Aiming Systems for Carom Players

Hi, I have personally tried Pivoting systems CTE,RONV at snooker table. It works well. You need to have better stroke to avoid putting english on the cueball.



Pivoting Systems like CTE, RONV are an exact system and great for snooker IMO specially when you are already air pivoting.

dgem said:

Hi, I have personally tried Pivoting systems CTE,RONV at snooker table. It works well. You need to have better stroke to avoid putting english on the cueball.



Pivoting Systems like CTE, RONV are an exact system and great for snooker IMO specially when you are already air pivoting.

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lol you gotta look at the responses i got from the snooker forum dude

mbvl said:

There is a new thread (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=188585) on the snooker forum asking the snooker players their opinions about CTE.

I'm curious what carom players aim at. I'm not talking about diamond systems, but what do you do when playing off the first object ball.

I'll put in my two cents worth at some point.

Mark

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Mark I use the same system I use for Pockets Billiards, I line up the shot no different. However, for thin shots I use a reference system no matter if the shot is long or short. Generally, I use a variation of a full, half, quarter, or edge to edge hit, all I know is that it works well for me.

JIMO

As far as I know, aiming for carom games and especially 3C is ENTIRELY different than games such as snooker, pool etc.

I do not know the corresponding word in English, but basically it can be described as you "drive" the ball, rather than "hit" the ball.
I am going to quote Semih Saygıner's video lessons again, and I know it is not in English, but watchers can grasp the idea without any need for words, I think. The reason for "driving aim and shoot" is to reduce deflection and that there is greater angle capacity for any given shot.
As Semih says in the vid: "if a player does not learn how to "hit by driving", he/she would never become a good 3C player".

http://www.bilardosport.com/site/bilardo-egitim/76-bilardoda-surme-vurus-nasil-yapilir.html

ipitythefool said:

As far as I know, aiming for carom games and especially 3C is ENTIRELY different than games such as snooker, pool etc.

I do not know the corresponding word in English, but basically it can be described as you "drive" the ball, rather than "hit" the ball.
I am going to quote Semih Saygıner's video lessons again, and I know it is not in English, but watchers can grasp the idea without any need for words, I think. The reason for "driving aim and shoot" is to reduce deflection and that there is greater angle capacity for any given shot.
As Semih says in the vid: "if a player does not learn how to "hit by driving", he/she would never become a good 3C player".

http://www.bilardosport.com/site/bilardo-egitim/76-bilardoda-surme-vurus-nasil-yapilir.html

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WOW. i wonder what a good translation of that would be.
Can you explain "driving" the ball?

teedotaj said:

WOW. i wonder what a good translation of that would be.
Can you explain "driving" the ball?

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See, so many problems with English!

ipitythefool said:

As far as I know, aiming for carom games and especially 3C is ENTIRELY different than games such as snooker, pool etc.

I do not know the corresponding word in English, but basically it can be described as you "drive" the ball, rather than "hit" the ball.
I am going to quote Semih Saygıner's video lessons again, and I know it is not in English, but watchers can grasp the idea without any need for words, I think. The reason for "driving aim and shoot" is to reduce deflection and that there is greater angle capacity for any given shot.
As Semih says in the vid: "if a player does not learn how to "hit by driving", he/she would never become a good 3C player".

http://www.bilardosport.com/site/bilardo-egitim/76-bilardoda-surme-vurus-nasil-yapilir.html

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I watched it and don't speak Turkish. If he was demonstrating the difference between between bad strokes and good ones, it escaped me. They all looked good to me.

mbvl said:

I agree completely which is why I asked the original question.

I am totally in the dark as to what Semih is trying to demonstrate. Could it be that he is saying that in carom games one needs to "roll" the cue ball rather than punching it?

Mark

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YUP! I should have used the word "roll" rather than drive. Lost in the translation LOL. Actually, the word "drive" that I picked was the literal translation, which did not work pretty well in English

To answer other posters, he was NOT trying to demonstrate between good and bad stroke. When watched carefully, there is a "follow through" with the cue/shaft, as soon after he hits the ball.

