The tip should always be placed right in front of the CB, and the grip hand should be on the hip. If this is done then your body will be in the correct position forcibly achieving a 90ļ angle of the stroking arm when contact is made with the CB.

Now the bridge length can most definitely change. But the cue should move forward or back in the grip accordingly. This is done by just placing your grip hand WHERE EVER YOU WANT IT on the cue stick. THe tip of the stick then goes to the face of the CB and the grip hand is at the side of your hip.

Doing that will give the result of always having the same tip penetration distance after contact with the CB. For me this is right at 7". I can't change that distance w/o either

1)dropping the elbow which lets the grip hand slide and finish farther forward of your typical finish point when using the pendulum stroke/or I do not complete the stroke and stop the grip hand b/f the finish spot at the chest (also known as bunting)

2)The stick is too far forward or backwards in the grip hand, which means your standing too close or too far away from the shot (remember the tip always goes to the CB, never change that). Results will show contact either prior to the 90ļ position or after it. The former would result in a shorter CB penetration distance and the latter would give a longer penetration distance.


Now to heres my thoughts on why a pendulum stroke (arc) when compared to a vector style stroke (piston).

#1) its more difficult to hit or even find any finish spot using a piston stroke, the forarm and hand of the stroking arm SLIDES across the face of the chest and you stop it manually, there is no Mechanical Dead End with this stroke which functionally eliminates the finish spot leaving you with more to do physically. (I know it happens after tip contact but your still having to do more physical work regardless)

When compared to the Pendulum there is a DEFINATE Finish Spot, it functions as a Mechanical Dead End. You don't stop your stroke, using the pendulum stroke the grip hand runs into a brick wall and has no choice but to stop. This happens b/c the arc that the hand traveles in (which is created at the elbow) causes the grip hand to come square into the face of the chest and the hand can not continue forward.

1a) Taking this into consideration it is mechanically more complicated to use a piston style stroke, consistency is also effected and exact mechanical movements b/c more difficult as well.

1b)The Piston style stroke also puts more stress on the mechanical timing of the stroke directly effecting the start/stop of the differing mechanical motions that make up the whole stroke. You have to time the drop of the elbow to coincide with the forward delivery of the hand to keep the stroke LEVEL. The elbow has to drop "X" distance in relation to the distance the grip hand traveles forward.

The farther the grip hand goes the lower the elbow must drop. Instead of having a consistent one motion delivery as is with the pendulum, the piston involves 2 movements that must work in sync to properly hit the shot.


This combination of movements is mathematically exponential in regards to degree of difficulty. If the pendulum has a value of 1 in regards to how involved you have to be to make it work, then we would figure that since there are two movements in the piston stroke that it would just be twice as difficult mechanically. This is not the case, the two separate movements may have individual values of 1 but we need another value for the equation. Lets call it compound movement synchronization now just to be easy we are going to give it a value of 1 also.

Using simple math we can see that the Piston Stroke is AT LEAST 300% more difficult of a mechanical motion to consistently produce accurate results with. Its just that much more involved.

You could say that with the Piston stroke you could hit the CB at any position since the cue does not stroke in an arc, as a result of the compound movement of the upper and lower arm the stick strokes on a level course. Then you still have to perform that compound movement!

With the pendulum stroke all you have to remember is TIP to the CB and grip hand at the hip! When you drop down your automatically set up in the proper mechanical position for your bodies dimensions. You pull the cue stick back and then deliver the forward stroke and THATS IT! The hinge which is the elbow lets the forearm and hand swing from the fixed point directly to where the Tip needs to be delivered, then as if we weren't lucky enough the stroke will be suddenly stopped at the perfect spot AUTOMATICALLY, no need for personal or mental influence....your body does the work for you.

Piston Stroke -mechanically more complex, and more involved conscious effort is needed to attain the same consistency found in the pendulum stroke.

Pendulum Stroke -when set up correctly the only thing required to perform is to pull the hand back and then throw it forward, whereupon the body does the rest for you. From proper tip placement in regards to the grip arm at contact with CB(90ļ), to a completed stroke IT'S ALL DONE FOR YOU, and a proper set up further ensures that the shooter can only have one result....THE CORRECT ONE.

With a good set up technique the Pendulum Stroke is very easy and very effective. Improper set up can cause the shooter to add components to this stroke which will compromise its effectiveness.

