interesting stroke discovery

wigglybridge

wigglybridge

14.1 straight pool!
Silver Member
i posted this in the straight pool forum, and several people suggested i put it up for discussion here, as well.

i've been trying this past week to improve my accuracy on what Matt Tetrault calls "straight-ins": long, straight shots from corner to corner diagonally down the table. despite my recent gains from Matt's help, if i hit those shots hard, my percentage on them is Really dismal. i have the same problem with break shots, but straight-ins eliminate any aiming confusion.

Tues night i practiced them for about 20 minutes, and i was making only 3-4 out of 10 tries over that period. i did a bunch of thinking later about why that might be, and made a list of things that might cause my stroke to go so far off, and ideas to fix it.

Wednesday night i shot them for about an hour, trying all of the things i'd listed. nothing changed. but it dawned on me that i was consistently missing them to the left of the pocket, and often by a good 2". that's at least information. and then i decided to try one more thing i'd seen somewhere in a book, or maybe online: that one difference between some pro strokes and amateurs was in the position of the 'vee' in the right-hand grip on the finish of the stroke. and i thought about the follow thru that many players have on a 9-ball break, Johnny Archer for example, where you see his forefinger practically rolled over on top of the cue and pointing at the head of the stack on his follow through. so i decided to consciously try to pronate my hand counterclockwise and see what happened.

well, what happened was simply unbelievable: i made 20 of those shots. in a row. then i decided maybe i should ease up a little on the pronation to see what would happen. i missed one. then went back to pronating and made another 10 in a row.

i spent about another 20 minutes hitting these shots in each diagonal to assure myself that it wasn't a fluke, and it wasn't. what is a 40% shot at best for me goes immediately to well over 95% if i pronate my wrist counterclockwise as i come forward. this is Not an accident.

now, this of course raises All Kindsa questions. is this pronation actually correcting the reverse habit that i may have had unconsciously? if so, fine, and i should work toward making That the natural way to stroke. but doesn't it seem more likely that it's compensating for something Else that's wrong and should be fixed?

so i wonder if this triggers any ideas about what causes this: my natural "hard" stroke must hit the cue ball slightly to the left of center, thus deflecting it slightly right, so the object ball goes left of the pocket. but as far as i can tell, it only happens when i'm hitting the ball hard; if i slow roll it, no problem. long stop shots and break shots are most obvious, but i wouldn't be surprised if it's also causing some of my other other minor accuracy and repeatability problems on draw shots, for example.

one thing that occurs to me is that all of this was with a closed bridge, and maybe my bridge tilts the cue when i hit hard. i plan to try the same thing with an open bridge to rule that out. or maybe the act of pronating keeps me from clutching the cue and throwing it off line?

please understand that i am Not interested in continuing to shoot with this wacky stroke -- no matter How good the results! it really involves turning the cue almost a quarter-turn during the stroke, and that obviously just isn't going to work. i'm really interested in what diagnostically it says.

any thoughts?
 
wigglybridge said:
i posted this in the straight pool forum, and several people suggested i put it up for discussion here, as well.

i've been trying this past week to improve my accuracy on what Matt Tetrault calls "straight-ins": long, straight shots from corner to corner diagonally down the table. despite my recent gains from Matt's help, if i hit those shots hard, my percentage on them is Really dismal. i have the same problem with break shots, but straight-ins eliminate any aiming confusion.

Tues night i practiced them for about 20 minutes, and i was making only 3-4 out of 10 tries over that period. i did a bunch of thinking later about why that might be, and made a list of things that might cause my stroke to go so far off, and ideas to fix it.