Now I decided to make a full translation of the video here, as much as I can. (And if I could be of help to anyone by translating, I am glad, since it appears to be a "must learn" issue, per Sayginer) I re-watched the video, and he says: "If you can't do "rolling the ball", you can't play 3C!" That is quite a statement, from one of the best ever players. I think it is worth trying to understand it (for the least, for myself) I also notice a lot of other pro players do the same "roll the ball -follow thru w/ cue".

Here is the translation below (I will basically call his method to be "roll technique" throughout the translation) :

"The players who reached a certain (higher) level certainly develop few habitual shooting techniques that work for them. Especially, the most important technique in billiards is, what we call "roll technique" the one that is done by rolling the cue and extending the shot. And actually this is a very difficult technique to develop. When people think of hitting a cue ball, this is the shot that usually comes to minds. (And he hits the ball in the vid the first time) But, 3 cushion's, or billiard's one of the most important shooting technique is the one that is done by rolling the cue after hitting the cue-ball. I mean, I am making sure the cue-ball is not putting out any effort to roll, it rolls smoothly. Now take a look, I will do it towards the camera. I am "rolling" the ball.(and he rolls/hits the ball slowly) Now I can do this a little faster (he hits again) I can do it faster (he hits) or I can roll it very slowly (he hits) This is what we call "extended hitting". If you don't do this, you can't play 3C. I am telling you this very clearly and simply. (At this point it gets hard to translate, sorry) What does roll technique do or how does it help? Basically, if you hit the cue ball in center and lets say that you want to go to second diamond (in the vid) if you don't use the rolling technique, you have only one point that you can hit on the second ball. But, if you use the roll technique, you can tolerate that and it becomes much simpler. And you can hit the second ball in varying thicknesses, and you can still go to second diamond (as he explains in the vid) Now we can't see with bare eyes, but the cue ball takes a curve upon hitting (he is explaining deflection) Perhaps you can see better catch the deflection in the slow motion (and slow mo) and as you see I arrived at the second diamond with ease, even though I hit the second ball quite thick (again, i may be lost in translation with reference to "thickness") Now, to explain this better to you, lets do an experiment. (He demonstrates how he can arrive at the diamond he wanted to go, with varying shots of hitting the second ball at 1/4 and 1/2 and almost 1/1 thickness on last shot)
The players who played billiards for a while and reached a certain level must practise the "roll method / extended shots" a lot.

Hopefully the translation made sense.

One more note, correct, the ball must not be "punched" in carom games, but rather "rolled" (along with the follow through of the cue) in order to arrive at the desired location on table, and that this technique will help with lowering deflection and also assist in arriving the same location with varying angles...in a nutshell!

Thanks for the translation. It appears he is talking about the fact that a rolling cue ball caroms at about a 30 degree angle for a wide range of hits of varying thicknesses, whereas a sliding cue ball takes off at a 90 degree angle (tangent line). With a sliding cue ball there is only one spot you can hit the object ball to arrive at a certain point on the cushion, with a rolling cue ball there are many spots to hit the object ball to arrive at that about that same point.

Ipitythefool,

Great points, thanks for the translation :thumbup:. I've been trying to "roll" the CB for a year now and never understand the effect it has on the shot.

Ipity, You seem to possess a lot of knowledge about billiards and i'd like to ask you and anyone outhere a question. My apology for changing the subject.

When top players step up to the table and take a shot (i mean just any kind of a shot in general). Before executing the shot, what are the things that they take into consideration in order to make the carom?

Thanks

Rich93 said:

Thanks for the translation. It appears he is talking about the fact that a rolling cue ball caroms at about a 30 degree angle for a wide range of hits of varying thicknesses, whereas a sliding cue ball takes off at a 90 degree angle (tangent line). With a sliding cue ball there is only one spot you can hit the object ball to arrive at a certain point on the cushion, with a rolling cue ball there are many spots to hit the object ball to arrive at that about that same point.

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I think you perfectly put together what he was trying to explain in a simpler nutshell than me

3c4ever said:

Ipitythefool,

Great points, thanks for the translation :thumbup:. I've been trying to "roll" the CB for a year now and never understand the effect it has on the shot.

Ipity, You seem to possess a lot of knowledge about billiards and i'd like to ask you and anyone outhere a question. My apology for changing the subject.

