opening a small room

This is just my own personal observation from what I've seen at my favorite room so only take it for what it's worth, which isn't much.

Anyway, location location location. My favorite room is only a mile from my house and has 8 barboxes and 12 9 footers, all Diamonds. Owner keeps the equipment in great shape and he's still struggling every month to stay open mostly because of his location. There's virtually no foot traffic around his place unless you're specifically looking for the pool hall already. As you've said, a pool room can't make it on pool players alone and he's just not getting nearly enough non-players in there.

The other thing that I notice is players can be cheap. Maybe this only happens at my room, but it's ridiculous. You know those daytime regulars that you mention playing golf for 4 hours a day? This room has those guys and almost every one of them is a cheap SOB. They all want senior discounts, long play discounts, etc., etc. Every single one of them packs up and leaves at 5:58 because the rates go up at 6:00. They never order anything more than one cup of coffee from the cafe. I'm not trying to be too doom and gloom, I would just plan on your daytime regulars as being sort of an extra bonus, not something that will keep you afloat.

Again, this is just my anecdotal observation, I don't know the first thing about running a pool hall, I just like hanging out at them.

WingsFan said:

Every single one of them packs up and leaves at 5:58 because the rates go up at 6:00.

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That is actually OK, they represent a certain percent of the clientele that you can't do without. The everyday customer you can set your clock by who seems to spend just a small amount is as important as the guy who comes in every once and a while and spends what seems like a lot more. They can't be counted on, the everyday guy can, he pays your nut. Just something that has to be considered, every customer has their own value.

I would scrap the membership idea.

Are you willing to give up $100 immediately for future gain. Most won't. And the numbers don't work for you anyway.

Give an afternoon discount like.....play all afternoon (til 6p) for $5 per person.
Spending time looking for daytime business is a waste. Those who take the game seriously can have discounted practice time in the afternoon. A way of giving back to them.

Then, set a fair evening rate that you like and keep it. No discounts for anyone.

dirtydog48 said:

Sell non-alchoholic drinks...

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Most of the small rooms around here survive on BEER sales and food sold to league players. Actual rates for the 9' tables are largely irrelevant. They usually have up to 4 Valley tables and can count on the APA crowd on Mondays and the VNEA crowd on Tuesdays with up to 30 players each day.
A few also have BCA league played on the 9' tables. I've been in a few of them on non-league nights and they are almost empty except for a few locals who use the room as a meeting place.

dirtydog48 said:

and I need some pool players' opinions. The room will be small, 8-10 tables. It will be 4or5 9', couple bar boxes and a 6 by 12. The nut will be under a $100/day working most of the hours my self. The equipment will be paid for. The orientation will be teaching, memberships and some retail. The equipment will be good quality, but used. Simonis cloth and superior lighting only over tables. Sell non-alchoholic drinks, and maybe some good quality, mid-priced cues and accessories. Limited music, no loud volume. The location is a small mall (3 stores) a mile from a factory and a skill center for local school districts. Traffic count is around 10,000 a day and there is a stop light in front of the location. The neighborhood is residential with about 10,000 residents within a mile. Two rooms went belly-up in the last 2 years in the city, but I have learned from their mistakes. Neither had residential, kids who wanted to play had to be dropped off or drive. They had huge overheads, $10-12,000/Month. They had to charge $4-5/hour per person and had very few customers play over an hour.
My questions are:
1. Pricing- I am thinking of charging $100 membership fee/year that entitles holder to $2/hr pool from open (around noon) to 6pm and on open tables after 6. Members would have to give up table to retail customers or pay evening rate ($5/hr for first person and $2 for each additional player) to keep table after 6.
2. Would I need barboxes in this environment or put in another 9 footer?
3. Kids under 15 pay $2/hr before 6.
4. Daytime regular rate would be $3/person.
5. Beginner lessons would be free, but we would charge for more advanced instruction. I am probably a Bplus- A- player and would teach beginners.
My experience has shown a room cannot survive on 'pool players', but I think I can market to non-'players' and grow some future players this way. I will need to capitalize on peak playing hours due to the room size, but I think I can make allowances for 'players' thru memberships and daytime rates. There are no 6 by 12s in town and I think I can keep 5 to 10 people playing golf 4 to 6 hours a day. That should contribute $20 to $60/day toward the nut.
Any opinions will be GREATLY appreciated. This seems to be a very pool/people savy crowd.