Wednesday night i shot them for about an hour, trying all of the things i'd listed. nothing changed. but it dawned on me that i was consistently missing them to the left of the pocket, and often by a good 2". that's at least information. and then i decided to try one more thing i'd seen somewhere in a book, or maybe online: that one difference between some pro strokes and amateurs was in the position of the 'vee' in the right-hand grip on the finish of the stroke. and i thought about the follow thru that many players have on a 9-ball break, Johnny Archer for example, where you see his forefinger practically rolled over on top of the cue and pointing at the head of the stack on his follow through. so i decided to consciously try to pronate my hand counterclockwise and see what happened.

well, what happened was simply unbelievable: i made 20 of those shots. in a row. then i decided maybe i should ease up a little on the pronation to see what would happen. i missed one. then went back to pronating and made another 10 in a row.

i spent about another 20 minutes hitting these shots in each diagonal to assure myself that it wasn't a fluke, and it wasn't. what is a 40% shot at best for me goes immediately to well over 95% if i pronate my wrist counterclockwise as i come forward. this is Not an accident.

now, this of course raises All Kindsa questions. is this pronation actually correcting the reverse habit that i may have had unconsciously? if so, fine, and i should work toward making That the natural way to stroke. but doesn't it seem more likely that it's compensating for something Else that's wrong and should be fixed?

so i wonder if this triggers any ideas about what causes this: my natural "hard" stroke must hit the cue ball slightly to the left of center, thus deflecting it slightly right, so the object ball goes left of the pocket. but as far as i can tell, it only happens when i'm hitting the ball hard; if i slow roll it, no problem. long stop shots and break shots are most obvious, but i wouldn't be surprised if it's also causing some of my other other minor accuracy and repeatability problems on draw shots, for example.

one thing that occurs to me is that all of this was with a closed bridge, and maybe my bridge tilts the cue when i hit hard. i plan to try the same thing with an open bridge to rule that out. or maybe the act of pronating keeps me from clutching the cue and throwing it off line?

please understand that i am Not interested in continuing to shoot with this wacky stroke -- no matter How good the results! it really involves turning the cue almost a quarter-turn during the stroke, and that obviously just isn't going to work. i'm really interested in what diagnostically it says.

any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Hi Bob,

I can think of about 4 or 5 possibilities ---- and it's hard to speculate without seeing you shoot. Can you record yourself shooting and post a link to it here?
 
FranCrimi said:
Hi Bob,

I can think of about 4 or 5 possibilities ---- It's hard to speculate without seeing you shoot. Can you record yourself shooting and post a link to it here?
Click to expand...

Some shots from directly behind and along side would be especially helpful.
 
thanks for your interest!

the only thing i have right now is this short video, shot about a half year ago to get help with 14.1 patterns:
http://vimeo.com/25170988

tomorrow night i'll be in a room where i can usually get a table where i can shoot video, and i'll try to get some shots as you mention. maybe an expert can even spot something in the one above?
 
I will speculate that your wrist-hand pronation corrects a chicken wing. Try doing this when in the set position rather than when moving the cue.

Do it in front of a mirror and watch your elbow.
 
wigglybridge said:
i posted this in the straight pool forum, and several people suggested i put it up for discussion here, as well.

i've been trying this past week to improve my accuracy on what Matt Tetrault calls "straight-ins": long, straight shots from corner to corner diagonally down the table. despite my recent gains from Matt's help, if i hit those shots hard, my percentage on them is Really dismal. i have the same problem with break shots, but straight-ins eliminate any aiming confusion.

Tues night i practiced them for about 20 minutes, and i was making only 3-4 out of 10 tries over that period. i did a bunch of thinking later about why that might be, and made a list of things that might cause my stroke to go so far off, and ideas to fix it.

Wednesday night i shot them for about an hour, trying all of the things i'd listed. nothing changed. but it dawned on me that i was consistently missing them to the left of the pocket, and often by a good 2". that's at least information. and then i decided to try one more thing i'd seen somewhere in a book, or maybe online: that one difference between some pro strokes and amateurs was in the position of the 'vee' in the right-hand grip on the finish of the stroke. and i thought about the follow thru that many players have on a 9-ball break, Johnny Archer for example, where you see his forefinger practically rolled over on top of the cue and pointing at the head of the stack on his follow through. so i decided to consciously try to pronate my hand counterclockwise and see what happened.

well, what happened was simply unbelievable: i made 20 of those shots. in a row. then i decided maybe i should ease up a little on the pronation to see what would happen. i missed one. then went back to pronating and made another 10 in a row.

