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Theory of low deflection cues
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Theory of low deflection cues - 03-16-2011, 10:02 PM

Hello,

in this forum I am a new member. Before I have been in a german billards forum for one and a half years. I like playing pool, and not less I am interested in making cue repairs for my friends and fellows of our billard club.

In last times I more and more think about starting to build cues by my own. By experimenting with used butts and shafts I've tried to get a feeling about the direction of the kind of cues that I may build sometime.

A question that I try to understand and where it is impossible to discuss in a gentle and objektive way in that special german forum, is the question about how a low deflection cue "works". What is it that makes a cue producing low deflection.

I read some articles of "Dr. Dave" who is for sure well known for most of american cuemakers. Am I right?

Dr. Daves articles that I read tell, that deflection or "squirt" depends on the so called "endmass" of the cue. The idea of this theory roughly is that especially at the area of the tip and some inches behind at the front end of the shaft the mass or partial weight of the shaft is the factor the decides of having more or less deflection.

I have searched but not found some continuative or alternative theory or meassurements how the stiffness (the flexibility and the bending line) of the shaft's front end or of whole cue stick affects deflection.

I hope that the specialists of this forum can answer this question much better. In my theory the flexibility, especially the way the front end can flex while contacting the white ball is affecting the deflection mostly. In my "opinion" the most important reasons for more or less deflection are both: stiffness of front end and the mass of the front end. Secondly the stiffness of the whole shaft maybe important also. May be it is the relation between static stiffness (or static bending line under a certain applied load that erases while contacting the white ball) and the end mass. The higher the end mass, the higher deflection. The stiffer the front end and the less flexible he front end, the higher the deflection. The stiffer the whole shaft, the higher the deflection. Roughly spoken. This would also explain that the butt and joint also affects deflection, but less as the shaft itself.

I would be very thankful for getting some feasible explanations from the experts of this forum.

With my best wishes
Michael

Last edited by riedmich; 03-16-2011 at 10:08 PM.
  
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03-16-2011, 10:06 PM

Simply, take the weight of the ball vs. the energy required to deflect the tip end of the cue. The lighter weight the tip end of the cue, the easier it is for it to flex away upon impact. The more it flexes away, the less the ball is pushed off intended track. The heavier it is, the more energy is needed to deflect it so instead, the ball deflects away from the tip, off of intended track. Hopefully that makes sense.


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03-16-2011, 10:19 PM

i would think it would be reversed,but i'm not a cue maker..lol.


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03-16-2011, 10:19 PM

does it mean that a LD shaft will impart more spin given the same amount of deflection vs a conventional shaft ?
  
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03-16-2011, 10:24 PM

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Originally Posted by LILJOHN30 View Post
i would think it would be reversed,but i'm not a cue maker..lol.
I probably didn't explain it clearly. It's easy to show but I have a tough time explaining it.

The heavier the tip end of the shaft, the more the ball is deflected away from the tip. The lighter the tip end, the more the tip is deflected away from the ball. It's simple collision physics. The more massive object moves less than the less massive object. A bicycle hits a parked car at 20mph & flips over it or bounces off of it while the car never moves an inch. A car hits a bicycle at 20mph & the car barely slows down while the bicycle rockets away.


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03-16-2011, 10:28 PM

[QUOTE=qbilder;2911269]I probably didn't explain it clearly. It's easy to show but I have a tough time explaining it.

The heavier the tip end of the shaft, the more the ball is deflected away from the tip. The lighter the tip end, the more the tip is deflected away from the ball. It's simple collision physics. The more massive object moves less than the less massive object. QUOTE]


A bicycle hits a parked car at 20mph & flips over it or bounces off of it while the car never moves an inch. A car hits a bicycle at 20mph & the car barely slows down while the bicycle rockets away.

predator should put this on thier website
plain english gets a thumbs up from me anyday over bs & hype
good seeing you at the sbe eric
brenster> concerned about person on the bike in either scenario



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03-16-2011, 10:28 PM

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Originally Posted by qguy View Post
does it mean that a LD shaft will impart more spin given the same amount of deflection vs a conventional shaft ?
No. Spin is another demon all together. Spin can certainly cloud the results of deflection but isn't actually related.


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03-16-2011, 10:48 PM

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Originally Posted by qbilder View Post
... The lighter weight the tip end of the cue, the easier it is for it to flex away upon impact. The more it flexes away, the less the ball is pushed off intended track. The heavier it is, the more energy is needed to deflect it so instead, the ball deflects away from the tip, off of intended track. Hopefully that makes sense ...
So it might be understood also, that not only the weight of the tip end influences the deflection, but also the possibility to flex --> the stiffness?
  
