How did Ralph Greenleaf "Aim"?

Pangit

Pangit

Banned
It's a useless question, no one knows. Pro's try to explain how they "Aim". What's this fixation with aiming? It's a personal thing. There are many Great's with completely different strokes and "aiming" methods. It's like DNA, do what comes natural. Try to copycat someone else...ain't gonna turn out good.
 
Pangit said:
It's a useless question, no one knows. Pro's try to explain how they "Aim". What's this fixation with aiming? It's a personal thing. There are many Great's with completely different strokes and "aiming" methods. It's like DNA, do what comes natural. Try to copycat someone else...ain't gonna turn out good.
Click to expand...

Ralph got drunk and let the alcohol do the aiming. :grin-square:
 
Neil said:
Funny you should mention Greenleaf for your attempt at slam on aiming systems. It has been stated on here a number of times that Hal Houle learned how to aim from Ralph, and expanded on it over the years. So, Ralph used a version of CTE. Bet that wasn't what you were expecting, was it??
Click to expand...

Is there even a shred of objective evidence that "Ralph used a version of CTE"?
 
Neil said:
Funny you should mention Greenleaf for your attempt at slam on aiming systems. It has been stated on here a number of times that Hal Houle learned how to aim from Ralph, and expanded on it over the years. So, Ralph used a version of CTE. Bet that wasn't what you were expecting, was it??
Click to expand...

I didn't read it at a slam on aiming systems... just a slam on people constantly bringing 'how does _____ aim?" and I agree.. I don't care how others aim. We all know there are many ways to put the ball in the hole, who cares how _______ did/does it. I'm more interested in how _____ played position/patterns.
 
Neil said:
If you mean a written statement from Ralph, notorized by at least 4 living presidents, then no. If you are willing to take Hal's word for it, then yes. I'm pretty sure Hal knows where he learned it, although many on here would naturally call him a liar.
Click to expand...

Hal never said he learned to aim from Ralph Greenleaf. In fact, he stated that Ralph was an "idiot savant" when it came to aiming and ball pocketing. Hal claims CTE was invented by no other than himself.

However, there are two sides to every story. Check out Jimmy Moore:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc2Q5lh_VRk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHtRjbHZU2g

From what I've gathered (from Blackjack and others), Jimmy was friends with a guy named Fez Kasson (RIP) who, like Hal, was also a road-partner of Greenleaf. According to Fez, Ralph "discovered the system for everything" and passed it to him (who later showed Jimmy). Now, whether Ralph figured it out or learned it from Hal-- we'll never know beyond Hal's word it's his.

Either way, CTE is a super-old system. It's been a hot topic on azb over the last few years. However, the system is older than many of us have been alive and that's a fact.

So, you have two legs from Greenleaf: Fez and Hal. People surrounding both learned how to pivot. Who TRULY knows which of the three invented it (or if they got it from someone before them). That's the earliest it can be tracked (in its current form).
 
Last edited:
Pangit said:
It's a useless question, no one knows. Pro's try to explain how they "Aim". What's this fixation with aiming? It's a personal thing. There are many Great's with completely different strokes and "aiming" methods. It's like DNA, do what comes natural. Try to copycat someone else...ain't gonna turn out good.
Click to expand...

Because Aiming is the first thing you do. Also the world is built on copying. There is a famous tennis school that turns out champions and most of the time the students aren't allowed to hit balls. They have to copy the technique of champions who came before them.

And I forget who the tennis coach was who PROVED that he could take people who never played tennis in their life and have them in possession of a credible stroke in 30 minutes just by having them imitate his movements.

Why wouldn't you copy what works for someone else? Don't forget that DNA is also a copy.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Hal never said he learned to aim from Ralph Greenleaf. In fact, he stated that Ralph was an "idiot savant" when it came to aiming and ball pocketing. Hal claims CTE was invented by no other than himself.

However, there are two sides to every story. Check out Jimmy Moore:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc2Q5lh_VRk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHtRjbHZU2g

From what I've gathered (from Blackjack and others), Jimmy was friends with a guy named Fez Kasson (RIP) who, like Hal, was also a road-partner of Greenleaf. According to Fez, Ralph "discovered the system for everything" and passed it to him (who later showed Jimmy). Now, whether Ralph figured it out or learned it from Hal-- we'll never know beyond Hal's word it's his.

Either way, CTE is a super-old system. It's been a hot topic on azb over the last few years. However, the system is older than many of us have been alive and that's a fact.