Remember Set it up and let your body do the job its perfectly designed for. Set it up and then pull the grip hand back then deliver the hand forward and your chest will complete the job task for you.

best wishes,
Grey Ghost


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can't resist - 03-04-2010, 09:45 AM

GG,

I enjoy your posts but there is too much bias here not to put up the opposing side of the picture. Note that this post of mine is purely in the nature of somewhat less than serious debate. While the points are basically true, there is a bit of exaggeration just as in your post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by greyghost View Post
that was a good explanation. To me as long as the shooter completes the stroke w/o an elbow drop, the length of stroke is never going to change. Sure you can move your grip hand forward or back on the cue stick, but your stroke comes from your arm and the distance it travels until the hand hits the finish spot at the chest.

Even if I get down with a stick that is 70" long....my stroke is still going to be the same when fully completed.

The tip should always be placed right in front of the CB, and the grip hand should be on the hip. If this is done then your body will be in the correct position forcibly achieving a 90ļ angle of the stroking arm when contact is made with the CB.

Now the bridge length can most definitely change. But the cue should move forward or back in the grip accordingly. This is done by just placing your grip hand WHERE EVER YOU WANT IT on the cue stick. THe tip of the stick then goes to the face of the CB and the grip hand is at the side of your hip.

Doing that will give the result of always having the same tip penetration distance after contact with the CB. For me this is right at 7". I can't change that distance w/o either

1)dropping the elbow which lets the grip hand slide and finish farther forward of your typical finish point when using the pendulum stroke/or I do not complete the stroke and stop the grip hand b/f the finish spot at the chest (also known as bunting)

2)The stick is too far forward or backwards in the grip hand, which means your standing too close or too far away from the shot (remember the tip always goes to the CB, never change that). Results will show contact either prior to the 90ļ position or after it. The former would result in a shorter CB penetration distance and the latter would give a longer penetration distance.


Now to heres my thoughts on why a pendulum stroke (arc) when compared to a vector style stroke (piston).

#1) its more difficult to hit or even find any finish spot using a piston stroke, the forarm and hand of the stroking arm SLIDES across the face of the chest and you stop it manually, there is no Mechanical Dead End with this stroke which functionally eliminates the finish spot leaving you with more to do physically. (I know it happens after tip contact but your still having to do more physical work regardless)

When compared to the Pendulum there is a DEFINATE Finish Spot, it functions as a Mechanical Dead End. You don't stop your stroke, using the pendulum stroke the grip hand runs into a brick wall and has no choice but to stop. This happens b/c the arc that the hand traveles in (which is created at the elbow) causes the grip hand to come square into the face of the chest and the hand can not continue forward.

My stance may be a little higher than yours. I just tried the mechanical stop pendulum stroke with no elbow drop. I kept extending the pendulum until the end of the butt finally hit under my arm pit slowing but not stopping my stroke, then the tip went up and broke two eight foot fluorescent bulbs in the table light before it stopped. The hall owner is hot about the mess and doesn't think that he should have to bill you for his bulbs. I'm somewhat skeptical that it will be acceptable to use the light bulbs as my mechanical stopping point on all future shots and I don't think the hall owner is willing to put diffusers on his lights to accommodate me judging by what he said when I suggested that. For the record, I'm pretty sure his suggestion isn't anatomically possible anyway.


1a) Taking this into consideration it is mechanically more complicated to use a piston style stroke, consistency is also effected and exact mechanical movements b/c more difficult as well.

1b)The Piston style stroke also puts more stress on the mechanical timing of the stroke directly effecting the start/stop of the differing mechanical motions that make up the whole stroke. You have to time the drop of the elbow to coincide with the forward delivery of the hand to keep the stroke LEVEL. The elbow has to drop "X" distance in relation to the distance the grip hand traveles forward.

The farther the grip hand goes the lower the elbow must drop. Instead of having a consistent one motion delivery as is with the pendulum, the piston involves 2 movements that must work in sync to properly hit the shot.


This combination of movements is mathematically exponential in regards to degree of difficulty. If the pendulum has a value of 1 in regards to how involved you have to be to make it work, then we would figure that since there are two movements in the piston stroke that it would just be twice as difficult mechanically. This is not the case, the two separate movements may have individual values of 1 but we need another value for the equation. Lets call it compound movement synchronization now just to be easy we are going to give it a value of 1 also.

Using simple math we can see that the Piston Stroke is AT LEAST 300% more difficult of a mechanical motion to consistently produce accurate results with. Its just that much more involved.

You could say that with the Piston stroke you could hit the CB at any position since the cue does not stroke in an arc, as a result of the compound movement of the upper and lower arm the stick strokes on a level course. Then you still have to perform that compound movement!

With the pendulum stroke all you have to remember is TIP to the CB and grip hand at the hip! When you drop down your automatically set up in the proper mechanical position for your bodies dimensions. You pull the cue stick back and then deliver the forward stroke and THATS IT! The hinge which is the elbow lets the forearm and hand swing from the fixed point directly to where the Tip needs to be delivered, then as if we weren't lucky enough the stroke will be suddenly stopped at the perfect spot AUTOMATICALLY, no need for personal or mental influence....your body does the work for you.

