Felt Suggestion

Hierovision said:

I posted this in the mechanic's section but got no response, so I'm posting here.

I'm trying to get the community center here on base to redo the tables and need a suggestion for the cloth. I'm just a pool player so I don't know the differences in the higher end cloth. All I hear is that 860 is the standard, it's the best, etc. On the other hand, I've recently heard that some other cloth has the same or better quality standards (i.e. consistent weight across the piece) for less cost.

Since most tournaments and pool halls I know of use 860 or 860HR, is there a cloth out there that is a better value, has a speed equal to 860, and lasts longer?

Also, the lower the price the better so I can help convince the management to bite.

Thanks in advance for your input.

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You can't go wrong with any of the following:

Simonis 860 0r 860HR
Championship Tour Edition 3030
Gorina Granito Basalt

All of them are worsted wool with nylon (for added strength).

Championship 3030 and Gorina Granito Basalt are a smidge faster than Simonis 860 but no so much faster that it really makes much of a difference.

BTW, worsted wool is the same kind of woolen cloth that is also used to make fine quality garments such as men's suits.

Worsted wool is first combed in a carding process. The purpose of the combing is to remove any short and brittle fibers from the wool. This leaves only the longer strands of the fiber to undergo the spinning process, producing a smooth yarn that possesses a higher durability.

Felt is a type of cloth that is produced by matting, condensing and pressing wool fibers.

Click on the first link below to see what felt looks like and on the other to see what worsted wool is like:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Filc2008_r._002.jpg

http://www.iwansimonis.com/?page=poolcolor&language=en

Hope this helps! :smile:

Mali is a decent option if you're on a budget. Simonis is really the good stuff, and they charge for it. I've played on granito and liked it fine, but not as nice as simonis. Never personally touched mali or velocity.

Maybe this page will help:
http://www.poolfelt.com/pool_table_felt_buyers_guide.html

Hierovision said:

Is that it? Just to keep readers of this thread up-to-date, in the thread in the mechanic's section "Dartman" suggested Velocity Pro or Aramith Tournament cloth as a less expensive comparable speed cloth.

He also suggested that Championship is not comparable in speed or quality to Simonis 860.

Taking in all the suggestions, thanks folks.

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Just to get your facts straight - I didn't "suggest" anything - rather, I made the statement that Champ cloth is not comparable in speed or quality with 860. Being in the cloth biz for over 10 years maybe I know just a wee bit more about cloth then those that are not in the biz.

Championship offers 1 worsted cloth (3030) and several woolens (napped).
3030 is faster than 860 and all the woolens are slower. 3030 is closer to 760 on speed and that would be the correct comparison.

The Simonis mill in Belgium makes "only" billiard cloth and has much tighter quality control standards so the metrics from one bolt to the next stay consistent. Other cloth brands made in Mexico, India and the Far East, while good quality, are not made to the same standards as Simonis.

Velocity and Aramith will play about the same speed or a hair faster than 860 but at a considerably lower price - which was your point in the first place.

IMO you should stick with Bob since he can do the work and get whatever cloth the powers that be decide on as well. A little strange to me that you usaf guys that always seemed to have the best of everything are pinching pennies now.

You might want to consider Milliken Super Pro as an option. It is a tournament grade worsted cloth and, while a little more expensive than brands such as Velocity Pro and Championship, it is cheaper than Simonis. Lots of pool room owners are starting put this cloth on without telling their customers, because so many folks are blinded by the Simonis brand name they think that no other cloth can compare in terms of quality, however the room owners see that it is saving them a good deal of money in the long run as their customer never know the difference if they aren't told.

The cloth plays great, has no noticeable break-in period, maintains a consistent speed longer than competing brands, and is SpillGuard protected to keep the cloth looking better longer. It is milled in the UK at the woolen specialty division of Milliken, where they also make the fabric for tennis balls used in Wimbledon and most all other professional tennis events.

We have also done some designer cuts for other military installations on the Milliken Artscape cloth. This cloth has the same specifications as the Super Pro, and can have just about any image dyed directly into the fabric without affecting the playability of the cloth. I have attached two custom cuts of cloth done for other military units.

disclaimer - I work for the exclusive distributor of this cloth for the North American market. We sell a variety of cloth including Simonis, Arcade, Mali, and some other imported cloths sold under house brand names.

carter1984 said:

disclaimer ...

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Disclaimer? Just say you work for Sterling Gaming. This isn't WOF.