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03-16-2011, 10:58 PM

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Originally Posted by riedmich View Post
So it might be understood also, that not only the weight of the tip end influences the deflection, but also the possibility to flex --> the stiffness?
No. Only mass vs. mass. The most significant mass moves the least amount, regardless of rigidity. You can bridge the shaft very tightly, forcefully not allowing it to move. But in that situation the shaft is assuming your hand's mass because of the tight grip. That in turn negates any low deflection properties the shaft may have.


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03-16-2011, 11:13 PM

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Originally Posted by qbilder View Post
No. Only mass vs. mass. The most significant mass moves the least amount, regardless of rigidity. You can bridge the shaft very tightly, forcefully not allowing it to move. But in that situation the shaft is assuming your hand's mass because of the tight grip. That in turn negates any low deflection properties the shaft may have.
Talking about the open bridge (edit: shaft not tightly bridged): Is it a difference concerning deflection, if the distance of the bridge to the white ball is very small or if it is very high? Very small distance of bridge - higher deflection?

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03-16-2011, 11:32 PM

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Originally Posted by riedmich View Post
Talking about the open bridge (edit: shaft not tightly bridged): Is it a difference concerning deflection, if the distance of the bridge to the white ball is very small or if it is very high? Very small distance of bridge - higher deflection?
No difference. Nothing measurable, anyway.


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03-16-2011, 11:33 PM

[QUOTE=BHQ;2911272]
Quote:
Originally Posted by qbilder View Post
I probably didn't explain it clearly. It's easy to show but I have a tough time explaining it.

The heavier the tip end of the shaft, the more the ball is deflected away from the tip. The lighter the tip end, the more the tip is deflected away from the ball. It's simple collision physics. The more massive object moves less than the less massive object. QUOTE]


A bicycle hits a parked car at 20mph & flips over it or bounces off of it while the car never moves an inch. A car hits a bicycle at 20mph & the car barely slows down while the bicycle rockets away.

predator should put this on thier website
plain english gets a thumbs up from me anyday over bs & hype
good seeing you at the sbe eric
brenster> concerned about person on the bike in either scenario
That show is a blast. Hundreds of adults acting like college kids.


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03-16-2011, 11:56 PM

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Originally Posted by qbilder View Post
I probably didn't explain it clearly. It's easy to show but I have a tough time explaining it.

The heavier the tip end of the shaft, the more the ball is deflected away from the tip. The lighter the tip end, the more the tip is deflected away from the ball. It's simple collision physics. The more massive object moves less than the less massive object. A bicycle hits a parked car at 20mph & flips over it or bounces off of it while the car never moves an inch. A car hits a bicycle at 20mph & the car barely slows down while the bicycle rockets away.
I think the car/bicycle comparison is by far the best and simplest cue deflection analogy I've ever heard. Thanks!

Richard
  
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03-17-2011, 05:25 AM

The stiffer the front end and the less flexible he front end, the higher the deflection. The stiffer the whole shaft, the higher the deflection THIS IS WRONG

Deflection is only partially related to stiffness/spine. If a shaft had a stiffer taper that was also thicker then it would have more endmass due to the increase in diameter.

This is much better relayed.

Deflection is caused/effected by the endmass of the cue........endmass can be affected by the taper used on the cue, so if the desired spine/stiffness calls for a taper that changes the mass of the shaft then by association can change the deflection..........association only as it can never be the direct cause, as Eric stated the END MASS IS THE REAL REASON FOR DEFLECTION of the CB on off center hits.


Now Spine or shaft stiffness can and does affect the quantity of CB spin you can attain and to what degrees you can attain said spin on a given speed of shot.


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03-28-2011, 10:12 PM

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Originally Posted by greyghost View Post
The stiffer the front end and the less flexible he front end, the higher the deflection. The stiffer the whole shaft, the higher the deflection THIS IS WRONG

Deflection is only partially related to stiffness/spine. If a shaft had a stiffer taper that was also thicker then it would have more endmass due to the increase in diameter.

This is much better relayed.

Deflection is caused/effected by the endmass of the cue........endmass can be affected by the taper used on the cue, so if the desired spine/stiffness calls for a taper that changes the mass of the shaft then by association can change the deflection..........association only as it can never be the direct cause, as Eric stated the END MASS IS THE REAL REASON FOR DEFLECTION of the CB on off center hits.


Now Spine or shaft stiffness can and does affect the quantity of CB spin you can attain and to what degrees you can attain said spin on a given speed of shot.
I don't know the mental states of the authorities in this forum, but by no means I would annoy anyone mentioning meucci, and if I do now please excuse me.

I found at meuccis homepage a document about the red dot shaft. http://www.meuccicues.com/reddot.htm It is written that with such flat laminated shafts the radial direction affects the deflection. If this is true this could mean that shaft-stiffness influences deflection as well as its mass/weight. Does this document tell the truth? Or is it a special matter of advertisement by meucci?

May be there are some persons knowing about these flat laminated shafts like red dot.

Thanks a lot
Michael
  
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