Piston Stroke -mechanically more complex, and more involved conscious effort is needed to attain the same consistency found in the pendulum stroke.

Pendulum Stroke -when set up correctly the only thing required to perform is to pull the hand back and then throw it forward, whereupon the body does the rest for you. From proper tip placement in regards to the grip arm at contact with CB(90ļ), to a completed stroke IT'S ALL DONE FOR YOU, and a proper set up further ensures that the shooter can only have one result....THE CORRECT ONE.


Actually the pendulum stroke is quite complex and an unnatural function of our body. We attempt to hold everything down to our elbow stationary, allow our elbow to move, and then make small compensations in our wrist and grip so the cue stick itself doesn't move in an arc to match the arc of the pendulum stroke. When using the pendulum stroke is the only time we use our body in this manner. Even the very loose grip is an artificial act.

The strokes using the full arm use our body in the same manner we have been using it every day of our lives with each part of our body complimenting the rest of it in the same manner we make hundreds of movements every day.

The full arm strokes are very natural and constantly practiced movements while the pendulum is an unnatural movement that forces our body to perform tasks that we never ask of it at any other time. Both movements are very complex since the stationary elbow is held stationary not by any mechanical lock-up but the muscles in our shoulder, upper arm, torso, all the way down through our legs and toes. (some that help hold the shoulder stationary in it's position are the same that we use to stroke pendulum, major conflict!)

Ultimately we have two essentially equally complex strokes when all factors are considered. One is an extension of the natural movements we have been making all of our lives, one is totally alien and unique to itself. One stroke we have been preparing to perform since our first movements in the womb and mimics the way we move all day and even in our sleep, one stroke introduces something new that our bodies have never been asked to do before and that incorporates activities that we never duplicate in daily life. Simply walking we swing our arms from the shoulder in perfect harmony with the rest of our body to maintain balance. Try walking holding your elbows locked in one place and only swinging your arms from the elbows down. It can be done but it is anything but a natural movement! Basically we practice the mechanics of the full arm stroke every time we move. We practice the pendulum stroke . . . . . well, only when we practice the pendulum stroke!




With a good set up technique the Pendulum Stroke is very easy and very effective. Improper set up can cause the shooter to add components to this stroke which will compromise its effectiveness.

Remember Set it up and let your body do the job its perfectly designed for. Set it up and then pull the grip hand back then deliver the hand forward and your chest will complete the job task for you.

best wishes,
Grey Ghost
  
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03-04-2010, 03:21 PM

Of course I exaggerated to a degree, as I wanted it to be easy to understand the general idea. I didnít mean to sound biased either, as each and every stroke out there has its proper place in the game. If I only used the pendulum then some shots I encounter I would not be able to perform the shot as I decide too.

I use the pendulum stroke on the vast majority of shots, but donít take my post as negative towards the Piston style stroke. I most definitely use the piston stroke, and on a regular basis too. For some shots it is a much more functional type of stroke. My best examples being the break shot and power follow shots. I do prefer the pendulum as my normal stroke but donít view the Piston style stroke as wrong, incorrect or improper by any means. When I said that the piston was % wise more difficult, I misspoke...what I should have said was that % wise the stroke is more involved which doesn't make it necessarily more difficult to perform especially when we know the proper mechanics that make up each style of shot/stroke.

Take for example Scott Lee and the SPF instructors teach you to use the same bridge length for basically every shot, you always hold the cue in the same particular place. To a degree I fall in with this, as most shots I do use the same length bridge. But some shots call for either a longer bridge or a shorter one, its inherent in the game. So that idea has a limit to its functionality. If the CB is on the rail then of course my bridge is going to be shorter than normal, AND my grip hand will change placement as well as to maintain proper mechanics. If I keep my grip hand at the back of the cue then I wont be able to reach the table with my bridge hand, my wingspan stays the same as always I just adjust my body closer or farther away accordingly in relation to where its possible to place my bridge hand.

I know SPF/BCA donít condone the punch style stroke, as itís a bunt style stroke, theres more poke than stroke when using the punch. It is IMOP the best stroke out there for playing bank pool. Its more compact, and very precise. You would not catch me dead playing banks and using a true pendulum or piston stroke like we normally use in rotation style pool such as 9 ball.


Lol your exaggeration in regards to a high stance and its effect on the pendulums range makes a great point. Like all things there are limits to what can be done with certain techniques. Just like you see in the differing aiming systems, all the aiming systems out there have their own particular style or range of shot angle that the particular aiming system does the best with. As you know and Iím sure everyone will agree that the effectiveness of all the techniques we can use will only be beneficial when they are used in that techniques set range.


