HUGE breakthrough, maybe it'll help you

N

nrhoades

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For the newer players:

I've been hacking away at narrowing down my stroke for the past 4 years. This is not an old story; a lot of other players do the same thing. I've also been trying to keep a memory of my progress. Professional coaches really help, but unfortunately they can't feel the same things you feel, and therefore can only guide you (though can guide you very well).

From all of the years of trying everything in and out of the book, I've definitely found the biggest distinction between black and white in my pool career. It is the amount of height you need to put into your elbow in your stroking arm. It should be much higher than is initially comfortable.

I'm confident that most inaccurate shots resulting from poor stroke technique is the result of the body recruiting motion from the rotator cuff (or shoulder). Ive noticed that even a slight twitch of the shoulder before impact drastically misaligns the tip position. I've discovered that there is actually a certain point where by raising by elbow high enough, by body no longer feels the subconscious urge to want to move my rotator cuff. This point, I remember, did NOT feel natural the first 5 minutes I discovered it, but got used to it very quickly when it realized that it was more accurate than anything else it every tried. From this, you don't need much forward-going energy at all, the cue takes care of all of the power itself. After a while you start losing the habit of throwing your arm into the shot.

Now, the humbling thing is that this advice has been told to me over and over again, and I've tried and tried to accomplish it, with and without advanced players watching me. The problem is that the advanced players don't have nerves in MY muscle and they can't give me advice on MY physiology. I had to stretch my limb and muscle to an unfamiliar position to discover it. Before this I still rotated my shoulder into the shot, but it was such a tiny amount that I could't even notice it when I watched my own video tapes, let alone my coach.

Now when I watch the AccuStats videos, when I watch other great players play, I can clearly see that this is how they stroke, or at least, its the foundation of it. Any shoulder movement by them is just recovery of the cue after the stroke has happened.

I am hoping that by sharing my progress in this way it will encourage those still hunting for their stroke that there is actually a bright light at the end of the tunnel, and that all of the advice given to them will eventually converge.
 
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nrhoades said:
For the newer players:

I've been hacking away at narrowing down my stroke for the past 4 years. This is not an old story; a lot of other players do the same thing. I've also been trying to keep a memory of my progress. Professional coaches really help, but unfortunately they can't feel the same things you feel, and therefore can only guide you (though can guide you very well).

From all of the years of trying everything in and out of the book, I've definitely found the biggest distinction between black and white in my pool career. It is the amount of height you need to put into your elbow in your stroking arm. It should be much higher than is initially comfortable.

I'm confident that most inaccurate shots resulting from poor stroke technique is the result of the body recruiting motion from the rotator cuff (or shoulder). Ive noticed that even a slight twitch of the shoulder before impact drastically misaligns the tip position. I've discovered that there is actually a certain point where by raising by elbow high enough, by body no longer feels the subconscious urge to want to move my rotator cuff. This point, I remember, did NOT feel natural the first 5 minutes I discovered it, but got used to it very quickly when it realized that it was more accurate than anything else it every tried. From this, you don't need much forward-going energy at all, the cue takes care of all of the power itself. After a while you start losing the habit of throwing your arm into the shot.

Now, the humbling thing is that this advice has been told to me over and over again, and I've tried and tried to accomplish it, with and without advanced players watching me. The problem is that the advanced players don't have nerves in MY muscle and they can't give me advice on MY physiology. I had to stretch my limb and muscle to an unfamiliar position to discover it. Before this I still rotated my shoulder into the shot, but it was such a tiny amount that I could't even notice it when I watched my own video tapes, let alone my coach.

Now when I watch the AccuStats videos, when I watch other great players play, I can clearly see that this is how they stroke, or at least, its the foundation of it. Any shoulder movement by them is just recovery of the cue after the stroke has happened.

I am hoping that by sharing my progress in this way it will encourage those still hunting for their stroke that there is actually a bright light at the end of the tunnel, and that all of the advice given to them will eventually converge.
Click to expand...



i teach a technique called having a high elbow, i was teaching Danny Olsen at the bca, he just won the master 8 ball and 2nd in the 9 ball at the vnea, and i have been showing Corey Deull this technique while we was filming the bonus ball.
 
some other benefits too

nrhoades said:
For the newer players:

I've been hacking away at narrowing down my stroke for the past 4 years. This is not an old story; a lot of other players do the same thing. I've also been trying to keep a memory of my progress. Professional coaches really help, but unfortunately they can't feel the same things you feel, and therefore can only guide you (though can guide you very well).

