assembly methods

whammo57 · Feb 7, 2011

If you have a cored forearm and a cored handle, can they be joined without a metal threaded pin or threaded wooden tenon?? If you have points or inlays it would be difficult to line them up when using threads.

Is it a strong enough joint just using a tenon and epoxy or gorilla glue?

thanks

Kim

BLACKHEARTCUES · Feb 7, 2011

I turn the forearm, handle & butt sleeve, several times with rest in between. Then I join the forearm & rings to the handle using a tenon & 3/8-10 screw (whether aluminum or steel). Then after a rest I take a cut on the forearm-handle assembly, finishing with the cutting of about a 4" x 3/4" tenon. Then I drill & bore a 3/4" hole in the butt sleeve. Then I join the butt sleeve & butt cap, to the afore mentioned forearm - handle assembly. After another rest I cut the whole thing, to a just a little oversized. THAT is when I do all of my inlays. It's no problem keeping them lined up. Hope this helps...JER
P.S. If I am doing "V" bottom points, I put them in just before the forearm is joined to the handle.

juspooln · Feb 7, 2011

you can always take a little off one or both sides to get everything lined up provided you bored and tapped a deep enough hole but back to your question that's the great thing about you creating it you can do it any way you desire just be sure while you are testing something new out you keep the cue close by friend or family don't pass it off on customers it can be hazardous to your rep

pdcue · Feb 8, 2011

whammo57 said:
If you have a cored forearm and a cored handle, can they be joined without a metal threaded pin or threaded wooden tenon?? If you have points or inlays it would be difficult to line them up when using threads.

Is it a strong enough joint just using a tenon and epoxy or gorilla glue?

thanks

Kim

If you truly feel you need to core both the front and the handle,
why not just put both of them on the same dowel?

Dale

whammo57 · Feb 8, 2011

pdcue said:
If you truly feel you need to core both the front and the handle,
why not just put both of them on the same dowel?

Dale

I was cutting butterflies on the forearm and the butt sleeve and I thought it was easier if they were on a coring dowel.

I just cored the handle so it would have a core the full length of the butt.

I wanted the butterflies to line up so I did not use threaded pins at the 2 joints. I used a 3 inch tenon on the forearm and on the butt and bored the handle to receive them. It was a tight fit and I cut glue rings on the tenons. The coring dowel was .650 and I made the tenons .500.

I used devcon 30 min epoxy.... I don't think it will really ever fall apart.

Kim

JoeyInCali · Feb 8, 2011

whammo57 said:
I was cutting butterflies on the forearm and the butt sleeve and I thought it was easier if they were on a coring dowel.

I just cored the handle so it would have a core the full length of the butt.

I wanted the butterflies to line up so I did not use threaded pins at the 2 joints. I used a 3 inch tenon on the forearm and on the butt and bored the handle to receive them. It was a tight fit and I cut glue rings on the tenons. The coring dowel was .650 and I made the tenons .500.

I used devcon 30 min epoxy.... I don't think it will really ever fall apart.

Kim

Why not join the handle core wood to the forearm, true it up.
Then join the handle sleeve.

whammo57 · Feb 8, 2011

JoeyInCali said:
Why not join the handle core wood to the forearm, true it up.
Then join the handle sleeve.

I could have done that but I first turned each piece round then bored and cored each. Then I turned each piece on the butt taper to within .100 from finished size and then did the butterflies. It was easier to index, off set the tail stock and keep the router away from the tail stock and the chuck.

When it came time to assemble the butt, I put the rings where they belong, faced them off, made the tenons and glued it up.

Is my method not acceptable??? Does every connection require a metal threaded pin or wooden threads??

Kim

Tony Zinzola · Feb 8, 2011

whammo57 said:
I used devcon 30 min epoxy.... I don't think it will really ever fall apart.

Kim

I wouldn't trust 5, 20, 30 or even 60 minute epoxy to hold one of my cues together and I would have something threaded in there as well.

scdiveteam · Feb 8, 2011

pdcue said:
If you truly feel you need to core both the front and the handle,
why not just put both of them on the same dowel?

Dale

Hi,

I agree with Dale about coring on one dowel!

I love Gorilla Glue because of it's expansion coefficient and 2000 year half life. Like Tony, I would not trust epoxy in a core either because when it pistons out unevenly it can cause buzzes later on. With Gorilla glue you can leave over a .010 annulus gap and with the water catalyst you get a complete expansion fill that will be in that structure state longer than the wood will last after we are all dead and gone!

After the GG cures, take a metal wrench and tap the wood. I love the ring of a piece cored with GG.

Over the last 3 years I have gone out of my way to mistreat the wood for my full cored test cues by not hanging them, leaning them up against cold outside walls, hog turning them to dimension in one day and everything in between to commit wood abuse. After assembly and introduction into the field, not one of these evil stepchild cues have moved.

Rick G

pdcue · Feb 8, 2011

whammo57 said:
I was cutting butterflies on the forearm and the butt sleeve and I thought it was easier if they were on a coring dowel.

I just cored the handle so it would have a core the full length of the butt.