Youíre very much correct that the higher you stand on the shot the more the pendulum stroke starts to exceed its limits. Stand very high and the finish point on the chest gets replaced with florescent bulbs. Stand high enough and youíll be shooting DOWN on the CB every time with a pendulum stroke.

That said its obvious that the higher up you are on the shot the more effective the Piston Stroke. On the other end of the spectrum, the lower you are on the shot the more effective the pendulum stroke will be.


I understand what you mean. Tho I disagree with the idea of ďattemptingĒ to hold the upper arm stationary under normal stroking speeds. As is the thought that the light grip is un-natural. The grip strength has a direct effect on how the arm works. When you grip too tight, thatís when your going to ďattemptĒ to keep the upper-arm stationary(and probably w/o success) Your looking at the separate components and judging them, you canít judge something standing alone when it functions together with other things as a team. One thing causes this, the other effects that etc

The light grip BELONGS to the pendulum stroke. With a light grip there is no tension on the arm, so there is no need to FORCIBLY keep the elbow stationary. The absence of tension lets the forearm pivot at the hinge (elbow) and swing back/forth at this axis. If you swing too far back then the elbow will rise, if you are too high on the shot then the elbow will dip as the distance the grip hand has exceeded the practical range for the use of the pendulum.

Now hereís the really neat thing, if your using a piston stroke Iím positive that the grip will become firmer. With a very light grip the arm will not work together, the upper and lower arm will b/c detached in their motions. Just as is exhibited in the pendulum stroke. The firmer grip (this is an arbitrary measurment, I donít know how much firmer it should be but grip pressure should be greater) will mechanically cause the upper and lower arm to work in TANDEM. The hand is connected to the forearm, and the forearm to the upperarmÖthe grip pressure is the glue that bonds the extra moving parts together.

That inherent tension is what links the moving parts of the arm and lets the arm know ďhey we have a job to do, now follow alongĒ When the grip is very light when implementing the pendulum then the hand does not send the signal for the upperarm to be included in the task at hand. This is the language of the hand, the hand is what does the talkingÖ.the arm only receives this info and uses it accordingly, the arm does not initiate the movements the grip hand is the initiator and supreme overlord of the stroke.


As an example how the body works and its parts effect movements lets use a baseball bat swing to contrast/compare to.
When the bat is gripped too hard (all too often) it reduces feeling in the hands, and adds tension to the forearm. What happens when the player swings is the upper arm ends up following the hands out and away from the body. This causes the wrists to snap and elbows to turn in two phases. The result is reduced bat speed, loss of control of the swing and can eventually cause tennis elbow. The proper way to swing a bat is to hold it lightly(a proper bat grip is nearly identical to a gold club grip, with the exception of the straight thumbs but you do line up your knuckles that are in the middle of your fingers, you donít like up your punching knuckles), just firm enough so it donít fall out your hands when you swing. The lack of tension will help your rear elbow stay tucked close to your body. As the players hips turn during the swing the close body elbows give you much needed control of the swing. The close body elbow also magnifies the snap of the wrist, as the hips turn the hands move toward the pitcher and then the elbows hinge SPRINGS OPEN and causes the wrists to snap simultaneously. The whole time adding power, bat speed and control to your swing. The path of the hands resembles the letter J not an ellipse.

So when swinging a bat the rear arm (thatís the one that does the work) only has the forearm and hand initiating the motion, the upper arm doesnít come into play on a proper swing the hips turn and the elbows open causing the wrists to snap and turn over and the rear elbow stays tucked close to the body throughout the entire swing.

No stroke is a natural movement, a natural movement is walking. Every stroke that you use you must learn how to do it and commit it to muscle memory where upon it becomes 2nd nature, but still not natural. The strokes are un-natural motions separate, but when the components are put together they work in a mechanically natural way. The equation is abnormal, the product true to the bodys inner workings. What is natural is how the different components of the various strokes work together to produce the desired physical outcome. The components of each stroke are engineered to work with your bodys mechanics(if you stay within range)Ö.IMOP that shows itís a natural OUTCOME. If it didnít fit mechanically we would not be able to play the game very well. That would be more along the lines of holding a bat cross handed, that would be un-natural, as it would oppose and greatly be in conflict with the turnover of the wrists and development of the swing.