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First thing you should do is to ask yourself a question - > why did I open a poolhall? Or did I opened a sports bar? You will not make a good money of a poolhall no matter what you do! You will make a good money of a sport bar, but you will not create any poolplayers in that kind of enviroment. In a sport bar you can do whole bunch of things including big tv's and games. In a poolhall you may do, but don't expect to make any money. You will propablly suffer trying to run a poolhall for poolplayers. Like someone here said they will buy 1 drink within 4 hours of practice, but most likely they will take a free water. I've been working 10 years in poolhalls and sports bars.

dirtydog48 said:

...(I do not expect over half a dozen to do it...

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So why would you do it? Like I said, the numbers don't work for you. Do you need $600 real bad or something?

If you don't sell beer....Your profits are based on time, candy/ soda machine, juke box,video games and that profit has only a certain potential....How much beer can you sell in one good night.....But if you target kids they always seem to have money...As opposed to the cheap ass regulars that exist every where....I mapped all this out as I almost opened a room had all the equipment ect could'nt find a spot which was a blessing....Good luck

The Kiss said:

How much beer can you sell in one good night?

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I don't know, I had one room with only 12 tables and a service bar with seating for only 10 people and I could go through 10 to 15 cases on a good night not counting take out with my package license. I had a bunch of apartment houses right behind me and they came in and out all night getting soda and six packs to go. It was not unusual to have a table come up and between pool and beer have an $80.00 tab. You can't make that with a few kids drinking a coke and a bag of chips. Without the beer a couple of guys may come in play an hour and then go somewhere they can get a cold beer before going home. With the beer they will stay all night spending money, there is no comparison it's not even close.

Small Room

dirtydog48 said:

and I need some pool players' opinions. The room will be small, 8-10 tables. It will be 4or5 9', couple bar boxes and a 6 by 12. The nut will be under a $100/day working most of the hours my self. The equipment will be paid for. The orientation will be teaching, memberships and some retail. The equipment will be good quality, but used. Simonis cloth and superior lighting only over tables. Sell non-alchoholic drinks, and maybe some good quality, mid-priced cues and accessories. Limited music, no loud volume. The location is a small mall (3 stores) a mile from a factory and a skill center for local school districts. Traffic count is around 10,000 a day and there is a stop light in front of the location. The neighborhood is residential with about 10,000 residents within a mile. Two rooms went belly-up in the last 2 years in the city, but I have learned from their mistakes. Neither had residential, kids who wanted to play had to be dropped off or drive. They had huge overheads, $10-12,000/Month. They had to charge $4-5/hour per person and had very few customers play over an hour.
My questions are:
1. Pricing- I am thinking of charging $100 membership fee/year that entitles holder to $2/hr pool from open (around noon) to 6pm and on open tables after 6. Members would have to give up table to retail customers or pay evening rate ($5/hr for first person and $2 for each additional player) to keep table after 6.
2. Would I need barboxes in this environment or put in another 9 footer?
3. Kids under 15 pay $2/hr before 6.
4. Daytime regular rate would be $3/person.
5. Beginner lessons would be free, but we would charge for more advanced instruction. I am probably a Bplus- A- player and would teach beginners.
My experience has shown a room cannot survive on 'pool players', but I think I can market to non-'players' and grow some future players this way. I will need to capitalize on peak playing hours due to the room size, but I think I can make allowances for 'players' thru memberships and daytime rates. There are no 6 by 12s in town and I think I can keep 5 to 10 people playing golf 4 to 6 hours a day. That should contribute $20 to $60/day toward the nut.
Any opinions will be GREATLY appreciated. This seems to be a very pool/people savy crowd.