i spent about another 20 minutes hitting these shots in each diagonal to assure myself that it wasn't a fluke, and it wasn't. what is a 40% shot at best for me goes immediately to well over 95% if i pronate my wrist counterclockwise as i come forward. this is Not an accident.

now, this of course raises All Kindsa questions. is this pronation actually correcting the reverse habit that i may have had unconsciously? if so, fine, and i should work toward making That the natural way to stroke. but doesn't it seem more likely that it's compensating for something Else that's wrong and should be fixed?

so i wonder if this triggers any ideas about what causes this: my natural "hard" stroke must hit the cue ball slightly to the left of center, thus deflecting it slightly right, so the object ball goes left of the pocket. but as far as i can tell, it only happens when i'm hitting the ball hard; if i slow roll it, no problem. long stop shots and break shots are most obvious, but i wouldn't be surprised if it's also causing some of my other other minor accuracy and repeatability problems on draw shots, for example.

one thing that occurs to me is that all of this was with a closed bridge, and maybe my bridge tilts the cue when i hit hard. i plan to try the same thing with an open bridge to rule that out. or maybe the act of pronating keeps me from clutching the cue and throwing it off line?

please understand that i am Not interested in continuing to shoot with this wacky stroke -- no matter How good the results! it really involves turning the cue almost a quarter-turn during the stroke, and that obviously just isn't going to work. i'm really interested in what diagnostically it says.

any thoughts?
Click to expand...

sounds like your talking about my "V" grip technique, this is the shape that the index finger and thumb create on the follow through, thus enabling the cue to get through the cueball.
 
wigglybridge said:
thanks for your interest!

the only thing i have right now is this short video, shot about a half year ago to get help with 14.1 patterns:
http://vimeo.com/25170988

tomorrow night i'll be in a room where i can usually get a table where i can shoot video, and i'll try to get some shots as you mention. maybe an expert can even spot something in the one above?
Click to expand...

I'm looking forward to your most recent video but having seen the last one I'd like you to try something if you're up for it. Remember, this is just an experiment to see what happens: Set up the shot you were having trouble with and focus on increasing the length of your follow through by at least half the distance of your present follow through. Even try to double it if you can.

Oh, and go back to your original way of gripping the cue.

It may feel awkward at first, but give it a chance to kick in and see what happens. There's a possibility it may either bring out a flaw or correct a flaw. I'm curious to hear what happens.
 
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I wouldn't sweat the pronation. Johnny Archer twists during his stroke as well. Just because something isn't "the book way" doesn't mean it's not effective (as you've shown).

I like what Lee/Fran say. Implement a "V" backhand and extend your follow-through.

Dave
 
thank you for the comments.

NotDeadTed: yes, the video shows a slight chicken wing. Matt has helped me to correct that just recently. pronating my hand this much in set position, my wrist would be on top of the cue, so that's not viable.

Lee: i Did try a vee grip -- possibly inspired by one of your posts -- the other day to try and correct this without using the pronation, and seemed to help a bit. i'm trying a few grip changes in general, no slam-dunks yet!

FranCrimi: just to clarify, the pronation was during my stroke, and didn't change my grip at all. just for curiosity, i plan to video my stroke both ways, with & without the pronation, because Whatever is really happening when i pronate would seem to be a clue. on the follow-through idea: yes, i really do kinda stop my stroke short when i shoot harder, don't i? Matt also noticed that, and said i was decelerating as i hit hard shots (being fair to him, between his tournament schedule & my days at the same room we haven't had a full lesson yet, just his comments at the end of 2 14.1 games). anyway, i think you're onto something and will Definitely try that suggestion. it would be interesting if the pronation is just a way to trick myself into following through properly, eh?

again, thanks to everyone who has chimed in!
 
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Dave, the pronation is not my instinct, it was something i tried, to solve this problem. so i would actually have to work to cultivate it, as it needs to be Really extreme (1/4 turn) in order to get the results i mentioned. too extreme a departure from a normal set or stroke to be a realistic choice.

the funny thing about Archer: i had his 9-ball break stroke in mind when trying the pronation, which is counterclockwise. i thought it was just an artifact of the power break. then the other day, i came across this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D3CE5dMK5A

notice his wrist on the shot on the 10-ball at 4:25!
 