When we walk the arms are loose and act the way they do b/c of conservation of momentum. The arms are basically straight and the whole arm swings together in one smooth motion. People generally donít bend the elbow and swing the forearm up at the elbow joint when walking, as that causes a loss of perpetual momentul and looses the energy to vertical lift. Proper running from is the exact same motion, only the shoulder does work causing the upper arm to move back and forth. The elbow is bent close to 90ļ but the angle of the elbow does not open and close. The forearm stays locked and as the shoulder moves the upper arm back and forth the forearm does NOTHING except hold its position, its only job is to promote PERPETUAL MOTION and decrease vertical motion.

Now that Iím on running Iím going to tell you all something that Iíve always believed everyone should know. YOU RUN WRONG! Thereís good news tho, its not your fault by any means. Itís the shoes that you wear that are the problem. Nike Shocks, Mizuno waves etcÖall that thick padding in the heel, Its good tho right? WRONG! You donít run heel to toe, that makes your knee lock out on impact which is why so many weekend fitness buffs all got knees that are beat to hell.

That fat soft padding on the heel is a gimmick and thatís all. When you run and jog the initial impact with the ground shoud occur at the midfoot, Its called a Mid-Foot strike. When you strike with the Mid-Foot the knee will have a slight bend to it. Which will let the leg perform like the shock absorber it is. When you strike heel first, even with all those air packs and shocks your jarring your knees, your also expending more energy to get less work. If you donít believe it then try running heel to toe barefooted on the road for a 100yds and see how you like it. Then do it again barefoot with a midfoot strikeÖ.AHHHH that feels much better J Now you too can run like Gump, and save the only knees ya got.


Ok my brain is mush lol, I think i might have a stroke
Grey Ghost


Some people create with words or with music or with a brush and paints. I like to make something beautiful when I play. I like to make people stop and say, 'I've never seen anyone shoot like that before.' It's more than just a game, it's a style. It's doing something better than anyone else. It's being creative.
-Grey Ghost-

Dont ever be afraid to go after what you want and to put in the work it takes to get there, just be willing to accept the consequences.
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a fantastic post!
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a fantastic post! - 03-04-2010, 06:06 PM

GG,

I'll have to rag you more often. This is nothing short of a fantastic post I am replying to. A little lead in and clean up and it would make a great article. I seriously do believe that the full arm strokes are more in keeping than the pendulum with how we usually move offsetting any idea that one stroke is more complicated than the other. In truth though I find multiple strokes good to have in my bag of tricks too and use a fairly pure pendulum when I get down low but I can only get low for a few shots at a time at most and then I have to revert to a higher stance. The pendulum seems far less stable with a higher stance.

The slip stroke, letting the hand slide backwards a bit on the final backstroke, is great for warm up if nothing else. It gets the grip very light and the stroke fluid, regardless of the foundation you use it on. It would seem to be a less accurate stroke than others but in reality I find it extremely accurate, perhaps the most accurate stroke I have tried. Speed control with the slip stroke needs a lot more practice for me and it works best with my heavier wrapped cue which I basically don't like as well as my superlight wrapless cue.

I've got to close with another compliment. The message I am replying to is truly a well thought out and well crafted post.

Hu

Quote:
Originally Posted by greyghost View Post
Of course I exaggerated to a degree, as I wanted it to be easy to understand the general idea. I didnít mean to sound biased either, as each and every stroke out there has its proper place in the game. If I only used the pendulum then some shots I encounter I would not be able to perform the shot as I decide too.

I use the pendulum stroke on the vast majority of shots, but donít take my post as negative towards the Piston style stroke. I most definitely use the piston stroke, and on a regular basis too. For some shots it is a much more functional type of stroke. My best examples being the break shot and power follow shots. I do prefer the pendulum as my normal stroke but donít view the Piston style stroke as wrong, incorrect or improper by any means. When I said that the piston was % wise more difficult, I misspoke...what I should have said was that % wise the stroke is more involved which doesn't make it necessarily more difficult to perform especially when we know the proper mechanics that make up each style of shot/stroke.

Take for example Scott Lee and the SPF instructors teach you to use the same bridge length for basically every shot, you always hold the cue in the same particular place. To a degree I fall in with this, as most shots I do use the same length bridge. But some shots call for either a longer bridge or a shorter one, its inherent in the game. So that idea has a limit to its functionality. If the CB is on the rail then of course my bridge is going to be shorter than normal, AND my grip hand will change placement as well as to maintain proper mechanics. If I keep my grip hand at the back of the cue then I wont be able to reach the table with my bridge hand, my wingspan stays the same as always I just adjust my body closer or farther away accordingly in relation to where its possible to place my bridge hand.

I know SPF/BCA donít condone the punch style stroke, as itís a bunt style stroke, theres more poke than stroke when using the punch. It is IMOP the best stroke out there for playing bank pool. Its more compact, and very precise. You would not catch me dead playing banks and using a true pendulum or piston stroke like we normally use in rotation style pool such as 9 ball.


