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Rules Question - Frozen Balls - 10-06-2010, 06:29 AM

First off, this has nothing to do about playing outdoors in Alaska.

A question came up in our league play on Monday and we couldn't reach an agreement.

If the cue ball is frozen to an object ball, can you or can you not stroke through the CB in the direction of the OB? Is it OK or is it a foul?
Thanks for your help,
Harry
  
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10-06-2010, 06:44 AM

Good Luck trying to win this debate !!!


The Player side of me says i have a deadshot to the corner, but i am frozen to that ball of course i can play it.

the opponent side of me, says he has to shoot away from the ball. he cant shoot it dead on, he only needs one more point to win !!!!


LOL,LOL get my point !

-Steve

Joking aside, i really feel that you must shoot away from the ball. you cannot shoot directly at it !


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Frozen Balls
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Frozen Balls - 10-06-2010, 07:44 AM

I think that if they are frozen you can stroke straight through it. This happened against me twice in one match Thursday.

I will of course, defer to Mr. Jewett.
  
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10-06-2010, 07:58 AM

if they are frozen you can shoot through the ball, as long as there isn't another ball close by (it would foul if on your stroke through you double hit).



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10-06-2010, 08:17 AM

It is in fact true that you can stroke through the balls ONLY if they are frozen!
  
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10-06-2010, 10:13 AM

WPA rule on this:
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
If the cue stick contacts the cue ball more than once on a shot, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is close to but not touching an object ball and the cue tip is still on the cue ball when the cue ball contacts that object ball, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is very close to an object ball, and the shooter barely grazes that object ball on the shot, the shot is assumed not to violate the first paragraph of this rule, even though the tip is arguably still on the cue ball when ball-ball contact is made.
However, if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball. (Even though it may be legal to shoot towards such a touching or “frozen” ball, care must be taken not to violate the rules in the first paragraph if there are additional balls close by.)
The cue ball is assumed not to be touching any ball unless it is declared touching by the referee or opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to get the declaration before the shot. Playing away from a frozen ball does not constitute having hit that ball unless specified in the rules of the game.
  
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Frozen Balls
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Smile Frozen Balls - 10-06-2010, 10:35 AM

Gentlemen,
Thanks for all of your responses. AtLarge's extract from the WPA rules seems to put the issue to bed. But if anyone else has some input, it's certainly welcomed.
Harry
  
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10-06-2010, 11:08 AM

Regardless of how the rules are currently written, I still like something Grady Mathews said regarding these type shots. I'll have to paraphrase because I don't know exactly how he said it, but basically, he said that he felt any of these shots should not be called a foul if when shooting the shot "the cue ball shows character".

I think if the rule was as simple as this it would be better. In other words the CB shows some stop or draw characteristic to it rather than beating out the OB on the way to the pocket. I think this ends all debate and simplifies everything.

But, that's just my opinion, and of course Grady's.

I've always wondered why this was such a stickler of an issue with players and miscuing under the CB is never called a foul. I mean you are hitting the CB with the ferrule. How many times are shots made like this and players continue to shoot without issue.

This, to me seems much more an obvious foul.
  
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03-26-2011, 10:33 AM

Along the same line, is it a legal shot or a foul if the cue ball frozen to an object is shot to rail and moving the object ball or striking the cue ball and sending the object ball to a rail?
  
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03-26-2011, 11:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpp&d View Post
First off, this has nothing to do about playing outdoors in Alaska.

A question came up in our league play on Monday and we couldn't reach an agreement.

If the cue ball is frozen to an object ball, can you or can you not stroke through the CB in the direction of the OB? Is it OK or is it a foul?
Thanks for your help,
Harry
The thing that makes it a foul when the CB and OB are close together is the double hit of the cue with the cue ball. If the balls are frozen then you are allowed to stroke through because this does not result in a double hit.

Here's a super slo-mo from Dr. Dave's site of stroking through when the balls are frozen. You can clearly see there is no double hit - that is why stroking through is OK.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_...ew/HSVA-96.htm

Here's an example of a double hit when the balls are not frozen but very close together. If the CB follows the OB on these type shots it virtually has to be the result of a double hit:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_...ew/HSVA-12.htm


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Last edited by DogsPlayingPool; 03-26-2011 at 11:23 AM.
  
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Frozen - 03-26-2011, 09:02 PM

Two things come to mind when thinking of this situation ~ 1.) Get a referee or a 3rd party who is familiar with the rule BEFORE the shot is made, because as Steve said, depending on if you're the shooter or the opponent, there's going to be 2 ways of classifying the shot and an argument WILL ensue, trust me. 2.) When I'm the shooter, I tend to feel more comfortable to jack up and strike down on the CB giving it irrefutable backspin, which to me, signifies a legal hit (not a double hit) and not a "push", as is the case when the CB travels faster than the object ball after the hit. That's my two cents.

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03-27-2011, 08:15 AM

This is (as has been pointed out above) perhaps the most contentious shot in pool as far as the rules are concerned.

As far as the rules are concerned, it's pretty clear. You can take any normal stroke through or partly into an object ball that's frozen to the cue ball. If you play almost directly at the ball and use follow, it's possible for the cue ball to pass the object ball as they go together down the table. By the current rules, that's perfectly legal. You are not required to jack up on the shot, and whether the cue ball slows with draw has no bearing on the legality of the shot.

As far as what's happening physically on the shot, there's a lot more information available now than there was 15 years ago due to the ultra-high-speed videos that have been made to study the shot. On frozen ball shots, there is only one tip-to-cue ball contact and you don't get a double hit. Whether that's true or not has little bearing on the rule, but it's nice to know that you aren't double-hitting the cue ball on such shots.

When faced with a nearly frozen situation, some players will jack up and get some draw to slow the cue ball down and claim a good stroke. Of course such shots are clearly fouls. Nearly frozen is treated in the rules as very, very different from frozen.


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03-27-2011, 08:27 AM

You may have noticed the parenthetical remark in the text of the rule about being careful of fouling on nearby balls. When I first saw this, I was puzzled, but consider this situation:

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It is legal to shoot straight at the 1 ball, but the 2 ball complicates things. On a legal hit, the cue ball will be stopped dead and the 2 and 1 will go down the table at nearly the same speed. Try this yourself beginning with a larger separation between the 1 and 2. You can even draw the cue ball with what looks like normal draw. As you move the 2 ball closer to the 1 ball, you will find that the cue ball eventually stops stopping unless you arrange to shorten your stroke. There are several standard techniques to limit your follow through to less than a half inch, and those can be useful on this shot.


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03-27-2011, 09:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post

When faced with a nearly frozen situation, some players will jack up and get some draw to slow the cue ball down and claim a good stroke. Of course such shots are clearly fouls. Nearly frozen is treated in the rules as very, very different from frozen.
Are you saying that this situation is always a foul, or just when the cue ball follows the object ball more than half a ball?
  
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03-27-2011, 09:08 AM

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Originally Posted by desmocourtney View Post
Are you saying that this situation is always a foul, or just when the cue ball follows the object ball more than half a ball?
The "half a ball" guideline was never a rule. It was just a guideline for inexperienced referees and never a rule, although it was listed among the rules.

When the cue ball is very close to but not touching the object ball, usually any visible immediate penetration comes from a foul. On the other hand, it is possible to legally follow several feet when the balls are only a half-inch apart (or even less). There are several standard stroke techniques that enable this.

A good referee will be aware of what the action of the balls indicates about double hits. Many people who act as referees are not well prepared for such shots. As a player, this makes life uncertain.


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