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Forget the $100 membership, thats a pipe dream. Go after birthday parties, late night restaurant employees and let them go to their cars when needed. Undercut all rooms in the area for daytime pricing. Sell cues, have kid tournaments put in a soda fountain if possible otherwise get a vendor to supply the product, when it goes out of expiration your not stuck. Advertise on a billboard, get a great opening writeup in your local newspaper. Give great rates during the day, give out free pool for an hour cards (with expiration) to everyone you see when your not working. Have a very pretty gal work and attract the local HS boys, they girls will always be coming and taking your male clientele from you, especially on the weekends. Don't own any vending machines until after 2 years. Advertise to your "TARGET" market and make sure you know how to find em and GOOD LUCK. Location is everything with this clientele, remember kids have so many other things that society offers that they won't stay much more than 90 minutes at a time, and when on a wait good luck.

In my city, theres 3 pool halls.

First one has been open since the 60's, but owned by several different people, but it has the nice old pool hall feeling. The tables are kinda old, all Brunswick 9ft's and valley 7fts. The Valley's where re-felted last summer, but are pretty worn out. And all but two of the 9fts have shitty felt. The rates are good 2$ per hour, per person. He does have a pro-shop, and is very good at replacing tips/ferrules and all that stuff. Now i stopped going there back in april i think, because of personal reasons, but will probably start to go back very soon. And he does have food and drinks, no beer.

Second one, is the one i frequent now, has about 30tables which are about 6yrs old, all brunswick tables. vast assortment of 7ft,8ft and 9ft and 2 billiards tables. Now the rates are mon-thurs 3$ per hour/person, and weekends its 8$ flat rate. they have food and drinks, no beer, and can replace tips. The tables play pretty good, but the 7fts could use new felt. 99% of people only play on 7ft tables.

3rd place is a pool hall / restaurant sports bar, and has all Diamond tables 7ft and 9ft, which they play so nice! rate is 3$ per hour/person all the time. The dont have a proshop or any way to replace tips or anything. Its a nice place, but it got a bad rep, for not being able to get and decent service, along with bad management too. Which in Nov they will have been open for 1 yr, so basically after several months things died down alot. They are still busy during leagues but that is mainly it. They do have a full menu along with beer/alcohol too. So that tends to attract people expecially on the weekends.

Now, before i stopped going to place #1 it was pretty busey all the time and on the weekends there was times all the tables were taken. Now, i dont know what the place is like now, but i know during the summer it was pretty dead.

place #2 was fairly busy like place #1 but also had its dead times during the summer and during the winter is busier, with leagues and tournaments too.

place 3 not sure, but havent been there in weeks lol.

But i do know place #1 did have for a long time, last yr, a summer specials and other stuff like,, a Ladies night, or nights where u could play all nite for 5$ after 5pm

dirtydog48 said:

Cause I have been a pool junky my whole life and feel the game is worth sharing. I will not do alchohol because I have been clean and sober since '89 (1989 that is, ha) and will not promote drinking in any form. It is too bad so many, even here, cannot separate having a beer from the sport of pool. Too many feel it is a 'game', not a sport. All I want is to cover the nut and maybe a little more as I am sort of retired anyway. I appreciate the opinions and maybe I am a little too much of a purist to feel others might appreciate the sport for what it is like I do. I do believe the respondees her reflect the general public's attitude and changing it may just be too much of an uphill battle. Maybe I will just add a room to my house with a couple tables and make it a private club. It is too bad the state of pool has deteriorated to the point that you all are correct, you can not make a living with a pool room.