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wigglybridge said:
Dave, the pronation is not my instinct, it was something i tried, to solve this problem. so i would actually have to work to cultivate it, as it needs to be Really extreme (1/4 turn) in order to get the results i mentioned. too extreme a departure from a normal set or stroke to be a realistic choice.

the funny thing about Archer: i had his 9-ball break stroke in mind when trying the pronation, which is counterclockwise. i thought it was just an artifact of the power break. then the other day, i came across this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D3CE5dMK5A

notice his wrist on the shot on the 10-ball at 4:25!
Click to expand...
Exactly -- it's a part of his technique. This game is so hard, if you find something that works--- incorporate it. Don't worry "nontraditional" stuff.

Dave
 
I looked at your video again when got home on my computer. Seeing it this morning on my Iphone did not lend itself to a good analysis.

Most of the shots I am interested in seeing, (your back hand) are not on camera. I did not see a chicken wing as was mentioned by another poster, nor could I see any pronation in your grip. What I caught a glimpse of was your hand and wrist outside of the line of your elbow and shoulder (very slight) I consider a chicken wing when the hand is on the inside of the elbow shoulder. Yours is more of a sidearm (like Mcreedy) but again very slight. We really need to see your back arm and hand on all of the shots in another video.

What I did notice is that you tend to jump back in your stroke whenever you hit a ball firm. (Shot at 5:38) is the best example there were a few others on some draw shots earlier. Could you describe what is happening there?

I also saw a few times when you hit a ball firm with an open hand grip the cuetip come up a few feet. I suspect you are griping to hard at the end of the stroke on those shots.

I think these are the more important issues to address.
 
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relax your backhand and arm. Now hold your arm and hand straight, now curl your index finger from the knuckle only and touch the 2 pads of the index finger and thumb together. Now push the thumb down and the index finger upwards whilst still touching. this will lock the wrist and keep it from kicking out on the shot, it will lock the wrist. A technique i coached John Morra to do. Also showed spidey this. This will enable a "V" grip and a locked wrist, with no sideways movement. The shape of the hand side on, will now resemble Ronnie O' Sullivan's hand.

Lee
 
nice long night in a bar with one 9' table; unfortunately, no way could you possibly do video there. i think i learned a bunch of things... and i never imagined my stroke could have so many things to work on. the answer to your observations and questions and suggestions seems to be: "all of the above". seriously.

it is, of course, Very hard to observe yourself accurately; that's why all of you are so valuable: for your knowledge, sure, but also for your powers of observation.

the thing that really made a big difference came after about an hour of experimenting. i suddenly thought: hey, if this pronation thing helped, maybe my grip is pronated the other way to start with. and lo and behold, my normal grip at set position Does seem to be Slightly rotated clockwise from nominal. what's even more interesting is i noticed a tendency when it's in that position to rotate Further clockwise as i stroke forward. this makes the pronation i was using start to make more sense.

so i decided to try Starting with my grip rotated slightly ccw at set position, and maintaining that position during the stroke, thinking that it might have similar results to the rotation during the stroke, but be mechanically more reliable, and not subject to timing.

that worked very well, and if i kept a relaxed grip, followed through, and made sure not to clutch the cue at impact, my shotmaking improved greatly, and of course, my position play as a consequence.

in specific response to Tony, yes, i am conscious of having a slight McCready tilt, which i was calling a chicken wing, perhaps incorrectly. i have spent some time working on that, but it's still here 5 months after the video you saw, so it looks like a longterm project to correct that. also, yes, i am definitely gripping the cue too tightly, as you note. as for the "jumping back"; good question, wish i knew where i got that bad habit, it's another thing i'm going to need to fight. it seems strongly correlated with when i try to draw the ball, as if sometime in the past i got the weird idea that pulling back on the cue at the moment of impact had something to do with draw (btw, Danny Barouty does it too). it's clearly goofy, and i need to fix it. i suspect that this is what FranCrimi saw and prompted the following through suggestion.