Lol your exaggeration in regards to a high stance and its effect on the pendulums range makes a great point. Like all things there are limits to what can be done with certain techniques. Just like you see in the differing aiming systems, all the aiming systems out there have their own particular style or range of shot angle that the particular aiming system does the best with. As you know and Iím sure everyone will agree that the effectiveness of all the techniques we can use will only be beneficial when they are used in that techniques set range.


Youíre very much correct that the higher you stand on the shot the more the pendulum stroke starts to exceed its limits. Stand very high and the finish point on the chest gets replaced with florescent bulbs. Stand high enough and youíll be shooting DOWN on the CB every time with a pendulum stroke.

That said its obvious that the higher up you are on the shot the more effective the Piston Stroke. On the other end of the spectrum, the lower you are on the shot the more effective the pendulum stroke will be.


I understand what you mean. Tho I disagree with the idea of ďattemptingĒ to hold the upper arm stationary under normal stroking speeds. As is the thought that the light grip is un-natural. The grip strength has a direct effect on how the arm works. When you grip too tight, thatís when your going to ďattemptĒ to keep the upper-arm stationary(and probably w/o success) Your looking at the separate components and judging them, you canít judge something standing alone when it functions together with other things as a team. One thing causes this, the other effects that etc

The light grip BELONGS to the pendulum stroke. With a light grip there is no tension on the arm, so there is no need to FORCIBLY keep the elbow stationary. The absence of tension lets the forearm pivot at the hinge (elbow) and swing back/forth at this axis. If you swing too far back then the elbow will rise, if you are too high on the shot then the elbow will dip as the distance the grip hand has exceeded the practical range for the use of the pendulum.

Now hereís the really neat thing, if your using a piston stroke Iím positive that the grip will become firmer. With a very light grip the arm will not work together, the upper and lower arm will b/c detached in their motions. Just as is exhibited in the pendulum stroke. The firmer grip (this is an arbitrary measurment, I donít know how much firmer it should be but grip pressure should be greater) will mechanically cause the upper and lower arm to work in TANDEM. The hand is connected to the forearm, and the forearm to the upperarmÖthe grip pressure is the glue that bonds the extra moving parts together.

That inherent tension is what links the moving parts of the arm and lets the arm know ďhey we have a job to do, now follow alongĒ When the grip is very light when implementing the pendulum then the hand does not send the signal for the upperarm to be included in the task at hand. This is the language of the hand, the hand is what does the talkingÖ.the arm only receives this info and uses it accordingly, the arm does not initiate the movements the grip hand is the initiator and supreme overlord of the stroke.


As an example how the body works and its parts effect movements lets use a baseball bat swing to contrast/compare to.
When the bat is gripped too hard (all too often) it reduces feeling in the hands, and adds tension to the forearm. What happens when the player swings is the upper arm ends up following the hands out and away from the body. This causes the wrists to snap and elbows to turn in two phases. The result is reduced bat speed, loss of control of the swing and can eventually cause tennis elbow. The proper way to swing a bat is to hold it lightly(a proper bat grip is nearly identical to a gold club grip, with the exception of the straight thumbs but you do line up your knuckles that are in the middle of your fingers, you donít like up your punching knuckles), just firm enough so it donít fall out your hands when you swing. The lack of tension will help your rear elbow stay tucked close to your body. As the players hips turn during the swing the close body elbows give you much needed control of the swing. The close body elbow also magnifies the snap of the wrist, as the hips turn the hands move toward the pitcher and then the elbows hinge SPRINGS OPEN and causes the wrists to snap simultaneously. The whole time adding power, bat speed and control to your swing. The path of the hands resembles the letter J not an ellipse.

So when swinging a bat the rear arm (thatís the one that does the work) only has the forearm and hand initiating the motion, the upper arm doesnít come into play on a proper swing the hips turn and the elbows open causing the wrists to snap and turn over and the rear elbow stays tucked close to the body throughout the entire swing.

No stroke is a natural movement, a natural movement is walking. Every stroke that you use you must learn how to do it and commit it to muscle memory where upon it becomes 2nd nature, but still not natural. The strokes are un-natural motions separate, but when the components are put together they work in a mechanically natural way. The equation is abnormal, the product true to the bodys inner workings. What is natural is how the different components of the various strokes work together to produce the desired physical outcome. The components of each stroke are engineered to work with your bodys mechanics(if you stay within range)Ö.IMOP that shows itís a natural OUTCOME. If it didnít fit mechanically we would not be able to play the game very well. That would be more along the lines of holding a bat cross handed, that would be un-natural, as it would oppose and greatly be in conflict with the turnover of the wrists and development of the swing.