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I was just speaking objectively, I don't believe you should be in the bar business, it would be hypocritical. Not everything is done for money, if you can afford it you should do the kind of place you would like and be happy, that's what's important. I don't drink, I never have in fact I detest drinking. I had very mixed feelings about the business I was in and it had a lot to do with me no longer being in the business. I saw what happened to people and here I was profiting from it, not the way to live your life.

Will you be serving food and beverages? Even microwave (sorry KT) burritos and pizzas, but the more selection, the better. Buy from Costco and mark them up. Candy bars - people like sweets and chips and energy drinks/juices. If you have more money to invest in the quality of food, that is recommended, as you can make more of a reputation, but then it may involve a kitchen and a cook too. Same with drinks, where you could invent your own 'branded' drink. Serve lattes, etc. Sometimes, you might want to just serve free coffee as a loss leader to people who PAY for pool.

When I was a house pro at Jillian's, they would put out a fish bowl, have business people put in their business cards or kids write their email and phone numbers down for a monthly drawing to win a 'party' which included 7 friends and table time (only 1-2 tables) for a few hours. Most of those parties could be held before 6. Your 'house pro' schmoozes, gives cheap lessons to non-players, etc. Serve free chips. Also can do birthday parties the same way, but add cake, ice cream, balloons and candles. The last 2 you can get cheap at the dollar store.

Also, get microwave popcorn and salty stuff that they need to drink with. The smell of good popcorn (don't get the cheap stuff) is contagious. Have large napkins (not the cheapo ones) so people will wipe off the grease.

Give kid's slumber parties on week nights in the summer or on school breaks(or advertise as parent's night out and do it on a Friday night). The kids campout with their sleeping bags and are chaperoned at all times by more than 1 adult. This is to allay fears of sexual misconduct. The kids come in around 8, (6 if you want to feed them and add on to the price), have snacks, planned activities, games (I can tell you some if you want), and kiddy 'tournaments. Have inexpensive prizes for all different categories, like most inventive shot, etc. Play HORSE on the table. Get a few quick lessons in on basics.

Try to attract business people in your area by giving lunch specials - a burger menu, 1 soda and an hr. of free pool anytime between 11-1 for $5-$10.

I agree on a membership, but I would do a monthly one. So much for the membership, maybe $25-$30, but don't also charge time. Let them play in the dead hours.

Another good idea is to get corporate party bookings (even weddings!) Have your house pro do 'biathlons' or 'triathlons' with pool, ping pong and darts, if you have them. They are fun mixers. I would pair up 2 people or compose a team out of people from different departments that don't ordinarily work together, with really lax rules. They thought it was hilarious.

Have daytime leagues or tournaments if there are enough people with night or no regular jobs.

Have a small pro shop - sell low to mid priced cues and equipment. Some pool places will let you get their stuff on consignment.

Throw a grand opening where you might raffle off some cues or equipment. Give out some relatively cheap items that they can win as doorprizes - 8ball antenna toppers, cue scuffers, cue cleaner, tip tappers, etc. Then they might buy a cue as well. If you have the dough, there are tons of pros and semipros (both players and trick shot artists) that will do exhibitions. I know some personally who do a great job. Have pictures they can have autographed with the pro and do challenge matches. Put out press releases to all media. Some off-night in sports might get tv coverage. Another good tie-in would be to hold a benefit for a charity (Katrina?) with the proceeds or a portion of them going to the charity. That will get you press for sure. And you can deduct all the expenses as advertising on your taxes.

Be creative - you can have a tournament or special party night just based on the holidays or tax time or anything to use as a theme. Don't just use US holidays - you can use international or goofy ones too.

Same with sponsoring a couple players in local tournaments or tours. Have them wear your logo and pay their entries in return for house pro-ing or running tournaments. Give them free table time in off hours. Tax-deductible as advertising.

Make sure you have a hip, identifiable logo. Emblazon your logo on shirts, pool towels, etc. and that can be a good sideline income if they become in- demand. Brand recognition and loyalty can bring on a life of its own. Set your identity early and stick with it - it can influence the decor, what kind of music is played (and the volume!) and what food and drinks are sold.