Lee: thanks for your pointers on grip. i Think i understand, but i'll need to try those out with a cue tomorrow to make sure. what i was trying tonight was a "cradle" grip, letting the cue simply rest on the back 3 fingers, with the thumb and forefinger hanging down and trying to keep them completely inactive. a couple of people in the 14.1 forum had mentioned it, and said that a lot of snooker players, like Ronnie, use that. but then i was watching Ronnie a bit last night, and i can see him clearly using a vee grip with his back fingers completely off the cue on some shots, too. this entire episode has me thinking i really need to research the whole grip thing thoroughly to figure out what will work best for Me.

i still plan to do a video showing my stroke from some more useful angles. it turns out i'm on deck to entertain my girlfriend's family tomorrow, so it will probably have to wait until Wednesday.

many, many thanks to all of your for your thoughtful insights and help!
 
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Bob, very observant about Danny Barouty's stroke. Danny's a good friend of mine and I watch him play a lot.

Danny does one thing better than anybody I've ever seen. He is not afraid to put the cb right in the middle of a cluster and pop off 3 inch shots in all directions. I suspect that's where he developed pulling back his cue, otherwise he'd be double-hitting all over the place.

I'll have to see if he pulls back on longer shots. I don't recall seeing him do it on those.

Regarding following through, yes, I did see you cut it short on some shots, particularly long shots. Not following through or an abbreviated follow through can be an indication of some stroke flaws.

Sometimes if you create the desired result --- in this case --- longer follow through --- you can fix the inherent problems without having to go back and analyze and fix every little thing. That's why I suggested that you keep your original grip, including not pronating your hand. Change one thing at a time. I like the way your back hand looks on the cue in the video you posted. Just push your arm through a bit farther in your stroke and see what happens. If it doesn't help, you can go back and pronate your hand again, but I don't think that's your solution.
 
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here's some good video of Danny & Steve Lipske, showing him doing this:
http://vimeo.com/20002823

not that this means *i* should do it; Arnold Palmer single-handedly popularized golf when i was a kid, but his success was Despite the worst swing in golf, which you'd have been ill-advised to imitate (i speak from experience).

the follow-through is definitely helpful, and i am committed to developing that as a habit to replace the jerking-back thing. but it doesn't do the whole job. the pronation at set time -- it's not huge, btw -- literally revolutionizes my accuracy. that doesn't mean i am taking that as the final answer, but if it's Not the answer, it must be closely related to something else that is. it makes me instantly confident that i'm going to put the ball in the hole, and that i have some idea of where the cueball is going after that.

but as i said, i haven't fixed my mind in stone on this, and i Am going to do a video asap.

many thanks again for staying with me on this one!
 
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I have never seen Danny play. Thanks for the video.

He does have a unique style on some shots.
 
wigglybridge said:
here's some good video of Danny & Steve Lipske, showing him doing this:
http://vimeo.com/20002823

not that this means *i* should do it; Arnold Palmer single-handedly popularized golf when i was a kid, but his success was Despite the worst swing in golf, which you'd have been ill-advised to imitate (i speak from experience).

the follow-through is definitely helpful, and i am committed to developing that as a habit to replace the jerking-back thing. but it doesn't do the whole job. the pronation at set time -- it's not huge, btw -- literally revolutionizes my accuracy. that doesn't mean i am taking that as the final answer, but if it's Not the answer, it must be closely related to something else that is. it makes me instantly confident that i'm going to put the ball in the hole, and that i have some idea of where the cueball is going after that.

but as i said, i haven't fixed my mind in stone on this, and i Am going to do a video asap.

many thanks again for staying with me on this one!
Click to expand...

I looked at the video and didn't really see Danny do anything unorthodox. Is there something in particular that you spotted about his stroke that maybe I missed? Sometimes his cue came up in his follow through, but again, that comes from shooting a lot of close shots where you need to get the cue stick out of the way.
 
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