When we walk the arms are loose and act the way they do b/c of conservation of momentum. The arms are basically straight and the whole arm swings together in one smooth motion. People generally donít bend the elbow and swing the forearm up at the elbow joint when walking, as that causes a loss of perpetual momentul and looses the energy to vertical lift. Proper running from is the exact same motion, only the shoulder does work causing the upper arm to move back and forth. The elbow is bent close to 90ļ but the angle of the elbow does not open and close. The forearm stays locked and as the shoulder moves the upper arm back and forth the forearm does NOTHING except hold its position, its only job is to promote PERPETUAL MOTION and decrease vertical motion.

Now that Iím on running Iím going to tell you all something that Iíve always believed everyone should know. YOU RUN WRONG! Thereís good news tho, its not your fault by any means. Itís the shoes that you wear that are the problem. Nike Shocks, Mizuno waves etcÖall that thick padding in the heel, Its good tho right? WRONG! You donít run heel to toe, that makes your knee lock out on impact which is why so many weekend fitness buffs all got knees that are beat to hell.

That fat soft padding on the heel is a gimmick and thatís all. When you run and jog the initial impact with the ground shoud occur at the midfoot, Its called a Mid-Foot strike. When you strike with the Mid-Foot the knee will have a slight bend to it. Which will let the leg perform like the shock absorber it is. When you strike heel first, even with all those air packs and shocks your jarring your knees, your also expending more energy to get less work. If you donít believe it then try running heel to toe barefooted on the road for a 100yds and see how you like it. Then do it again barefoot with a midfoot strikeÖ.AHHHH that feels much better J Now you too can run like Gump, and save the only knees ya got.


Ok my brain is mush lol, I think i might have a stroke
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one handing the shot - 03-05-2010, 02:58 PM

Just for grins I shot a couple of racks of balls end to end of a fairly tight nine foot Diamond one handed earlier today. Not jacked up, the stick just laying loose on the rail without putting any pressure on the shaft. Ball after ball fell into the pocket, I don't remember missing any until I was interrupted. After being interrupted I hit the left point consistently for a few shots before getting back into the pocket, seemingly more of an eyeball than an elbow problem. I have to conclude that my stroke is straight enough at least when I am at the cue ball.

The less I work at trying to play pool the better I shoot. There seems to be a hint in there somewhere. It seems what I really need to do is just relax and hit balls, a lot of balls.

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03-05-2010, 03:51 PM

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Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
Just for grins I shot a couple of racks of balls end to end of a fairly tight nine foot Diamond one handed earlier today. Not jacked up, the stick just laying loose on the rail without putting any pressure on the shaft. Ball after ball fell into the pocket, I don't remember missing any until I was interrupted. After being interrupted I hit the left point consistently for a few shots before getting back into the pocket, seemingly more of an eyeball than an elbow problem. I have to conclude that my stroke is straight enough at least when I am at the cue ball.

The less I work at trying to play pool the better I shoot. There seems to be a hint in there somewhere. It seems what I really need to do is just relax and hit balls, a lot of balls.

Hu
Thanks very much for the compliment brother, as I was posting I was thinking "god I hope they don't think I'm crazy lol" I hear you on the possible eyeball issue, i went play for a bit last night and was very tired the room looked very hazy and I was really having some issues with being able to see anything precisely. I just kept playing and didn't let missing bother me, it definately wasn't in my stroke just couldn't see a dam thing to save my life....i felt like i had just picked up a cue for the first time and didn't know where to aim the thing at lol.

Where do you stay around New Orleans I drive through there twice a week to and from work in Venice. Would enjoy getting together sometime.

thanks again,
Keebie


Some people create with words or with music or with a brush and paints. I like to make something beautiful when I play. I like to make people stop and say, 'I've never seen anyone shoot like that before.' It's more than just a game, it's a style. It's doing something better than anyone else. It's being creative.
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03-05-2010, 05:19 PM

Keeb...You use your SOP (standard operating process) bridge length and accompanying grip position for SOP shots...not all shots. However, as you mentioned, SOP shots are the majority of shots we play (perhaps as much as 90%). The CB frozen on the rail is an XOP (xtra-care operating process), and requires something different. Stroking at less than a 1 speed is a "finesse" stroke, and utilizes a finesse bridge length. It is also another XOP, and not a 'bunt' or 'dink'. While others may disagree, the Punch/poke is not a stroke, imo. It is what it is...a poke. It may work for some players some of the time, but it is functionally difficult to apply speed control accurately (for many players) when you're using tensed bicep muscle and/or too much grip pressure, to shoot the CB.