Anyway - are you guys able to print designs with a solid color background or
do you have dropped dye problems like championship had with that?

it cracks me up when people call it FELT !

thats not even close. it is cloth, sir. no offense but it does show that you may not be an expert in the pool world. but surely a nice person !

we all like the forum for free, true?

then if you need anything for pool check out azbmarketplace to show your support. they do have the best prices you can find and earn azbucks when you shop. that gives you a future discount !

http://www.azbmarketplace.com/

here's an interesting article about how the napped cloth is made for snooker. apparently milliken has been the supplier of cloth to World Snooker since the 80's, a very nice testimonial for the company. would be interested in any customer reviews of their pool cloth.

Hierovision said:

I posted this in the mechanic's section but got no response, so I'm posting here.

I'm trying to get the community center here on base to redo the tables and need a suggestion for the cloth. I'm just a pool player so I don't know the differences in the higher end cloth. All I hear is that 860 is the standard, it's the best, etc. On the other hand, I've recently heard that some other cloth has the same or better quality standards (i.e. consistent weight across the piece) for less cost.

Since most tournaments and pool halls I know of use 860 or 860HR, is there a cloth out there that is a better value, has a speed equal to 860, and lasts longer?

Also, the lower the price the better so I can help convince the management to bite.

Thanks in advance for your input.

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The answer to your question is Milliken Super Pro. The mill making this cloth has been in the business as long as Simonis. This cloth fulfills all your requirements above and more.

Dartman said:

Disclaimer? Just say you work for Sterling Gaming. This isn't WOF.

Anyway - are you guys able to print designs with a solid color background or
do you have dropped dye problems like championship had with that?

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Don't know what problems Championship had but we print designs with a pattern to the background so that the custom printed cloth maintains a "new" appearance much longer than solid colors do.

In the research leading up to doing the printed cloth it was determined that solid printed cloth tends to "get old looking" very quickly even though there is no degradation in the actual longevity of the cloth.

To date we have done hundreds of custom prints and to my knowledge we have had zero complaints.

At the Super Billiards Expo anyone is free to come to our booth and try their best to beat up our Super Pro printed Artscape cloth.

We can be found right here:




As for Matt's disclaimer, didn't you chide him in another thread for not disclosing that he sells Milliken cloth when he recommended it?

One more thing,

Milliken Cloth is made in the same facility that it has been for more than 100 years. This cloth is comparable to Simonis by EVERY standard that one can think of.

Of course Simonis is the brand name most think of when they think of premium cloth and that's because they have a 95 year head start in the US market.

I challenge anyone to dare to compare. At the SBE you can play on Super Pro at our booth and at the Straight pool challenge.

And let's be clear about one more thing. When you see a tournament that uses Simonis, SuperPro or Championship then it's not because that's the choice of the promoters but mainly because the brand being used came up with the highest bid on sponsorship. Which is fine because it's all part of advertising and marketing. People should be smart enough these days to know that the one who advertises the most isn't always the best or the only choice.

And why I am writing so much on this?

We sell Super Pro and it's a crowded market with a lot of misinformation.

If a person tries our cloth they usually like it a lot but getting through all the noise about other brands is tough in today's market.

Disclaimer - I also sell Milliken Super Pro AND Simonis if you want it.

And I also judge cloth by how it looks when it comes off the table, to be replaced. A true test of cloth is in amount of time it's been on the table and just how much play has been put on that cloth. But it seems most like to promote cloth when it's new, and plays great, has good speed...etc...

Glen, for MY money, I'll let it ride on the Simonis 860HR

Glen

JB Cases said:

Don't know what problems Championship had but we print designs with a pattern to the background so that the custom printed cloth maintains a "new" appearance much longer than solid colors do.

In the research leading up to doing the printed cloth it was determined that solid printed cloth tends to "get old looking" very quickly even though there is no degradation in the actual longevity of the cloth.

To date we have done hundreds of custom prints and to my knowledge we have had zero complaints.

As for Matt's disclaimer, didn't you chide him in another thread for not disclosing that he sells Milliken cloth when he recommended it?
.

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I chided him for not disclosing that he works for Sterling. I doubt he's ashamed of that fact so why not just say so and possibly gain a little credibility along the way.

FTR we redid the Jim Beam cloth for the Colorado folks because they weren't happy with the SP print with the funky background. If you doubt that I'd be happy to post the proof that Pete Green did in June 09. I can also post a pic of the cloth we did on solid black cloth. Now I'm not knocking Milliken cloth - just the printing.