From all of the years of trying everything in and out of the book, I've definitely found the biggest distinction between black and white in my pool career. It is the amount of height you need to put into your elbow in your stroking arm. It should be much higher than is initially comfortable.

I'm confident that most inaccurate shots resulting from poor stroke technique is the result of the body recruiting motion from the rotator cuff (or shoulder). Ive noticed that even a slight twitch of the shoulder before impact drastically misaligns the tip position. I've discovered that there is actually a certain point where by raising by elbow high enough, by body no longer feels the subconscious urge to want to move my rotator cuff. This point, I remember, did NOT feel natural the first 5 minutes I discovered it, but got used to it very quickly when it realized that it was more accurate than anything else it every tried. From this, you don't need much forward-going energy at all, the cue takes care of all of the power itself. After a while you start losing the habit of throwing your arm into the shot.

Now, the humbling thing is that this advice has been told to me over and over again, and I've tried and tried to accomplish it, with and without advanced players watching me. The problem is that the advanced players don't have nerves in MY muscle and they can't give me advice on MY physiology. I had to stretch my limb and muscle to an unfamiliar position to discover it. Before this I still rotated my shoulder into the shot, but it was such a tiny amount that I could't even notice it when I watched my own video tapes, let alone my coach.

Now when I watch the AccuStats videos, when I watch other great players play, I can clearly see that this is how they stroke, or at least, its the foundation of it. Any shoulder movement by them is just recovery of the cue after the stroke has happened.

I am hoping that by sharing my progress in this way it will encourage those still hunting for their stroke that there is actually a bright light at the end of the tunnel, and that all of the advice given to them will eventually converge.
Click to expand...


Getting very low puts tension in the shoulder and largely immobilizes it. It also reduces the parallex and effects of your eyes being in slightly different positions on different shots. A lot of advantages to getting very low to the table. Unfortunately there are disadvantages too. Namely the table is too low and this is fairly rough on your body when you are young, brutal when you get older. In my teens and early twenties I suffered a lot of pain in both knees, figured my knees would be shot by the time I was thirty. Quit playing 60-80 hours of pool a week and my knees quit hurting and are still fine decades later.

Now I simply can't play any length of time low to the table. Sometimes I do for a few minutes and things seem like old times. Then my body reminds me that I'm a lot older and gimpier!

Hu
 
Thanks for sharing this. I have felt like I'm stroking through better when
I raised my elbow higher, but have never seen it discussed. All the better players in my area don't seem to have their elbow as high, so I was left wondering.

It's nice to see that this could be the right direction for me. I look forward to reading more as this thread progresses.
 
Does the high elbow make the cue not level and angle downwards ? If my forearm is already at 90 degrees how do I make my elbow higher and keep a level cue ?
 
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How?

nrhoades said:
It is the amount of height you need to put into your elbow in your stroking arm. It should be much higher than is initially comfortable.
Click to expand...

And what is it you do to achieve this? Raise your elbow more during the back stroke? Do you want your elbow to go high during the stroke or are you starting with it high in your initial stance? If your chin is low and on the cue, I guess your elbow would start high. If you hold your cue with your grip hand in different locations forward or back, I guess it would change your elbow height. If you jack up the back end of your cue, your elbow would be higher (but I doubt that's what you meant). More specifics please.

Thanks
Fatz
 
Hu made a good point...the old bod not as flexible at 68 as it was at 28. Bursitus in the shoulder as well. BUT...I play on. Pool makes me move joints, which I wouldn't normally move, because it hurts a bit.
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
And what is it you do to achieve this? Raise your elbow more during the back stroke? Do you want your elbow to go high during the stroke or are you starting with it high in your initial stance? If your chin is low and on the cue, I guess your elbow would start high. If you hold your cue with your grip hand in different locations forward or back, I guess it would change your elbow height. If you jack up the back end of your cue, your elbow would be higher (but I doubt that's what you meant). More specifics please.

Thanks
Fatz
Click to expand...

Fatz,

[How do I achieve this?] Imagine that once you are down on the table, some straps a belt around your elbow and pulls it straight up. If they keep pulling you will start to feel your shoulder being stretched backwards. Anymore and you would yell "uncle"! The point is when you first feel the stretch. I actively use my muscles to raise my elbow regardless of how I'm holding the cue.