I wanted the butterflies to line up so I did not use threaded pins at the 2 joints. I used a 3 inch tenon on the forearm and on the butt and bored the handle to receive them. It was a tight fit and I cut glue rings on the tenons. The coring dowel was .650 and I made the tenons .500.

I used devcon 30 min epoxy.... I don't think it will really ever fall apart.

Kim

I'm not sure it is necessarily any easier to cut butterflies on a dowel.
But if it worked for you, it worked.

If you decide you WANT a threaded rod at the 'A' joint, you can use a
longer piece for the handle, turn down a tenon on the butt end, then
slide a butt sleve over the tenon and rotate it so everything
'lines up' perfectly. Pretty much a standard method.

Dale

pdcue · Feb 8, 2011

Tony Zinzola said:
I wouldn't trust 5, 20, 30 or even 60 minute epoxy to hold one of my cues together and I would have something threaded in there as well.

Just to clarify, are you saying you don't trust the bonding capability
of epoxy?

Dale

JoeyInCali · Feb 8, 2011

Tony Zinzola said:
I wouldn't trust 5, 20, 30 or even 60 minute epoxy to hold one of my cues together and I would have something threaded in there as well.

With just a tenon, it will eventually give imo.
There has to be a thread in there imo.
The threads will relieve the epoxy off the stress in holding the two pieces together.
Besides that, it'd also make it hit better imo.

SK Custom Cues · Feb 8, 2011

There was one of the guys, Doug Patrick I believe, who threads a dowel through the entire core of the cue. This, is probably the only other way besides threading just the tenon like Bob Hunter.

What you could do is to try your theory and see how it works.

ratcues · Feb 8, 2011

pdcue said:
Just to clarify, are you saying you don't trust the bonding capability
of epoxy?

Dale

I think its the cure time. The faster the cure, the more brittle the epoxy.

BarenbruggeCues · Feb 8, 2011

can they be joined without a metal threaded pin or threaded wooden tenon

I used to like experimenting with different ways of doing things. More than once I've thought about this very thing. I believe using certain methods you could accomplish a bond there that would work and work well.....but for how long? In the back of my mind something wouldn't allow myself to tempt fate. There are many things that should not be shortcut when assembling a cue. The A joint in a short spliced cue is number one on the list. To compromise the integrity of this one procedure would be haunting.

I used devcon 30 min epoxy.... I don't think it will really ever fall apart.

You seriously need to sit down and rethink your procedures and reasons for building cues. By using the above words in your post it tells everyone that you are not sure about what it is you're doing. What would make anyone rush to your door step to want to invest their hard earned money on something you're not sure about?

Harsh words......maybe...but the truth hurts sometimes.

There is always a different way that may be better but I'm confident that a threaded A joint is better than a bore and dowel connection no matter what type of glue is being used.

One of the things a professional crafts person should pride themselves on is doing something in a way that they will never have repair or fix it for the as long as the product is in service because of something they did or did not do.

We're all human...we make mistakes. Don't make that one. Figure out a different method so not to compromise the integrity of the construction methods because of an aesthetic want in the cue.

Tony Zinzola · Feb 8, 2011

pdcue said:
Just to clarify, are you saying you don't trust the bonding capability
of epoxy?

Dale

I'm saying any fast curing epoxy and I would consider 60 minute epoxy fast curing does not bond well. I would not use any of those anywhere in one of my cues.

whammo57 · Feb 8, 2011

words from the wise

OK

So this is what I have gleaned from this round:

All the joints, and mainly the A joint needs to have some threaded pin in there for insurance and it's just good assembly practice.

Also .... don't trust fast setting epoxy for those main joints. Maybe west system because it sets slow and it soaks in. But gorilla glue is the best because of its total gap filling ability.

Again.... thanks for the great words of wisdom and the abuse.

Kim

Tony Zinzola · Feb 8, 2011

whammo57 said:
OK

Also .... don't trust fast setting epoxy for those main joints. Maybe west system because it sets slow and it soaks in. But gorilla glue is the best because of its total gap filling ability.

Kim

Just for the record, I don't use Gorilla Glue at the A Joint. Rick likes it, I prefer Epoxy. Just not 30 minute Epoxy.

It's up to you to decide which method works best for you.

I know others use 5 minute epoxy to glue their rings up. I did when I first started and after several months, you can see a ring where the ring meets the cue in those cues. I use West 205 to glue my rings up. I don't care how long it takes. Others say that they've used G5 for years with no issues.

whammo57 · Feb 8, 2011

Tony Zinzola said:
Just for the record, I don't use Gorilla Glue at the A Joint. Rick likes it, I prefer Epoxy. Just not 30 minute Epoxy.

It's up to you to decide which method works best for you.

I know others use 5 minute epoxy to glue their rings up. I did when I first started and after several months, you can see a ring where the ring meets the cue in those cues. I use West 205 to glue my rings up. I don't care how long it takes. Others say that they've used G5 for years with no issues.

Thanks

I will add that to my notes.

Kim

cutter · Feb 8, 2011

Assembly

5 minute epoxy usually uses mercaptan to make it set up fast. That's what also makes it smell different that normal epoxy.
Mercaptan attracts water. Nuff said.

assembly methods

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