You do digital prints just like Championship did. They are no longer in the printing business because of problems with print quality resulting in losses on cloth (print, trash, print again). The major problem was printing solid backgrounds and dropping dye - in other words leaving unprinted areas or incomplete color tracks. The workaround was to build color bleeds or images into the background to eliminate the print problem but it still exists.

Saying that solid backgrounds makes cloth look old faster is rubbish. Building bleeds and images into the background is done to help hide potential flaws. Nothing personal JB but maybe you should stick to cases and leave the custom printing to people that deal with it every day.

Just for your own information I'd be happy to bring you up to speed on Champ cloth and what's going on with printing. If you're interested drop me a PM.
:wink:

granito owns every other cloth out there.

Danktrees said:

granito owns every other cloth out there.

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In your opinion.

Hierovision said:

I said non-PC. I'm completely and 100% aware that it's not actually felt. I know, because I touch it on a regular basis, and it feels nothing like felt.
... .

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Don't sweat it - the 99.5% of the pool playing universe that are not AZB members call it felt.
This is because people equate the nap look with the look of felt.

Dartman said:

I chided him for not disclosing that he works for Sterling. I doubt he's ashamed of that fact so why not just say so and possibly gain a little credibility along the way.

FTR we redid the Jim Beam cloth for the Colorado folks because they weren't happy with the SP print with the funky background. If you doubt that I'd be happy to post the proof that Pete Green did in June 09. I can also post a pic of the cloth we did on solid black cloth. Now I'm not knocking Milliken cloth - just the printing.

You do digital prints just like Championship did. They are no longer in the printing business because of problems with print quality resulting in losses on cloth (print, trash, print again). The major problem was printing solid backgrounds and dropping dye - in other words leaving unprinted areas or incomplete color tracks. The workaround was to build color bleeds or images into the background to eliminate the print problem but it still exists.

Saying that solid backgrounds makes cloth look old faster is rubbish. Building bleeds and images into the background is done to help hide potential flaws. Nothing personal JB but maybe you should stick to cases and leave the custom printing to people that deal with it every day.

Just for your own information I'd be happy to bring you up to speed on Champ cloth and what's going on with printing. If you're interested drop me a PM.
:wink:

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Fair enough. I will defer to your expertise on this. We still do hundreds of prints per year and like I said to my knowledge most of those customers are very happy with the final result.

If, as you say the issue is that solid backgrounds are hard to achieve through digital printing then it's all good for you when your customer wants a solid background. However if they want what we provide, and I suggest that perhaps Milliken has it down better than Championship does or did because we haven't heard a peep from Milliken regarding any issues with waste and wanting to get out of the printed cloth business, then we are a good choice.

I will give it up to you on the cloth though as I think you are one of if not the best cloth supplier in the country. We will always bump heads I guess because you aren't about to start selling Milliken and we are committed to them.

Best,

John (will stick to cases from now on)

JB Cases said:

Fair enough. I will defer to your expertise on this. We still do hundreds of prints per year and like I said to my knowledge most of those customers are very happy with the final result.

If, as you say the issue is that solid backgrounds are hard to achieve through digital printing then it's all good for you when your customer wants a solid background. However if they want what we provide, and I suggest that perhaps Milliken has it down better than Championship does or did because we haven't heard a peep from Milliken regarding any issues with waste and wanting to get out of the printed cloth business, then we are a good choice.

I will give it up to you on the cloth though as I think you are one of if not the best cloth supplier in the country. We will always bump heads I guess because you aren't about to start selling Milliken and we are committed to them.

Best,

John (will stick to cases from now on)

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FWIW - IMO Milliken does a fine job with prints because they embraced the background effect which eliminates/hides printing flaws. This is what Champ attempted to do and it worked fairly well but they had ongoing problems with their printer and the raw cloth. No doubt the artscape customers are satisfied with the quality of the finished product. Prints on worsted rather then napped are far superior. The hard sell is the customer wanting a solid color cloth with printing - something I doubt Milliken will do and Champ had so-so results.

I'm actually glad this came up. We've been turning down requests for some far out prints (like below) which now that I think about it is something we could probably farm out your way being that we don't have a reliable digital printing partner (our printer uses DDS). If you can PM Matts' direct number I'll add him to my resource list.

Rick (I'd buy a JB case but my 15 yr old 2X2 C&C case works fine :grin