So, you have two legs from Greenleaf: Fez and Hal. People surrounding both learned how to pivot. Who TRULY knows which of the three invented it (or if they got it from someone before them). That's the earliest it can be tracked (in its current form).
Click to expand...

Fred Agnir may or may not remember this.

I think it was SBE 2003 and Fred and me and several others were standing around a table discussing the aiming systems Hal taught back them. Mostly Fred was demonstrating because he is the one who talked to Hal most and had retained a lot of the various methods. Anyway I clearly remember an old man, 65/70ish standing there and watching who spoke up after a while and said that what Fred was showing was similar to what he had learned in the poolroom back in the 60s.

My personal belief is that these methods became "alternative" because it was simply easier to use Ghost Ball in books. What's easier than GB to explain? Why even try to explain something else when you are writing books aimed at the amateur players which is mostly what we got since the 20s through the 90s?

But as we know there were a few books here and there that touched on aiming methods other than GB from the 70s onward but none of them went far because the main books had distribution and real name players listed as authors/co-authors. Fast forward to today and even niche guys like Freddy Bentivegna can get their specialty books on the market and distributed. That's a huge difference in my opinion.

I would bet a lot of money that had Robert Byrne been able to write about some of these alternative aiming systems in a way that any beginner could pick it up as easy as GB then it wouldn't even be a debate today.

Of course Robert might also say that he knew of them in the 70s and dismissed them....... :-)
 
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1338936&postcount=3
HAL HOULE. I TEACH PROFESSIONAL AIMING SYSTEMS. INSTRUCTORS DO NOT HAVE A CLUE ABOUT AIMING SYSTEMS. EVERY TOP PLAYER USES THE SAME PRO AIMING SYSTEM. THAT INCLUDES REYES, SOUQUET, ARCHER, ORTMAN, BUSTAMANTE, AND ON AND ON. I DO NOT CHARGE YOU FOR ANYTHING, IT IS SIMPLE ENOUGH THAT I CAN TEACH YOU OVER THE PHONE. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE. MY PHONE NUMBER IS 484 623 4144
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Neil said:
... It has been stated on here a number of times that Hal Houle learned how to aim from Ralph, and expanded on it over the years. So, Ralph used a version of CTE. Bet that wasn't what you were expecting, was it??
Click to expand...

See below.

SpiderWebComm said:
Hal never said he learned to aim from Ralph Greenleaf. In fact, he stated that Ralph was an "idiot savant" when it came to aiming and ball pocketing. Hal claims CTE was invented by no other than himself.
Click to expand...

I can corroborate what Spidey says here. In my conversations with Hal, he used exactly the same description of Greenleaf -- an "idiot savant" -- brilliant at what he did, but he had no idea how he did it. And, yes, Hal claimed that he personally invented CTE and that he spent 10 years working to develop it.

As to the possible Fez Kasson link, I am ignorant.

JB Cases said:
... I clearly remember an old man, 65/70ish standing there and watching who spoke up after a while and said that what Fred was showing was similar to what he had learned in the poolroom back in the 60s. ...
Click to expand...

Fred was demonstrating other systems of Hal's, not CTE, right?
 
1Hole_Nut said:
Aim'd with hes >>> Eyes <<< :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Yep, in the old days you just hit the ball at the point where it went into the pocket.then remembered how you hit it in case you ever had to do it again. Why I even remember people who just went and played pool without even seeing the DVD's or reading any of the non-existent books about "Aiming systems". I think they just played better players, won and lost money and got better. Of course it took a lot time and practice.
 
Paul Dayton said:
Yep, in the old days you just hit the ball at the point where it went into the pocket.then remembered how you hit it in case you ever had to do it again. Why I even remember people who just went and played pool without even seeing the DVD's or reading any of the non-existent books about "Aiming systems". I think they just played better players, won and lost money and got better. Of course it took a lot time and practice.
Click to expand...

http://bobharriscustomcues.com/index.php?page=cues&command=ByMaker&search=Paul Dayton

R U the same Paul Dayton? That must be the prettiest cue I've ever seen. Why do cue maker's cover up their "work" with wrap?... Ebony with Spalted Tamarind. I saw that cue on the net about 4 years ago. and had a local guy in AC "Bong", make me "copy" with with a few inlay changes. I even imported the wood at a premium price with tariff's . http://exoticwood.biz/
 
Last edited:
And in the really old days they played with maces and straw rails. Damn all that innovation.

Hell I used to play on a table that rolled off both ways on every shot and we didn't have chalk and tips were made from old shoe leather........

Everything was better in the old days.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top