Scott Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greyghost View Post

Take for example Scott Lee and the SPF instructors teach you to use the same bridge length for basically every shot, you always hold the cue in the same particular place. To a degree I fall in with this, as most shots I do use the same length bridge. But some shots call for either a longer bridge or a shorter one, its inherent in the game. So that idea has a limit to its functionality. If the CB is on the rail then of course my bridge is going to be shorter than normal, AND my grip hand will change placement as well as to maintain proper mechanics. If I keep my grip hand at the back of the cue then I wont be able to reach the table with my bridge hand, my wingspan stays the same as always I just adjust my body closer or farther away accordingly in relation to where its possible to place my bridge hand.

I know SPF/BCA don’t condone the punch style stroke, as it’s a bunt style stroke, theres more poke than stroke when using the punch. It is IMOP the best stroke out there for playing bank pool. Its more compact, and very precise. You would not catch me dead playing banks and using a true pendulum or piston stroke like we normally use in rotation style pool such as 9 ball.


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03-05-2010, 07:28 PM

.............

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03-06-2010, 06:08 AM

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Originally Posted by Scott Lee View Post
Keeb...You use your SOP (standard operating process) bridge length and accompanying grip position for SOP shots...not all shots. However, as you mentioned, SOP shots are the majority of shots we play (perhaps as much as 90%). The CB frozen on the rail is an XOP (xtra-care operating process), and requires something different. Stroking at less than a 1 speed is a "finesse" stroke, and utilizes a finesse bridge length. It is also another XOP, and not a 'bunt' or 'dink'. While others may disagree, the Punch/poke is not a stroke, imo. It is what it is...a poke. It may work for some players some of the time, but it is functionally difficult to apply speed control accurately (for many players) when you're using tensed bicep muscle and/or too much grip pressure, to shoot the CB.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Thanks for the reply Scott. You deserve the title of Mr. Acronym lets give a little nod to the Punch, call it the PPwS...the Punch Poke wannabe Stroke lol. It has to be used on very particular shots where complete follow through is not possible but it very much wants to be a complete stroke like its big brothers, the pendulum and the piston . Pooor Punch Poke wanna be Stroke is like the red headed step child of the pool world

hope your great brother,
Keeb-


Some people create with words or with music or with a brush and paints. I like to make something beautiful when I play. I like to make people stop and say, 'I've never seen anyone shoot like that before.' It's more than just a game, it's a style. It's doing something better than anyone else. It's being creative.
-Grey Ghost-

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03-06-2010, 06:11 AM

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AAAh, that's no excuse! I haven't been able to even read the numbers on the balls for over ten years now, and I can still play a little!

Seriously, I have found that usually when someone has that problem, it's not so much that they can't see clearly, as that their head (mind) isn't where it needs to be.
I'll give you that Neil i was so darn bored I was sitting there yawing my butt off in b/t turns at the table lol. I wanted to play some one hole for $$$ but they wouldn't break up the ring game, and there's only one nice table to play on. So yea my head def was somewhere else.


Some people create with words or with music or with a brush and paints. I like to make something beautiful when I play. I like to make people stop and say, 'I've never seen anyone shoot like that before.' It's more than just a game, it's a style. It's doing something better than anyone else. It's being creative.
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03-06-2010, 06:27 AM

Keeb, If you haven't already seen it, the next time you see one of us, ask about the short finish. SPF stroke that works very well when the cue ball and object ball are in close proximity to each other.

Steve


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03-06-2010, 09:33 AM

Amen Steve...Keeb would freak out if we showed him what's possible WITHOUT a poke/punch! Two weeks ago, at the Ft. Myers FL pool school, Randy opened everybody's eyes by drawing the CB 9' when the CB & OB were less than 2 inches apart! A beautiful stroke, and no foul!

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Keeb, If you haven't already seen it, the next time you see one of us, ask about the short finish. SPF stroke that works very well when the cue ball and object ball are in close proximity to each other.

Steve


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03-06-2010, 01:54 PM

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Amen Steve...Keeb would freak out if we showed him what's possible WITHOUT a poke/punch! Two weeks ago, at the Ft. Myers FL pool school, Randy opened everybody's eyes by drawing the CB 9' when the CB & OB were less than 2 inches apart! A beautiful stroke, and no foul!
Was it one of the "tricks" below, or something else?
NV B.49 - Using your knuckles to prevent a double hit and stop the cue ball, with Bob Jewett
NV B.50 - Using your knuckles to prevent a double hit and get follow, with Bob Jewett
NV B.51 - Using your natural forward stroke limit to prevent a double hit and get draw, with Bob Jewett
NV B.52 - Using a fouette shot to prevent a double hit, with Bob Jewett
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