There has been an accumulation of a lot of other parts of my stroke that I've learned along the way (sorry for excluding them. But I wanted to emphasize that the high elbow was the cornerstone of them all.)

Firstly, yes, posting a video would be the best response to this. But I don't have access to one right now.

I start with a high elbow, and I play very low. My chin is on the cue (when I set I think my chin touches the cue.)

I stand maybe a little more square than not, but not as square as a snooker player. My bridge hand is open, flat, and I stick my thumb up high to form a very good valley (the cue touches the side of the first knuckle of my thumb). I remember that when I first started experimenting with stances I tried a lot of painful stances. This one feels fine, either because I found my own groove or because I stretched it out. I don't know. But it is comfortable.

I set with my forearm a little PAST 90 degrees. This is not textbook, and I'm sure some people will grumble at this, but I think it holds a lot of merit. My final contact tip position is more consistent. I think this may be true, because it guarantees that when your tip comes in contact with the cue ball, it is traveling slightly downwards. I also know that since I already swing past 90 degrees, I don't have the urge to try to generate more power in my forward stroke, which translates to a moving shoulder.

My tip follows through maybe no more than the width or two of a ball. I don't really need any more than that because my tip already did its job. My forearm his already hit my body at this point anyway, so it can't go more forward unless I do something else.

I use a long bridge. With a high elbow, I gather all of my energy from the length of my bridge with my tricep. I try to avoid adding anymore energy during my forward stroke if I can help it. If I have to I make sure it is only the bicep.

A long bridge also allows me to aim dead center on a ball, and THEN use mostly back hand english, or pivot, to add spin. I first set with center ball, do a couple practice strokes. Then pivot to my desired tip position, practice strokes, and then the final stroke. Sometimes I will just fall onto the ball with the desired tip position, sometimes I will separate the actions. What this DOES do is allows me to actively think about my tip position without interfering with anything else. In other words, I can stay down on the shot for a minute if I want, moving the tip around, and resetting with center ball if I get lost. I used to feel that I had a timer, and that when I went down, I only had a few seconds to shoot before my brain got lost and was a guaranteed miss. Now I can take my time and its stress free.

I also am not afraid of English. I use spin for almost every shot, and the long bridge gives me the confidence that my squirt is minimized. I can get perfect tip position on my cue ball with a long bridge and a high elbow. A lot of spin is much better for traveling around the table then hitting hard.

What else. Oh, a high elbow also has improved my break shots.

I hope this was enough extra detail.
 
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Thanks for sharing this. My latest stroke experiments have lead me to a similar discovery. When I get into a good stance (low & snooker-like), I feel like my elbow is much higher & in line with the cue (rather than the low & tucked behind me position that I suffered with for years). In fact, at times it feels like my elbow has a balloon tied to it. LOL. My follow-thru is more straight (grip hand into my armpit/chest area).

BTW, a major component of this lifted right elbow is a lowered left shoulder/elbow. By rotating your shoulders about your head, you put your shoulders in a tension that locks the cue into a straight line.

Try to emulate this woman, if at all possible (study these pics for a while & see what you discover):
mid-90's:
snooker.jpg

now:
2011AllisonFisherForWorldMixedDoubles.jpg


EDIT: Things I key on in those pics:
* Rotation of spine (look at hips versus shoulders)
* Bridge hand, right eye, right shoulder, right elbow, grip hand all on a single plane.
* Left shoulder down & near left jaw (present day Alison has a more relaxed left shoulder)
* Right shoulder up & behind right ear/eye
 
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once upon a time

pwd72s said:
Hu made a good point...the old bod not as flexible at 68 as it was at 28. Bursitus in the shoulder as well. BUT...I play on. Pool makes me move joints, which I wouldn't normally move, because it hurts a bit.
Click to expand...


Once upon a time I used the side of my chin as an anchor point on many shots. The beard helped the cue slide easily even with a good bit of pressure. That anchor point is long gone!

Hu
 
I'm just a beginner hack, but it seems to me that if your forearm is already at 90 degrees the elbow is not going to go any higher unless you angle the cue tip downward ?

Is it possible when you lower your body stance the elbow will appear to be higher, but only in relation to the body ?
 
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