I was watching Allen Hopkins' stroke and was wondering if it is more accurate than a longer ones?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMJdV0kbUe8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMJdV0kbUe8
Allen Hopkins' short/push stroke.
- Thread starter LAMas
- Start date
I have a theory about Hopkins' stroke. The story goes that he has such a short backswing because of too-close walls around his home table when he was a kid.
Well, surely not all of the walls were that close to the table; he must have had plenty of opportunity to develop a longer backswing. And when he began playing outside his home, he wasn't immutably constrained to continue using the same stroke he used to avoid the one (or two?) close walls in his basement.
No, I think he used (and uses) that stroke because he discovered the beauty inherent in it. He undoubtedly tried much longer backswings. But I'm suggesting that he rationally chose the short backswing because he was able to do better with it than with a longer swing. Why would that be? Because, exactly as LAMas hypothesizes in post #1, the short backswing eliminates a lot of space in which the stroke can go off line going either backward or forward. He found that it optimized the accuracy of his stroke.
I'm surprised we don't see more strokes like Hopkins'.
Well, surely not all of the walls were that close to the table; he must have had plenty of opportunity to develop a longer backswing. And when he began playing outside his home, he wasn't immutably constrained to continue using the same stroke he used to avoid the one (or two?) close walls in his basement.
No, I think he used (and uses) that stroke because he discovered the beauty inherent in it. He undoubtedly tried much longer backswings. But I'm suggesting that he rationally chose the short backswing because he was able to do better with it than with a longer swing. Why would that be? Because, exactly as LAMas hypothesizes in post #1, the short backswing eliminates a lot of space in which the stroke can go off line going either backward or forward. He found that it optimized the accuracy of his stroke.
I'm surprised we don't see more strokes like Hopkins'.
The time that he takes preshot is aiming, aiming, then push. When he brakes the rack, he demonstrates that he can stroke to get speed, but on the other shots, he chooses not to.
I think that a beginner might adopt this style to perfect one's aiming ability without his stroke getting in the way...later one can use a longer stroke ala Mike Massey.
But it isn't a flashy ala Busty.
Just sayin.:wink::thumbup:
Yang Ching shun also got a short stroke with push...and his is as accurate as any world pool champion
I was watching Allen Hopkins' stroke and was wondering if it is more accurate than a longer ones?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMJdV0kbUe8
I read somewhere that years ago someone did a study and Hopkins stroke was the straightest of all.
The experts agree the greatest 9 ball player of all time was Wimpy, the greatest tournament winner from the Johnston City, Illinois days in the mid 60’s. Luther Lassiter had the shortest stroke you could imagine. It is shorter than Allen Hopkins short jab; in fact, the two strokes are about the same. These two strokes, extremely short produced two of the greatest players of all time. That is my stroke today, a non stroke. Mike Sigel, one of the top 5 greatest players of all time, same stroke. In fact, you can play, with no stroke, just plant, line up, pull back and hit. Most get a rhythm going and it helps them feel the shot doing strokes. You want a short soft stroke for the short easy shot. I very hard fast long stroke for the big force follow that has to go 3 rails and down table and a medium stroke in between. It is a rehearsal of shot to be.
Willie Hoppe was the greatest cueist of all time. He played 3-cushion billiards on a 10’ table. He hit balls bigger and heavier than your smaller cue ball and the cloth he played on back then was twice as slow as the modern billiard cloths are today, Simonis #1 vs. 300. Given all of that, you would have thought Hoppe would some big lumbering long looping stroke like Earl or Busty. Hoppe had the shortest stroke of all of them, it was 5” long. Could that have been the reason, he was the greatest?
The majority of pool players I see are hitting their shots twice as hard as they need to; their strokes are twice as long as they should be.
Their follow through should be twice as long as they now are. They have it all backwards. The balls are round; they will roll and get to the pocket, if you give them a chance to.
Hoppe had this very short 5” stroke, then boom, out came this huge long follow through.
:wink::thumbup:
Please, LAMas, when you use this material, say who wrote it.
There are analogies in at least two other sports. In baseball a batter doesn't have a backswing, only a short cocking motion before the swing forward. In golf, Golf Digest did a study on a golf swing with no backswing, and found that you did need a similar cocking motion of a few inches, but that starting the swing from near the top of the backswing produced better results - more accuracy and more consistent power - than the normal golf swing. it's just so unorthodox that no one wants to play with that swing on the course.
In general it seems it's easier to remember a position than a motion. So I wouldn't be surprised if reducing the back motion in a pool stroke to a short cocking motion produced better results than starting a full stroke with the tip near the cue ball.
In general it seems it's easier to remember a position than a motion. So I wouldn't be surprised if reducing the back motion in a pool stroke to a short cocking motion produced better results than starting a full stroke with the tip near the cue ball.
Mike Sigel *non Stroke* ???
Sorry, here you must have seen another player- Sigel for sure has everything- but not a short stroke.
In my opinion a *normal* stroke like many other players.
For most folks, a short bridge is easier to execute accurately. The longer the bridge, the more the cue can move laterally (sideways) on you if your stroke isn't perfectly consistent. Just go on YouTube and look at the old timers' strokes...most had MUCH shorter bridges than the average players today (nobody mentioned Buddy Hall, his bridge is a lot shorter than most, and he certainly knows his way around a table). Jim Rempe also kept his bridge closer to the cue ball than most. You get more "feel" with a longer bridge, as the shorter bridge doesn't transmit the vibration as much to your bridge hand. I notice that when I'm having trouble pocketing balls, my bridge hand unconsciously moves up closer...and voila, I start getting more accurate. The only reason I move back to a longer bridge is that I get more feel and seem to get better, more accurate action on my sidespin. Also, it's easier to see the shaft (with a closed bridge) if you've got a longer bridge. Of course, the players back then stood a little more erect, so they could see over their knuckles.
Yes, but it's not Allen's bridge length that we're talking about. I don't think his bridge length is outside the "normal" range. What's not "normal" with Allen is the extremely small or nonexistent backswing prior to the forward stroke at the cue ball.
I've never considered Sigel's stroke short either. It's certainly nothing like Hopkins' stroke. Then there's Strickland, one of the greatest 9-ball players ever, with one of the longest bridges and strokes ever.
Pei Wei Chang has a an even shorter stroke but he seems to be a bit more fluid. Fast forward to about 14 minutes in to see him play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG1f9STBpaA
What you're looking at is the video that was the predecessor to Accu-Stats. Two months later at the Rak 'M Up Classic, Accu-Stats began producing the pro pool videos that are classic pieces of pool history today. Pat Fleming got his inspiration on that cold day in December in Reno, Nevada. By the way he was a damn good commentator imo. 
P.S. When I watch Allen's short punch stroke, I think of that short punch that Cassius Clay used to knock out Sonny Liston. A short straight right to the jaw is still one of the most effective punches to put a man down. Delivered with the heel of the hand it can be lethal.
P.S. When I watch Allen's short punch stroke, I think of that short punch that Cassius Clay used to knock out Sonny Liston. A short straight right to the jaw is still one of the most effective punches to put a man down. Delivered with the heel of the hand it can be lethal.
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