When top players step up to the table and take a shot (i mean just any kind of a shot in general). Before executing the shot, what are the things that they take into consideration in order to make the carom?

Thanks

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Well, I am not as good as you may think, not even, but thanks for the kind words. Perhaps some better players could make better points than me. The players around me are usually anywhere from 0.800 to 1.200 average players, me being just around 1.00. And there is a huge gap between pro players, and thus things they take into consideration before executing a shot, as opposed to players around me. Because, even in tournament environment, the players at my level are not fully investigating into how to make a shot, as much as pros do.

You are right that, top players almost always appear like they are doing the same rituals before getting into executing a shot.

As far as I can observe the top players, like you do, they are basically looking at both the other cue ball's and red ball's direction, trying to decide which ball to pick to play with, first of all. And they are taking their time while doing so, just so that they don't miss out on a simpler shot. And then they look at the arrival angle, arrival to the third ball.

If the arrival point is close to the rail, sometimes they are using diamond systems to assist with the shot and also to get into position play.

After this, they must be calculating the thickness with which they must hit the second ball, and direction it will take, to prevent a possible kiss. Interestingly enough, those top players are HARDLY EVER getting a kiss on their shots! And they pay attention to the tempo (hitting strength) applied on the second ball, in order to try and get it into position play.

And as for "bricole" shots (I mean, rail/cushion shots and then making the point, sorry I am lost in English again, as I do not know the right terminology) if they will be playing by using diamond system, I know that most of the time they calculate with two different diamond systems, and verify each upon each other before finding the first departing point.

Most of the times when watching players like Blomdahl or Jaspers, rather than choosing a shot that seems much simpler to the players like us, they are opting for a bricole (3 rail first) shot.

And rather than choosing a simpler shot but with a high risk of kiss, they seem to be choosing a harder-to-execute shot with less chances of risk.

IMO, these are the rituals (and their thinking process) they must be going thru before each shot. Now that they brought new rules, that a player must hit within 50 seconds, they got much faster, meaning they do all this in a faster thinking process. And they can still reach high runs, but IMO, when they had more time to think, they were reaching higher runs. But from the audience standpoint, I think 50 seconds rule made it more watchable for the "less-interested" carom crowd...

I think about how to score the point, of course, including system calculations, kiss avoidance, and spin and aim adjustments. But I also think about where all the balls will be located when the shot is over, and within these thoughts I include thoughts about position and defense. How much I emphasize each of these factors for a given shot depends on the difficulty of the shot and how thoughtful and careful I have to be given the skill of my opponent, the stage of the match and whether I am winning or losing. Actually, how thoughtful I have to be should not be a consideration, but human nature being what it is, it always seems to creep into the picture, particularly in pick-up games.

Yup, your defensive approach is how I plan my game as well.

As for human nature creeping into the nature, IMO, 3 cushion is only 30% skills, and 70% mental strength..don't letting your nerves crash :wink:

I usually crash in money games. Need some extra dough in pocket to chill

ipitythefool said:

And as for "bricole" shots (I mean, rail/cushion shots and then making the point, sorry I am lost in English again, as I do not know the right terminology) if they will be playing by using diamond system, I know that most of the time they calculate with two different diamond systems, and verify each upon each other before finding the first departing point.

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Ipity, i never knew that pros use two diamond systems for bank shot. I usually use the popular Corner 5 system, for example 50 -30 = 20, i think you know the one i'm talking about. Anyways, so what is the other system? do you have some diagram of it?

What you said about the things that pros take into consideration before executing a shot really make a lot of sense. I only have 3 three years of experience in 3C and my average is around 700 to 800 so i'm sure that i have a lot to learn. I'll be very happy when my average reaches about 1...

I have collected about 7 or 8 systems from reading books and learning from players around me. A couple of those systems hava number calculation such as the corner 5 and the plus system which is nornally use in bank shots. Other systems deal with balls positions, thickness of ball hit, diamond and english use, very interesting but difficult to learn. I also try to remember some spicific running lines of the cue ball. I hope i'm on the right track to improve my game as 3C is so much fun to play...

Bruce, you have years of experience and knowledge. if we have a chance to play then i'll be getting some tips from you...