Advertise in your local billiard paper. If you throw regular weekly tournaments, sometimes you can get in that section without paying for advertising. Tax-deductible.

Sponsor pool teams to go to Vegas and run leagues. Tax-deductible as advertising.

And a poolroom may not make money, but they really have to hold tournaments. One way to be able to add more money is done all the time with green fees. The green fee is to compensate the owner for lost table time they would normally get during tournament play. Players expect to pay this. So say you had a weekend tournament and were going to add $500. If you had 32 players and they paid a $30 entry and a $10 green fee, you have just gotten $320 of your $500 to add, so in reality, all that is coming out of pocket is $180 which if you serve any food or drinks at all, you should at least break even. The players get $1460 in payouts and you only paid $180. I like giving the first bracket out of the money free table time in off hours or a free meal. So you look good to the players and it's a win-win. Make sure there is a camera to record winners, etc. It's vital that your tournaments run smoothly with a good director. Pay them if you have to. Some will work for a meal!

Scotch doubles tournaments are fun and the women drag the men there and vice-versa. Have local businesses donate door prizes/meals and make them fun.

Can you have pull tabs? Those are great money makers, but I'm not sure what the criteria is for being able to have them - it probably varies by city or state.

Get an inexpensive website. One of your regulars will know how to put it up if you don't. Trade them table time for site maintenance. Make sure the website is on your business cards and all ads. Put up the pictures of people, tournaments, etc.

Hope you get some ideas from this. I have more but this is all I can think of right now. Good luck!

Linda

Oh, I forgot something - the reason you are collecting those email addresses in the fish bowl is to have an emailing list to send out notices of specials, tournaments, etc. This will save a ton of $ in flyers, etc. and people have extensive email lists themselves that they will forward on to. There are automatic mailing programs that once you input the addresses, it will automatically email. It is not spam because they offered you their email. Remember the hosting fees are tax deductible!

On your website or just separately, you may want to do a newsletter to let people know of the specials for the month, past tournament results, even news about regulars (babies, marriages, etc.) so people start to feel like family.

Another technology thing - look into making your place a wi-fi hot spot. We computer geeks are attracted to pool. You can set it up that to get access they need to buy an hour's worth of table time or whatever.

OK, I really am done now.

Linda

Dirtydog48:

Where will your room be located? FWIW, it sounds like the kind of room I'd enjoy playing in.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

dirtydog48 said:

Cause I have been a pool junky my whole life and feel the game is worth sharing. I will not do alchohol because I have been clean and sober since '89 (1989 that is, ha) and will not promote drinking in any form. It is too bad so many, even here, cannot separate having a beer from the sport of pool. Too many feel it is a 'game', not a sport. All I want is to cover the nut and maybe a little more as I am sort of retired anyway. I appreciate the opinions and maybe I am a little too much of a purist to feel others might appreciate the sport for what it is like I do. I do believe the respondees her reflect the general public's attitude and changing it may just be too much of an uphill battle. Maybe I will just add a room to my house with a couple tables and make it a private club. It is too bad the state of pool has deteriorated to the point that you all are correct, you can not make a living with a pool room.

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'89, huh? Me too! I don't know diddly about running a business so I can't help you too much. I just want to wish you the best of luck and say I admire your good intentions. As you say, if you just want to get by and not get rich, that layout may work for you. I quit smoking in '69, if it were non-smoking too it would definitely be my favorite room.
Break a leg!

Sounds like you are retired, don't really need the money and just want to run a business to keep busy and have a place to go everyday. Nothing wrong with that. I tried that with a small store in Kentucky a few years back. My problem was I did not check the demographics. I opened a model train store and later found out nobody in the area played with trains.

In your case I would suggest you buy and own your own jukebox. I have had several owners tell me that the juke box pays their bills.